Kevin's Watch

Orlion wrote:Ok, now I remember at least partially what I was going to respond:
I believe Kevin would have done the Ritual whether he knew it wouldn't destroy Foul or not. That's the point of Dispair, it messes with you so much you end up with some strange notion that the best way to protect what you love is to destroy it. As an example, remember Trell's own Ritual. He was destroying the Stone of Revelstone because he loved it and didn't want it to fall to Satanheart's forces.

Maybe...you are obviously judging Kevin to be even farther gone into despair than I was thinking.

You could be right...hmm...

I was thinking that Kevin was willing to enact the Ritual because he believed it would end Foul. The Land would be wrecked for generations, but when time passed, it would recover.

The reason I was thinking this was...Kevin hid the Wards. Obviously he had the intention that others would come after him and find them, and rebuild the lore he possessed. But if he wasn't thinking Foul would die, why would he do this? The people who came after him would be even more vulnerable to the Despiser than he was.

No, I truly think that Kevin's most logical thought was that both he and Foul would die, then those who came later would be free of the Despiser and able to slowly rebuild their power until they reached Kevin's level of mastery.

If not, why bother hiding the Wards? Since Foul is still around the next group who finds them would be crushed just the same - worse, because it would take them a long time to master the Lore and Foul would be all over them almost immediately.

Horrim Carabal wrote:

Orlion wrote:Ok, now I remember at least partially what I was going to respond:
I believe Kevin would have done the Ritual whether he knew it wouldn't destroy Foul or not. That's the point of Dispair, it messes with you so much you end up with some strange notion that the best way to protect what you love is to destroy it. As an example, remember Trell's own Ritual. He was destroying the Stone of Revelstone because he loved it and didn't want it to fall to Satanheart's forces.

Maybe...you are obviously judging Kevin to be even farther gone into despair than I was thinking.

You could be right...hmm...

I was thinking that Kevin was willing to enact the Ritual because he believed it would end Foul. The Land would be wrecked for generations, but when time passed, it would recover.

The reason I was thinking this was...Kevin hid the Wards. Obviously he had the intention that others would come after him and find them, and rebuild the lore he possessed. But if he wasn't thinking Foul would die, why would he do this? The people who came after him would be even more vulnerable to the Despiser than he was.

No, I truly think that Kevin's most logical thought was that both he and Foul would die, then those who came later would be free of the Despiser and able to slowly rebuild their power until they reached Kevin's level of mastery.

If not, why bother hiding the Wards? Since Foul is still around the next group who finds them would be crushed just the same - worse, because it would take them a long time to master the Lore and Foul would be all over them almost immediately.

How strange, though, that Kevin didn't realize something was up from the fact that Foul helped him enact the RoD, they were even in the same cavern, perhaps hugged goodbye like buddies towards the end. Who knows? But something just doesn't add up here.

Horrim Carabal wrote:

Orlion wrote:Ok, now I remember at least partially what I was going to respond:
I believe Kevin would have done the Ritual whether he knew it wouldn't destroy Foul or not. That's the point of Dispair, it messes with you so much you end up with some strange notion that the best way to protect what you love is to destroy it. As an example, remember Trell's own Ritual. He was destroying the Stone of Revelstone because he loved it and didn't want it to fall to Satanheart's forces.

Maybe...you are obviously judging Kevin to be even farther gone into despair than I was thinking.

You could be right...hmm...

I was thinking that Kevin was willing to enact the Ritual because he believed it would end Foul. The Land would be wrecked for generations, but when time passed, it would recover.

The reason I was thinking this was...Kevin hid the Wards. Obviously he had the intention that others would come after him and find them, and rebuild the lore he possessed. But if he wasn't thinking Foul would die, why would he do this? The people who came after him would be even more vulnerable to the Despiser than he was.

No, I truly think that Kevin's most logical thought was that both he and Foul would die, then those who came later would be free of the Despiser and able to slowly rebuild their power until they reached Kevin's level of mastery.

If not, why bother hiding the Wards? Since Foul is still around the next group who finds them would be crushed just the same - worse, because it would take them a long time to master the Lore and Foul would be all over them almost immediately.

Foul said, somewhere, i forget, that Kevin did in fact think that the Ritual would destroy Foul but at the end he realized that it wouldn't. Foul reveled in Kevin's despair in that moment.
Foul knew he would be only reduced by the Ritual but it was something he's gladly suffer since it would lead to the summoning of WG later.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote: How strange, though, that Kevin didn't realize something was up from the fact that Foul helped him enact the RoD, they were even in the same cavern, perhaps hugged goodbye like buddies towards the end. Who knows? But something just doesn't add up here.

He must have thought Foul hated the Land and the Lords so much he was willing to kill himself just to end them.

Or maybe Kevin thought there was a *chance* Foul would be destroyed, a good chance, and Foul was overestimating his prospects for survival?

High Lord Tolkien wrote: Foul said, somewhere, i forget, that Kevin did in fact think that the Ritual would destroy Foul but at the end he realized that it wouldn't. Foul reveled in Kevin's despair in that moment.
Foul knew he would be only reduced by the Ritual but it was something he's gladly suffer since it would lead to the summoning of WG later.

I don't know if he "gladly" suffered millenia of extended suffering, trapped on the Earth and also bereft of most of his power. But yes, he judged that fate worth his eventual victory.

I wonder if he avoided the Ravers for the centuries of his diminishment? We know Foul is immune to Earthpower (the Elohim, for instance), but while weakened he might not have gotten the fawning adoration he was used to from his main 3 erstwhile lackeys.

High Lord Tolkien wrote:

Horrim Carabal wrote:

Orlion wrote:Ok, now I remember at least partially what I was going to respond:
I believe Kevin would have done the Ritual whether he knew it wouldn't destroy Foul or not. That's the point of Dispair, it messes with you so much you end up with some strange notion that the best way to protect what you love is to destroy it. As an example, remember Trell's own Ritual. He was destroying the Stone of Revelstone because he loved it and didn't want it to fall to Satanheart's forces.

Maybe...you are obviously judging Kevin to be even farther gone into despair than I was thinking.

You could be right...hmm...

I was thinking that Kevin was willing to enact the Ritual because he believed it would end Foul. The Land would be wrecked for generations, but when time passed, it would recover.

The reason I was thinking this was...Kevin hid the Wards. Obviously he had the intention that others would come after him and find them, and rebuild the lore he possessed. But if he wasn't thinking Foul would die, why would he do this? The people who came after him would be even more vulnerable to the Despiser than he was.

No, I truly think that Kevin's most logical thought was that both he and Foul would die, then those who came later would be free of the Despiser and able to slowly rebuild their power until they reached Kevin's level of mastery.

If not, why bother hiding the Wards? Since Foul is still around the next group who finds them would be crushed just the same - worse, because it would take them a long time to master the Lore and Foul would be all over them almost immediately.

Foul said, somewhere, i forget, that Kevin did in fact think that the Ritual would destroy Foul but at the end he realized that it wouldn't. Foul reveled in Kevin's despair in that moment.
Foul knew he would be only reduced by the Ritual but it was something he's gladly suffer since it would lead to the summoning of WG later.

I think Foul's dirisive laughter near the end finally clued in Mr. Brainy Lord.

___ wrote:I doubt that the Lords had Bloodguard as their personal bodyguards in the days of Kevin. After all, the Land was in peace, and there was no sign of corruption. My guess is that the offense of being sent away to safety while Kevin desecrated the Land, coupled with Kevin desecrating the Land (which is what the Haruchai fell in love with, anyway) is what spurred the Bllodguard to fine-tune their service to assigning personal bodyguards, both to protect the Lords, and to ward against another Lord attemping desecration. But this brings up another point; namely, did a Ranyhin choose to Let Lord Foul ride him?

This was my thought early in the thread.
Also, given the fact that while the Bloodguard abjure lore and tools and weapons, they certainly can discern what is effective and powerful.
And to the Bloodguard, the new Lords do not measure up.
Think about it. They did it with Morin and Bannor going with Covenant and Elena only on the Amok journey. They judge.

duchess of malfi wrote:

At the first, it was to his honour that the Despiser could gain Lordship from him — Lordship, and access to his heart. Was not Fangthane witnessed and approved by the orcrest and lomillialor tests of truth? Innocence is glorified by its vulnerability.

The Lords are not people who would condemn someone for past deeds if that person seemed truly repentent -- as witness their treatment of Covenant. As long as Foul committed no new misdeeds, and he passed the tests of truth, I can see Kevin and company accepting him.

The remarks of Kevin's blindness, not knowing his enemy, etc. could all be easliy explained by Foul completely pulling the wool over Kevin's eyes.

I dunno. First, I think you get into a lot of trouble comparing the unknown, guessed-at actions of the Old Lords by what the New Lords do. From the outset, the New Lords blind themselves to power in a way the Old never did, through the Oath of Peace.

But if Foul was a supposed enemy, would they have admitted him, or given him the "ur-" title? Foul was a lord. And I fall into the trap that I warned about myself. Perhaps Prothall invented the title for Covenant, based on what Kevin did.

were the bloodguard even in service when Foul was in the council? kevin had a pretty long life, and foul came into the council during his term.. that we know but the bloodguard also came into service while Kevin was HL, in what order i dont recall. not even sure it mentions it as a timeline comparison anyway.

However, if he did have a bloodguard , i would imagine the haruchai got his ass beat badly by the other bloodguard when they found out he had FAILED to recognize his charge was the most evil creature on the planet.

Blackhawk wrote: if he did have a bloodguard , i would imagine the haruchai got his ass beat badly by the other bloodguard when they found out he had FAILED to recognize his charge was the most evil creature on the planet.

Yes, it would have been a mercy to that Haruchai if Foul killed him after he revealed himself but before the Ritual (and before his brothers could beat him to death).

And since Foul has no mercy, he probably didn't kill him.

Trapper wrote:Personally I think that Lord Foul (I think that aTOMic's idea that he would have been called Lord Jeroth before his betrayal of Kevin has great merit, BTW) would have been assigned a Bloodguard protector.

As to which Bloodguard had that dubious honour?

I'd hazard a guess that it was the Bloodguard who led the least satisfying life. One who ended up dying in despair. Foul would have loved that. Foul laughs at lepers.

(I'm assigning Foul a little precognition here, but...)

I would think that Foul would have most enjoyed it if he had been guarded by one of the Bloodguard who were sent on the mission to contact the Giants in TIW.

One riven by centuries of self-doubt and recrimination, taken over by the power of the Illearth Stone, able only to watch from a small part of his soul as his otherwise fruitless death devastated the morale of the enemy.

All the time screaming within...

I think Foul would have found Korik's fate amusing if Korik had indeed been his protector. Sending him to strike at the very heart of the Vow and all he held dear at the cost of his own life... A veritable smorgasbord of misery for Foul to feast on...

It was Korik, for mine.

I'd also argue that Bannor was perhaps his sometime deputy in that regard, and that that may be a small part of the reason why Bannor left Covenant's side in TPTP.

This wold make some emotional sense. But it isn't logical, given the nature of the Haruchai. They are in each other's minds. If Korik has been plagued by self-doubt for a thousand plus years, someone's going to have picked up on it, sooner or later.

Note how instantly the Haruchai leaped on Cail in White Gold Wielder. They knew what he had done and his supposedly unworthy response and unworthy desire to return. Immediately.

Anyone pick up on a hint that the old Warward warriors might have ben able to thrown down competitively with the Haruchai, in Kevin's day?
There can't have been too many Giants in Revelstone because there never were too many of the Lost to begin with.
Kevin rode out on his Ranyhyn. Some giants, and a Eoward or two.
It's suggestive, the passage from Gilden Fire.
Though the Chronicles state that the Lords clearly understood what was in the First Ward related to the war-related non-magickal lore.

I think it doesn't much matter which came first, Haruchai or Foul. I think Foul came, passed tests of truth, and bad stuff started happening that no one could figure out.

Foul was probably a bit of a superior jerk on council, but then, so was Osondrea. That wouldn't be a rejection out of the gate.

I don't think the Old Lords had personal guardians. The quotation about Bannor and Morin overhearing the power of command says thaty heard it whispered in "their" councils. The galleries for the meetings make it clear there is room for everyone, even giants.

SO they are huddling around, worried about ur-viles or something, and they say, "Well, they can tear down forbiddings, and words of warning. We've tried Lord's fire to keep 'em out." They run down the list, and as perplexed as they are, they don't find something they think would work.

So, as a last resort, someone mentions, in a whisper, the power of command. It's probablyt he most awesome power out there. When Damelon found it, he put it under a door.

Even in open council, it would probably only be spoken of in whispers. Like old Hebrews did not speak the name of God.

Who knows? Maybe it was a-Jeroth speaking the name of the power, in whispers, trying to tempt Kevin. I doubt Bannor or Morin would mention it if it had been spoke by a-Jeroth and they knew he was Foul.

But maybe Foul said, "Look, a jaywalker," every bloodguard turned his head and he whispered, "power of command."

I never thought about whether he had a bloodguard ward till this thread. But since it has been raised as a possibility, I never thought a Ranyhyn had borne him. And I still think that a Ranyhyn would not.

This is post-Kelenbrahbanahl (sp?). Kelenb......... could smell his hate. They Ranyhyn know Foul, for certain. And they ahve never made attempts to communicate directly with Kevin, from what we are told, though he could get them to do things for him.

I amuse myself by thinking the Ranyhyn rejected a-Jeroth. Remember Kevin had a seed of doubt, but no good reason.

Here's the seed. "He passed both lomilliar and orcrest. Yet the Ranyhyn do not bear him. Why?"

Then it's like, he KNOWS the test of truth, how it works. The Ranyhyn are great but a bit of a mystery as to motivation and thoughts. He goes with what he knows, rather than relying on the grandeur of the horses of Ra. And it costs him.

But the Ranyhyn rejected all sorts of people, most of whom were on the good guys side, so that wouldn't have been evidence against a-Jeroth.

Cambo wrote:But the Ranyhyn rejected all sorts of people, most of whom were on the good guys side, so that wouldn't have been evidence against a-Jeroth.

Kevin doesn't have any evidence against a-Jeroth. He has a doubt. A ssed of a doubt. It suggests he has no logical reason to misdoubt Foul, yet he does.

And he pays for that distrust later as he sends his friends in his place and they die, leading to the plan to unleash the ROD.

I think that it is unlightly that Bannor was the assigned bloodgaurd to A-Jeroth, look at the Haruci's treatment of Cail, he failed through no fault of his own and was banished. IMHO the same fate would befall the hapless Bloodgaurd, certainly the high rank of Bannor in the heirarcy of the Bloodgaurd would not have spared him his peoples ire.

SGuilfoyle1966 wrote:They Ranyhyn know Foul, for certain. And they ahve never made attempts to communicate directly with Kevin, from what we are told, though he could get them to do things for him.

I amuse myself by thinking the Ranyhyn rejected a-Jeroth.

I doubt it. The Ranyhyn aren't stupid. If they smelled or sensed Foul, they would have communicated that fact to Kevin.

The fact is, Foul flat-out surpasses the horses. He surpasses and is proof against all Earthpower, as evidenced by the Power of Command's ineffectiveness against him.

By Hell! What he did to twist the Earthpower into the Sunbane is all the evidence I need that Foul utterly masters it.

Kevin had a seed of doubt, but that doubt wasn't based on Earthpower or any Earthpowerful being. That's why Kevin ignored the seed of doubt. If it had been based on EP, then Kevin would have been able to nail it down, since he was a true master of all 7 Wards.