Kevin's Watch

Agreed. I bet we're all bloody wrong and she ends up being something even stranger than any of us have suggested. Nice to see how it's got people thinking though, isn't it ?

I think the idea that the Mahdoubt is Kastenessen's lover is way off base. My understanding is that Kas's lover was the mother of the merewives--they're the product of their love, which is why Esmer is part Elohim. Kas's lover was driven mad by his love, her daughters and grandson inherited this madness, a large part of which seems to be an intense hatred of all things. That really doesn't fit in with the way the Mahdoubt is presented.

One thing more than any other that struck me about the Mahdoubt was not how she was described, but rather what she said.


The Mahdoubt was speaking with Linden after Liand introdeced them:

"A long trudge, that," she remarked to the air. "Long and weary. And the Mahdoubt can no longer recall her first youth, though she has been shamelessly charmed."

First youth?

Shamelessly charmed?

What first youth? Who has charmed her?

We have been given a plethora of clues, but still the Mahdoubt remains a mystery. And quotes like the one above only draw me in farther, awaiting the next books!

I'm not convinced of the theory that she's Kastenessen's lover, but it does seem like a nice idea. And honestly, I haven't heard a single good argument against.

She isn't beautiful enough. Like we know what an Elohim would find attractive!

She doesn't seem insane. She presumably has had thousands of years to get over it. (A lot of folks don't seem to think characters grow at all, whereas one of the strengths of Donaldson's works is that they do)

She doesn't radiate Earthpower. She was tutored by an Elohim. I'm sure she could hide it pretty easily.

Mind you, I suspect she'll turn out to be something else.

The true identity of the Mahdoubt has to relate to the history of the Land, since she is remembered by Mahrtiir. This precludes here being Kastenessen's lover, since this is something that the Ramen know nothing about.

The history of the Land that the Ramen would be most aware of is ALL pre-Covenant. The old Lords, the arrival of the Giants, the death of the Viles and the self-hatred of the Demondim. Possibly the Seven Wards.

How about Berek's Queen? They were obviously coupled in some way during his High Lordship and so I'm guessing was not far from him as far as power goes.

My first thought was that The Madoubt has been sent to Revelstone by someone (the Dead maybe, or the Earth itself) to undermine the Masters and preserve and lore relating to Earthpower so that it can be used if needed.

Sum sui generis
Vs

She's a tough nut to crack, that's for sure.
If Anele is the personification of the Land, Maybe she is the personification of something else. It was posted earlier that she may represent Time; or maybe she represents Earthpower; or Law...we all know how much The Laws have been damaged.

...Maybe SRD doesn't know what she is, and he's waiting for the best post on this forum to decide what to do with her .

We have been assuming Esmer is the only offspring of the Merewives and Cail. I admit this is a bit of a long shot, but not so long as Berek's Queen, Aitirian, etc.

I am thinking if this is the case the Esmer and Mahdoubt are parallels of the Ur-Viles and Waynhim philosophy.

Esmer is divided AGAINST himself, he is a knot of conflicting passions which have to be externalized to be borne.

The Mahdoubt is more accepting of her heritage and has internalized it, it SHOWS in her appearence, patchwork, unrully, divided, etc. She seeks to serve (like the Waynhim) in order to bear her nature, and she seeks to serve the Haurachai, her father's people. Maybe she rejects the merewives philosphy or leans against it.

Obviously she has some power, is able to veil herself. She is able to hide her nature as Esmer is if he wants to (I privately suspect it would be harder for him as a lot of his energies are spent in self-hatred - despite).

Oooh. I like this theory TOO. This is so much fun.

Now that's a theory I like a lot.

Now I'm going to have to rethink my second theory about her being a tennis player trying to escape from the rigours of the professional circuit.

Plissken wrote:As I'm reading this, one thought keeps returning to me: The "sculptor" of Mahdoubt could be Foul, Joan, or Roger. Drool's mutated bird keeps springing to mind every time I read her description.

If that's the case, her presence could well be the "something broken" returned to Covenant to cause him more anguish - with the Law of Death broken, she could even be the "Fatal Revenant" of Lena, Elena, or even - and because of her love of Revelstone, and of Service, I'm leaning this way - Atiaran.

Of course, Lena spoke in a similiar way in her madness, had trouble keeping her memory straight, has reason to be cautious of love, and was "shamelessly charmed" by Covenant - from her point of view...

Regardless, any of the three returning to torture Covenant with their presence gives a nice bit of completion to the series - especially if Covenant or Linden decides to restore her to her "pre-sculpted" condition.

Hell, it's as good a theory as any.

You are forgetting something, In White Gold Weilder, Lindon meets all of Covenant's dead in Andelain, so she knows what Elena, Lena, Mhoram, Foamfollower, and Bannor all look like. So, I don't think she's Elena. I

ah, but that was before the law of lifwe was broken, only the law of death at that point...so someone could now return from the dead, as hoolian did, not just show up as a spector.

One other thing not mentioned here: The Haruchai themselves are strangely uncurious about her. They shrug her off with "She serves Revelstone". Now we don't know how long she has been serving Revelstone, but if she's been there for generations, never aging, you would think they'd be concerned indeed, now that they're on an anti-Earthpower jihad.

Aleksandr wrote:One other thing not mentioned here: The Haruchai themselves are strangely uncurious about her. They shrug her off with "She serves Revelstone". Now we don't know how long she has been serving Revelstone, but if she's been there for generations, never aging, you would think they'd be concerned indeed, now that they're on an anti-Earthpower jihad.

Almost like they treated Amok in The Illearth War!

We have been hearing a lot from Anele like "IF this stone could speak". Maybe the Mahdoubt is a representation of the Earth trying to communicate after a fashion. It is quite fragmented (with time fissures, at least two broken laws, etc.).

Your comment almost directly parallels my own, which calls for her to be a product of suru-pa-maerl.

That one line in Runes, and I'm too lazy at the moment to look it up, the Mahdoubt being sculpted by a child in a tantrum, brought me straight to that.

Maybe I'm wrong.

I will agree with an above poster that another comment I made, that she's perhaps not attractive enough for an Elohim, is off. I guess I made that comment because the Elohim, in my mind at least, are embodiments of beauty (even if they're stuck up jerks). I make that connection because the word Elohim is another Hebrew name for God, and God (whether you believe in him/her or not) certainly personifies beauty of some kind. Contrarily, God (again, whether you believe in him/her or not, and I suppose, which "version" you believe in - the Old or New Testament [I'm really opening myself up for assault here]) would look past any exterior flaws and see the true beauty of an individual, that which is on the inside.

Following with that, we come back to this line of thought: "if these stones could speak". The Land, even while under the Sunbane, was beautiful. We know this because Linden sensed the blight upon it (not to be confused with Jordan's Blight - blech). One can't sense a blight on something if there's nothing upon which for that blight to reside. If we didn't already know of the beauty of the Land, this argument might be specious. However, we know that Land is beautiful. We fell in love with it in the First chronicles, suffered its pain in the Second, and are missing it desperately in the Last.

All of this verbiage, and I still haven't shed much light on exactly who the Mahdoubt is. There's only one person that knows, and it'll be a while before we find out conclusively.

But the two most plausible theories (in my mind at least) are:

Berek's Queen; or
A representation of the Land.

Even though I make much of the suru-pa-maerl connection, and believe there really is something to that, there's a missing link somewhere that none of us have hit upon that takes her from who she is, to a physical representation or manifestation of something. If she was sculpted, then who sculpted her and why? Donaldson usually gives us the answer to our questions, so it must be somewhere. If that is, indeed, the answer.

If she was sculpted, then who sculpted her and why? Donaldson usually gives us the answer to our questions, so it must be somewhere. If that is, indeed, the answer.

Something makes me want to look up again what Anele says when he reads the Close - unfortunately I can't (I broke my wrist and am staying home for a couple weeks, but left Runes at uni). I understand that Anele's reading was about parents and sons, but perhaps there is something in there...

"A long trudge, that," she remarked to the air. "Long and weary. And the Mahdoubt can no longer recall her first youth, though she has been shamelessly charmed."

Another thought occurred while rereading this entire thread.
And I am slowly being turned toward the Mahdoubt as Kastenessen's lover.

burgs66 mentioned that her being "sculpted" as if by a child throwing a tantrum (which was described by SRD upon our first meeting the Mahdoubt).

SRD tells us later in the quote above that the Mahdoubt cannot remember her FIRST childhood. (The time when she was with Kastenessen?) Perhaps she is, or the Elohim are the sculptor.

She was "shamelessly charmed" (didn't the [Elohim try to take care of Kastenessen's lover, make her forget so that she would not be completely lost to life?)

SRD tells us that one eye was orange (fire?) and the other was the "deep blue of violets" (water?)
Her eyes, a window to the soul, may be telling us of Kastennessen (the orange eye, symbolic of Kastenessen, and his capping of the fire in the North; and her blue eye may be a hint at the merewives which are her offspring.)

Sherriff Lytton posted on page 5 of this thread about Mahrtiir's reaction to the Mahdoubt.......while I was reading those same passages, I got the feeling that some hidden power was at work in the Mahdoubt. Perhaps it is not evident to Linden's health-sense when directly confronted (like the "word of warning" that the Waynhim had constructed in Anele's past.

The theory of the Mahdoubt being Kastenessen's lover is becoming more plausible to me.

Hey - great interpretation! That's the best argument for her being Kassy's lover I've heard yet.

Aaaaah, good to be back on the Watch after all this time.

I think you are all wrong about her. The Mahdoubt is an Amnioni... or rather a human turned into an Amnioni like Marc Vestabule

A sculpted hybrid Amnioni/professional tennis player trying to escape from the pressures of the international circuit by sojourning in forbidden space, where phosphenes and formication hold no sway.