Kevin's Watch

very nice post Tulizar!

Nathan said:

If he takes away free will on certain occasions, what's to stop him taking it away whenever he feels like, at a whim, as I said. The doctrine of Free Will states that everyone has total free will to do whatever they want. If he breaks the rules once, he'll break them again.


Ok, sorry it took so long to respond to this. A. God never 'removes' free will. He can, however, create stimuli/situations that can cause you to react in certain ways, or B. He can trick Satan into manipulating you (Lucifer does not have true free will, as he is a fallen angel created by God to serve)

No offense, folks, but many of the arguments I am hearing from you, based on your lack of belief in God, is that God is 'flawed', or that you can judge the actions of a being (if he does in fact exist) whose intellect exists on a level none of us could comprehend. Lastly, God is God, whose varying titles include Almighty, Alpha and Omega, and strangely, my favorite, I AM. If he does in fact exist, and He created the entire universe and everything in it, including us (as His children) then judging Him based on his level of involvement is absurd. Who are you to say He doesnt help us every day? Who can decipher His motivations, reasoning, and decisions. NO ONE. (If He exists, HE HAS NO EQUAL!) No one living or dead, or even His own Son, have the right to question Him. Perhaps that is what upsets folks the most. The concept that somewhere out there resides a being who has the right to decide if we live up to HIS standard, and what to do with us if we fail to lead righteous lives. As I have said before, I do not follow any particular doctrine or orthodoxy, yet I feel secure in my belief in God, and my place with Him. Why? Because aside from all the crap people preach these days, I understand one simple truth. The Gospel is not taught in a church, but in the Torah and the New Testament. There is no revisionist progression, no Catholic Dogma to follow. All of God's truths exist in His handy instruction manual, the Holy Bible. Anything taught outside of it are human creations (or Satan's). That is my belief, not to infringe on anyone else's belief, but to explain my own.

I respect the right of every human being to choose what they believe, but a rebuttal needs to include more than 'well, then God is wrong because He lets this happen'. He doesnt 'let it happen', we do.

End of rant.

Sorry folks.

That's one of the best pro-God arguments I've read, IMHO. I like your attitude, Greekadakas. I've tried to convey before, though less eloquently, that if God does exist, how can we possibly assume we understand him? Well said, sir.

Why thank you my friend!!! I was worried it might have been a little over the top, but the whole "I have the right to judge something I dont even believe exists" bit was wearing on me. Many of the points being discussed here, (Nathan, Caer and UV, to note a few) have been intellectually stimulating, and I respect everyone even more than I did before this, but the concept of an ant judging the elephant sort of confuses me.

GREEKADAKAS wrote:I respect everyone even more than I did before this

And your respect engenders respect

As far as I can recall, none of us have met God personally, so none of us know if he's "beyond our understanding". Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. Maybe he's dead, maybe he's doing things behind the scenes. The truth is there's no way of knowing--period. Conversely, I don't know if God exists, yet I'm an atheist. Logically, we'd all be agnostics, but, as I've read from this thread, we all have very personal attitudes/reasons guiding us toward our chosen perception.

Maybe there's one God. Maybe there's a bunch of Gods. Maybe we're not the chosen ones and dogs are, and the Gods all look like cocker spaniels. Your guess is as good as mine. Unless you're dead. Then let me know.

Furls Fire wrote:You named this thread, "Can we tell the truth". Well, when it comes to God, the "truth" you speak of comes from "faith". Belief in God comes from a person's inner soul, heart. There is no way to prove God. No way to instill in someone a belief they simply don't believe.

The Bible is a book of interpretation, metaphor. It comes from such an ancient text that most of it has been miss translated over the 2000 years it has been in existence. Many have bent it to suit their own designs, such as Phelps, who uses God's Word to promote hate and violence. If you simply use the Bible to prove or disprove God's existence, you will fall short both ways. Instead, use it as it was meant to be used...a history book depicting the lives of those who believed in God. A history book depicting the life of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice. But, remember, that history may not be "literal". The Bible has been written and re-written more times than can be counted. The Bible can't make you believe or disbelieve, it can't prove anything. That belief lives or lives not inside you. And no one can make another believe, no one can make another possess faith, no one can put God in someone's heart.

In my own heart, I believe with all that is me, that there is a God, and that He sent His Son to live as a man 2000 years ago. And that Jesus sacrificed Himself for us. Whether you believe that or not is not for me to decide. As it is not for you to decide that I should not believe as I do. This "truth" you seek? You will not find it anywhere but in your own heart.

Amen!!

I have never taken the bible as a literal resource. Men were professionally crafted as scribes in the old testament .. quite often important verses were recorded years after events happening. The same is true of the New Testament where the gospels were recorded many years after the presence and resurrection of Christ.

However, you only need to read the gospels to feel the presence of Christ. I have friends that believe in the "Universal Mind" they do not believe in orthodox Christianity or much close to it .. but they do revere Christ .. not as the son of God but as an icon of love.

I ask anyone to read the Christ story as recorded in the New Testament to not feel the truth that is there.

For those of you who do not have an interest in Christ .. it is important to remember something that many Christians so often neglect .. the resurrection of Christ.

Do you know anyone who has been dead and buried and left in a tomb for time .. to rise 3 days later?? To walk among people .. to eat infront of them .. fish and honeycombe (Luke 24:42) he appeared and stayed among his disciples/friends for 40 days! Then infront of a multitude of 3000 people he ascended into heaven!! At which time 2 angels appeared and bade them:

The Bible wrote:"Ye men of Gallillee why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

Either this is true or it just isnt! Either it happened or it was an elaborate hoax perpetrated to bring the the most likely perpetrators sudden and swift and unpleasant deaths! The Church that Christ established was in its infancy and not a political entity .. in terms we refer to political entities today.

There was no political or economic power in the hands of the disciples and apostles. There is no conceivable gain to somehow fabricate such an elaborate hoax.

The truth is inside as Furls eloquently asserts.

This is either fact or fiction ... it cant be both .. If it is a lie ..then it can not be true

It can be known .. to those who seek much is given To those who have ears to hear they may hear .. to those who have eyes to see they will see and understand.

This is freedom!
T

Sheol wrote: Allot of the questions you ask religous poeple are dodged and never answered right. They wont accept the facts and they are really closed minded. So here is the topic. If you don't have complete faith in god here is the place to ask questions and if someone thinks they can answer it they can try.

It occurs to me that a person who believed in God would by definition have to have a more open mind than someone who didn't believe in God.


At any rate, if you ask questions of someone that hasn't studied the Word well enough to answer you, then you will have them dodging and not answering right. I don't see how this is a valid reflection of God however. It's merely one of His believers that needs to learn more about the Bible.

I do think that the poll is fairly accurate. Many people do believe in God, but most do not. Also most people that do not believe in God are pretty aggressive about it, while most people that do believe in God are pretty passive about it. Taken to its logical conclusion, more people are heartily at work making arguments to dismantle Christianity than there are Christians making counter-arguments against this dismantling. All of these people learn from each other and add them to their own repertoire of debate data from which to draw from. It is very rare that someone comes up with this stuff on their own and it starts from a very early age. "Yeah, my dad says Jews are stupid because they think that they're God's chosen people. He says they're arrogant."

Question: Do you believe that time-travel is possible?
Answer: What's the difference whether I believe it or not.

To put it another way, how does it really impact you if someone believes in God or not? Why is it such a big issue that it would make you call someone closed-minded and get upset about it?

Question: Do you believe that meditating makes you a better person?
Answer: What's the difference whether I believe it or not. But if it does, then what's the harm?

If by believing in God, people become better citizens, commit less crime, are less petty, more thoughtful, more compassionate, and generous with their money, then how does this harm you in the least?

I've been to a great many forums in my internet travels and I have to say that this is the most difficult forum to express Christianity. I can see no other alternative that to believe it all the more because if there is no truth in it, then why does it make so many people so uncomfortable? Why is it that the only name that is taken in vain is God's name? I can tell you the answer. It is rebellion of the heart. God said don't do this, so people do it out of spite. No one ever says Flower jerk, or Janet Reno!, or Dan Dammit! Or anything except Jesus Christ! and God Dammit! And sometimes with an additional word in between them for added color. I see the same rebellion of the heart here. People almost seem to HATE God here.

Maybe it's this way with anything & the world of Thomas Covenant The Land is very shallow when looking at how people simply accept their place in the world. Perhaps there should be more infighting and envy or bitterness at eachother when someone goes to training and becomes something more. Maybe in the 60' hippies were hated because a lot of the adults really wanted to do those things or were so appalled by their own lack of desire to do it that they felt it a mockery of their own morality.

I see so much preaching for tolerance in society that I find this hypocrisy quite interesting. Don't be racist. Accept gay people. Prostitutes are people too. But the moment someone says they believe in God, they're an uneducated idiot that doesn't see the truth, blinded by the light of lies, and ignorant to the teaching of science. All of a sudden, you're treated like 'one of those people'. "Hey how's it going!? What do you think of this Zeph?" "Oh, you're one of those people. I'll be sure to talk with you less from now on. And my respect level for anything you ever say in the future has just diminished to slightly above a homeless rapist laying in his own defication."

The truth is that I don't see myself as any better than you. If anything, a Christian with a little knowledge under their belt is going to realize that they are far worse than you because they continue to sin all the time even when they know the price that was paid for that sin.

I guess what I'm saying is that maybe all these reasons you've learned in your life about why Christians suck is a bunch of nonsense compared to actually reading the Bible, going to church, and finding out the truth for yourself what all this is about. I mean, take a whole year, and attend just 7 different churches, only 7 times, less than 2 months of sundays. Open the Bible & read John. Ask some people that you know what other chapters might be interesting to read, like the cool stories about fighting with swords against outrageous odds. I'm not asking you to convert. I'm asking you to look at Christians and the Bible. Most people who attack Christianity have never picked up a Bible; they've only picked up arguements about why they should hate Christianity. "Yeah, my dad says Jews are stupid because they think that they're God's chosen people. He says they're arrogant."

I mean even from a scientific standpoint you have to admit that being ignorant on the subject matter does not make for a good belief system or unbelief system as the case may be. You can't just say you don't believe in time-travel without having at least a little knowledge about it.
"Do you believe in time-travel?"
"No"
"Why not?"
"Because I don't."
"Yes, but why?"
"Because people have told me it was stupid all my life so I believe them."
"But do you know anything about it?"
"No. What does it matter?"
"Well, it doesn't, it's just time-travel, it's not like you're calling someone stupid for believing a certain way, having a certain nationality, or believing in God."

It's easy to see your own point of view when it is the most popular. Even if it isn't right, like calling people niggers or making them ride on the back of the bus in the 60's, it's still easier than trying to learn about something & just deal with it by ignorance. Who cares if you hurt some nigger's feelings or make the blackie feel bad? It's just a stupid coon. Besides, I'd be unpopular if I learned about them & determined that they were people too, and in some cases very good people. That would make my life harder. I wouldn't be as easily accepted by all my friends... friends that call people niggers and tell them to drink out of their own water fountain & pee in their own bathroom, dog!

Oh well. I can't change the world. Used to think I could. Now I can just try to wake up one person to how popular opinion isn't necessarily a knowledgable one. It would be nice to see just one person go to church 7 times in a year and read just 1/10th of the Bible, getting a sample from different parts of it. Will anyone do this? Or will we just continue to cast stones from our ignorance and look down on people that wish merely to make the world a better place.

It's so true Avatar. I used to do that, when I considered myself a Christian. Now I look back with shame and the way I lived for those 3 years.

Sum sui generis
Vs

Aah well, don't feel bad man. At least you saw the light

Later
--Avatar

Historically, it is the monotheistic religions that have practiced religious intolerance. I've never heard or seen pagans going into the streets and accosting people wearing crosses, but I've sure seen christians do it to people who display tokens of other faiths.

That's some interesting stuff I hadn't really thought about before. Why do you think monotheistic religions are less tolerant than the polytheistic? Fear that their members will be converted to the 'more appealing' religions? A desire to 'save' the people they were killing by stopping them from sinning even more than they already had?
I don't know, maybe you have a theory?

Okay...I voted "yes" here...thought I'd put in my two cents...
I am a Christian, I believe that God sent His Son to die for us, so that our sins could be forgiven and that we could enter into heaven...I don't believe it is works that get us there, but faith, but we show God love by being obedient. I also believe that no one may come to the Father (i.e. go to Heaven) except through Jesus. Call this close minded, politically incorrect, or whatever you will; I'll still believe it...but it doesn't -- and shouldn't -- mean I'll love anyone less who doesn't believe the same thing...just because you disagree with someone doesn't mean you stop loving them.

One question a lot of people have is "if there is an all-powerful, loving God, why is there so much pain?" Here's what I believe:
1. When God created us, He didn't want mindless, choiceless robots to follow him. He wanted us to truly LOVE Him, and the only way that could happen is for us to have the choice. This brought in the problem of sin. In order for us to have the choice to love him, we also have to have the choice to NOT love him. Everything sinful we do is unloving toward God, because His very nature is sinless, and therefore He cannot tolerate sin. Basically, God could take away all pain and suffering, but the fact that there IS pain and suffering is a result of sin being in the world, and sin is in the world because we need free will. So, to completely erradicate all that pain, suffering, and sin, God would need to take away free will (and that doesn't sound very nice, does it?)
2. God allows Believers to experience pain and suffering, because it teaches us, and helps us grow...if we weren't sinful, we wouldn't need that, because we wouldn't be too hard-headed and hard-hearted to learn the lessons He needs us to learn the easy way.

Now...about tolerance...here's what I think:

I don't believe that being unloving is how God wants us to be. As Christians, we need to be obedient to God, and that includes LOVING YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF. We've all had unloving moments, admittedly, but we're just people. No more. God's will is not for us to go out killing people because they don't want to come to Christ. Nor is it to rail at people in a disrespectful manner (such as the "accosting" mentioned above). I am most deeply sorry for any bad experiences so many of you may have had with Christians...I know, it happens too much...I just beg you to remember one thing: We're not perfect...we're just like any other human being; we screw up. Our God doesn't, though...nor does he condone it when we do.

I dunno how much of this has been said before or what...I'm simply too tired to read this whole thread right now...but I just thought I'd throw in my thoughts.

(I did, however, just read Zefalefelah's post on the previous page...man, you nailed it pretty well *smile*)

Avatar wrote:Witness the crusades, the inquisitions, the forced conversions etc. No pagan religion ever killed people because they believed in something different.

I am a christian with a strong belief in the rights of the individual. Because of this I disagree with proselytization. With that said, let it be noted that communist Russia killed millions of theists because they believed in god rather than the state.

I too am a believer, a newly practicing Catholic.

Communism is not a religion. The communists killed Theists because they didn't want any possible opposition to their political agenda. Remember, the church used to be second in power only to the King/Tzar/Sultan etc.
After all, the moment Stalin saw that the church could be used as an ally he U-turned and encouraged it.
It wasn't a matter of belief, but of policy.

By the way, thanks for proselytization. I'll have to use that in sentences at school to make myself look clever.

No problem...Glad I could help!

Your previous statement supports my point Nathan. I believe that Avatar said that Athiests and pagans had never killed people because they believed in something different. I only wanted to point out that communism, an anti-religious or primarily athiestic movement did kill the religious because their beliefs were different. Regardless of the reasons, the religious were killed becuase of their belief in god as superior to the state. I think your distiction between belief and policy in this case is largely immaterial.

But it wasn't because they believed in something different. The communists killed other communists for exactly the same reasons they killed the christians, because they saw them as opponents.
It was Stalin's policy to remove anyone he saw as a threat, not because he thought their beliefs were incorrect but because he thought he would be safer without them there. There's a difference between that and the (old) christian way of killing people as punishment for their beliefs.

I don't see the difference or, if there is one, it is only very minor. Christians during the crusades saw others as their opponents as well.

From the Communist Manifesto:
But Communism abolishes eternal truths, it abolishes religion, and all morality, instead of constituting them on a new basis; it therefore act in contradiction to all past historical experience.

from Lenin:
We must combat religion - this is the ABC of all materialism, and consequently Marxism

Pagans are only tolerant of other religions insofar as their beliefs agree. Ask a pagan, neo-pagan or wiccan what they think of Christianity or Judaism, and stand back to avoid the flow of vitriol.