Kevin's Watch

Good point WayFriend.

--A

How do you hurt someone (cause despair) who has lost everything? Give them back something they loved broken....

I believe in this case the opposite will be true. Jeremiah, who was broken in our world, will be returned to Linden whole.

Yeah, wow, this is such a deep topic for the little red car. So there was obviously some awareness going on in Jeremiah's head, or else he wouldn't be building all that stuff...
I especially liked the stuff about Law and Chaos and the cars as chaos...
But if Lord Foul has access to a white ring, he can probably use the seizures for some time travel... right? Possibly? I don't know how much control he has.

JemCheeta wrote:So there was obviously some awareness going on in Jeremiah's head, or else he wouldn't be building all that stuff...

Also, I think of this: How could Linden have learned to love Jeremiah so well unless there was a Jeremiah to love? His mind is hard to reach, but not gone. Linden could not love so deeply unless there was something there to respond to.

So I think Jeremiah has retreated into himself, and only shows himself in safe ways. I am sure that he has been assaulted by a Raver, perhaps repeatedly, and has fled into himself in order to protect himself. I think the Raver has recently shown Jeremiah glimpses of the Land in an effort to draw him out, and it has not worked, but Jeremiah retains the knowledge, and tries to express the wonder of what he has seen to Linden.

JemCheeta wrote:But if Lord Foul has access to a white ring, he can probably use the seizures for some time travel... right?

Why would he need the white ring? For surely if Esmer is unhindered by the linear restrictions of time (and, by the way, I love Attanasio's term "timeloose" in this regard.) ... if Esmer is timeloose, would not Kastenessen be? Would not Foul be capable of it? Does he not demonstrate an uncanny knowledge of future events from time to time?

I don't think foul would be capable of it. And I think as far as Esmer goes, that'll end up being made clearer.

Avatar wrote:I'm probably wrong, but sometimes a description is just a description. It doesn't have to be some immense, hidden foreshadowing.
--Avatar

i think avatar may be right -- if any of you play D&D, then you would know that sometimes the DM will give details that have no hidden meaning, (i.e. "you feel a cold breeze on the back of your neck") just to screw with the players and see what they do.

assuming that it does have a hidden meaning, then here's one that you've not thought of: what if J is the creator himself? most of the time creator figures don't like to reveal too much about themselves . . . ok, now you can burn me for that

Considering the stunning brilliance of the first part of your post, I don't think you need to worry about that too much.



--Avatar

no, seriously, i think the old man is probalbly the creator, and she didn't see him this time. who else do we know that seems to be rather cryptic? hmmm, lets think real hard about that one...

building on the idea that the red car represents a ceasture, then perhaps that's how he got so old before . . . i bet the sides of the mobious strip represent our world and the land, which would mean that at one point they run together, causing who knows what . . .

Wayfriend wrote: Why would he need the white ring? For surely if Esmer is unhindered by the linear restrictions of time (and, by the way, I love Attanasio's term "timeloose" in this regard.) ... if Esmer is timeloose, would not Kastenessen be? Would not Foul be capable of it? Does he not demonstrate an uncanny knowledge of future events from time to time?

I don't think so.
Foul isn't a being of Earthpower.
Esmer has that connection to Earthpower like the Elohim and to some extent the Ranyhym.
I think it's the Earthpower that allows going back in time (or being a part of "alltime"[my quotes]).
Which makes sense because those who are beings of Earthpower know the hazards of it's abuse. And before the breaking of the Laws of Life and Death there might not have been any possible Arch hazards.
Which makes Esmer's dual nature so interesting such a wildcard.

And didn't SRD mention that Foul himself should be or will be especially cautious of manipulating or changing things in the past?
That it would be in his best interests to see that they stay the way they are.
Or something like that, i forget.

While the second bit makes sense, about Foul being cautious about changing the past, I'm curious as to why you're so sure that Foul isn't a being of EarthPower.

Is there anything that explicitly says so? Without thinking about it, I'd call him pretty EarthPowerful. We know that the value of EarthPower rests in the person wielding it. In itself, it is as amoral as anything else.

--A

I'm curious as to why you're so sure that Foul isn't a being of EarthPower.

It seems to me that he isn't. Foul was unable to use the SoL in LFB because to do so would have harmed him. He used the Earthpower after TPTP to revive himself, and corrupted it as he grew stronger.

Avatar wrote:While the second bit makes sense, about Foul being cautious about changing the past, I'm curious as to why you're so sure that Foul isn't a being of EarthPower.

Is there anything that explicitly says so? Without thinking about it, I'd call him pretty EarthPowerful. We know that the value of EarthPower rests in the person wielding it. In itself, it is as amoral as anything else.

--A

While Foul may have the ability to control the Earthpower, it's fundamentally alien to his nature, because he is not a creature of the Earth. He existed outside the Arch of Time and before it was created. In his own way, he is even more alien than Covenant and Linden, who at least came from an Earth.

That's my theory, at any rate.

Variol Farseer wrote:While Foul may have the ability to control the Earthpower, it's fundamentally alien to his nature, because he is not a creature of the Earth. ... That's my theory, at any rate.

And it's an excellent one.

Makes sense to me, too. His power would probably share the nature of Creator power, to a lesser degree... or maybe all his own?

Variol Farseer wrote:While Foul may have the ability to control the Earthpower, it's fundamentally alien to his nature, because he is not a creature of the Earth. He existed outside the Arch of Time and before it was created. In his own way, he is even more alien than Covenant and Linden, who at least came from an Earth.

That's my theory, at any rate.

I agree. Earthpower was created, along with the Land, by the Creator. Foul was not. Therefore he is categorically not a being of Earthpower. We know he can use Earthpower, since he was able to be a Lord on Kevin's council; however, I'm inclined to believe he's able to use Earthpower for the same reason he was able to pass a test of truth (according to Baradakas): He surpasses it. Foul is way above Earthpower, on a par with the being who created Earthpower.

Like the other's mentioned Foul, imho is not an earthpowerful being.
It is alien to him.
The only time he can make use of it is after the PTP when the Law of Death and the Sol were broken and destroyed.
How it healed him is beyond my imagination though.

Earthpower is in all things.
But there is really nothing on the Earth (Land-earth) like Foul.
I think he passed the test of truth not through manipulating Earthpower but by surpassing it.
Or just being able to exist without it.
I'm not explaining my thoughts well, sorry.

Does anyone remember SRD saying that it was in Fouls best interest not to interfer inthe past, or something to that effect?
If I didn't imagine it I think it's very significant.

Variol Farseer wrote:While Foul may have the ability to control the Earthpower, it's fundamentally alien to his nature, because he is not a creature of the Earth. He existed outside the Arch of Time and before it was created.

Sounds convincing to me, and well "justified" as well.

--A

High Lord Tolkien wrote:...But there is really nothing on the Earth (Land-earth) like Foul.
I think he passed the test of truth not through manipulating Earthpower but by surpassing it.
Or just being able to exist without it...

Except for Covenant.

High Lord Tolkien wrote:I think he passed the test of truth not through manipulating Earthpower but by surpassing it.

Exactly. As I recall, the test of truth is only accurate when the testee doesn't surpass the tester. Foul surpassed not only the tester but the whole system.

ur-bane wrote:

High Lord Tolkien wrote:...But there is really nothing on the Earth (Land-earth) like Foul.
I think he passed the test of truth not through manipulating Earthpower but by surpassing it.
Or just being able to exist without it...

Except for Covenant.

They're not really that similar in nature, IMO...

I guess it depends entirely on POV. That particular response was my way of saying that Covenant was right with what he told Foul, in a way. Foul is the part of Covenant that hates.

I still take a strong side of "externalization." i.e. everything in the Arch derives its nature and existence from Covenant and his internal struggles.
That is the side that responded with "except for Covenant."