The Creator's Non-Appearance

[Jerico]

Well Jerimiah could not just create Revelstone and Mt. thunder by accident so there has to be some connection between him and the Land, or him and the Creator?
Maybe because of the breaking of the Laws of Death and Life the Creator was able to 'piggy-back' into the Land with Jerimiah?
Or Jerimiah has been in the Land all this time keeping Covenant company?
Or maybe half in and half out of the Land?

[Xar]

I still maintain that the Creator can't enter the Land... it's the Law of Time that restrains him, and the Law of Time still stands, despite the Falls.
But re-reading Runes, I noticed a comment made by Roger to Linden, about Jeremiah, after Roger has kidnapped him:

He's just meat. Don't you know that? An empty carcass. There's nothing you could do to save him. There hasn't been anyone in there for ten years.

Nothing too remarkable, except that, unless Megan Roman told Roger about who Jeremiah was, what part he had in the bonfire ten years earlier, and what had happened to him (something I doubt she did, given that this is not really the kind of things you tell a stranger), how could he know that Jeremiah was in such a state for ten years?

Could it be that Jeremiah was somewhere else during those years? Maybe lost in the void between the worlds? perhaps suspended between the Land and the real world?

It would be interesting to know whether his two sisters had also become catatonic or otherwise psychically damaged...

Also, did anyone notice that Jeremiah's maimed hand is complementary to Covenant's? Jeremiah has only the last two fingers left, and Covenant missed those two... SRD says he creates only what he needs for the story, so it is likely that this could have a significance of sorts.

[Buckarama]

Yeah good point. Jerry has been in the land for all that time I bet. Doing something,....

[wayfriend]

... the "wearing horse pajamas for ten thousand years" theory has been brought up by others.

[Fist and Faith]

Oy, five pages to read through? I can't bear it! But I'm reading Runes again, and wanted to comment. I read the first post, and Av is right. Ochreman appears to Jeremiah. That's why Jeremiah knows how to build Revelstone and Mt. Thunder, and that's why Linden didn't know about the appearance.

[A Gunslinger]

Oy, five pages to read through? I can't bear it! But I'm reading Runes again, and wanted to comment. I read the first post, and Av is right. Ochreman appears to Jeremiah. That's why Jeremiah knows how to build Revelstone and Mt. Thunder, and that's why Linden didn't know about the appearance.

Could be. But you would think that given the utterly controlled nature of Jeremiah's environment, that Linden would have seen or heard of the Ochre-Robed man's appeareance.

I think it more likely that the creator is either indifferent at this point, or is himself trapped in the Arch by mechinations were as yet unaware.

[Fist and Faith]

My thought is that the man appeared to Jeremiah simply by appearing. Maybe he was suddenly standing there in Jeremiah's bedroom at night. Possibly the nights Jeremiah built with the car tracks. He couldn't simply appear to Covenant and Linden, because, being adults who can talk, they'd instantly have questions that would take their attention away from the messages he wanted to give them. But he could have taken his time with Jeremiah, talking for hours as Linden slept. More likely, he didn't speak at all, but communicated in the way Jeremiah understood - with the building materials.

The question is: What does the Creator need with Jeremiah's building skills? A new Arch of Time is my bet.

[wayfriend]

Well, I've had a bunch of theories on this now. ( Here is my latest.)

But I think it's worth declaring on its own right that having the Creator act "off camera" is not what Donaldson would do IMO. The Chronicles to date has not been written in that style; rather, where necessary, the narrative POV has changed to bring important things to our reading eyes. And why would he keep the Creator's appearance from us?

I find it easier to believe that the Creator does not appear at all, than that he does appear but we the reader are not privy to it.

[A Gunslinger]

My thought is that the man appeared to Jeremiah simply by appearing. Maybe he was suddenly standing there in Jeremiah's bedroom at night. Possibly the nights Jeremiah built with the car tracks. He couldn't simply appear to Covenant and Linden, because, being adults who can talk, they'd instantly have questions that would take their attention away from the messages he wanted to give them. But he could have taken his time with Jeremiah, talking for hours as Linden slept. More likely, he didn't speak at all, but communicated in the way Jeremiah understood - with the building materials.

The question is: What does the Creator need with Jeremiah's building skills? A new Arch of Time is my bet.

I think that Jeremiah was warning Linden from the land that something was afoul (ahem!), and that the construction, given his limited abilities in this plane, was his only means by which to accomplish such.

I think jeremiah is MUCH more in the land... that part of him was there already?

[Fist and Faith]

Well, I've had a bunch of theories on this now. ( Here is my latest.)

Wow. Um, it's almost midnight, so I'll have to get back to your latest theory!

But I think it's worth declaring on its own right that having the Creator act "off camera" is not what Donaldson would do IMO. The Chronicles to date has not been written in that style; rather, where necessary, the narrative POV has changed to bring important things to our reading eyes. And why would he keep the Creator's appearance from us?

I find it easier to believe that the Creator does not appear at all, than that he does appear but we the reader are not privy to it.

Well, you are as likely right as I am. But I'll keep going with my idea by suggesting that the way in which SRD is being consistent is not in showing us what's going on, but by having the Creator appear to a character who is about to make his/her first trip to the Land. The facts that Linden is still the POV character and Jeremiah can't tell her means we don't get to see it happen. But,

Spoiler

since it appears that Jeremiah will be talking in FR, I think we'll hear about an ocre-robed gent soon enough.

I think jeremiah is MUCH more in the land... that part of him was there already?

Very interesting idea! You think part of him was trapped in the Land at the beginning of TWL? Could be! maybe that's what caused his autism-like symptoms that the doctors haven't been able to explain. Of course, we'll need a millennia-old character. Which we have. Maybe Hollian became pregnant when that part of Jeremiah got trapped in the Land?

[Xar]

Well, Roger's words about Jeremiah (if you scroll up you'll find a post of mine with that theory as well) seem to confirm that part of Jeremiah (his soul?) has been in the Land since TWL. If that's true, then we are only left with more questions:

1) Why? Jeremiah suffered through the same ordeal as his brothers and sisters, his mother, and many others: why did he alone suffer this "dissociation"?

2) How? Provided that Jeremiah were in the Land, his millennia-long existence could be explained by the fact that he is still bound somehow to his physical body, for which only 10 years passed; but in that case we should wonder whether he was AWARE for all 3.500 years, or if he was "dispersed" and needed all that time to coalesce back into an awareness.

There might be others as well: where was he in the Land, for example, and so on. The gist of it is that if Jeremiah was truly in the Land somehow for all those 10 years - as Roger suggests - then we are only left with more questions.

[Fist and Faith]

Ah, I see your post now, Xar. Like I said, I didn't read any but the first post here. Although I'm not so sure Megan isn't a chatterbox, I agree that Roger likely didn't learn about this from her. And I really hope SRD didn't make Joan the way she is because of traumatic events, and make Jeremiah the way he is because of traumatic events. It would be more interesting if Jeremiah's "problem" was what you guys are talking about. Yup, I'm going with Jeremiah=Anele!

[A Gunslinger]

There are characters in the Lands historey capable of long life (Forestals, etc.) so there is precendence. I have no idea what vehicle may have preserved a portion of Jeremiah...perhaps he became trapped in theArch during the orignial ceremony where his hand became burned? I can't wait to find out!!

[Relayer]

2) How? Provided that Jeremiah were in the Land, his millennia-long existence could be explained by the fact that he is still bound somehow to his physical body, for which only 10 years passed; but in that case we should wonder whether he was AWARE for all 3.500 years, or if he was "dispersed" and needed all that time to coalesce back into an awareness.

There might be others as well: where was he in the Land, for example, and so on. The gist of it is that if Jeremiah was truly in the Land somehow for all those 10 years - as Roger suggests - then we are only left with more questions.

We are definitely left with more questions! I like your 'dispersed' idea... but maybe it isn't that he needed time to be able to 'coalesce,' he needed his body to show up in the Land. In which case maybe he's been a disincarnate spirit or something all that time.

I also think that the Creator is still active and that SRD has a specific reason for us to not have seen him, whoever he might have appeared to. "Us" in this case, really meaning "Linden" -- the Creator either has a reason why he doesn't want Linden to know he's appeared to Jeremiah (IF that's the case. It certainly would have been easy for him to appear in Jere's room at night, as Fist said)... or there's something that Linden has to experience or do because of her belief that she or the Land was abandoned by the Creator. Remember how pissed she is about this; what actions will that cause her to take? Or, how does this affect her attitude that SHE is the one who has to save the Land...

As to Jeremiah somehow being Anele, or being harbored within Anele, that's a really interesting thought!!

[Ur Dead]

One thing bothers me about the tranlation..
Who summoned Joan? (Most probably Foul)
Roger? (Most likely Foul)
Jeremiah..
Linden?

I am wondering who brought the last two. Normally Foul would have made an appearance at the beginning. In direct conversations with the one he summoned.
Linden's translation was different than the WL one. She seems to view events as a third person. When she heard Foul say "I have her son" Was it Foul talking directly to her or was he talking to the Raver to torment Joan. It's only later does Foul talk to Linden thru Anele. This leads me to believe that Foul didn't summon Linden. He didn't know at the time she was brought thru to the Land.

If Jeremiah was summoned by Foul, would he have let him go in company of TC?
Linden sole purpose in Runes was to get the Staff and then try to free her son. But at the end.. well.. there he is. This leads me to believe that someone else did the summoning. If the Creator did it, would he have to reach thru the Arch to accomplish a summoning? Or did he piggyback Foul's summoning(Joan and Roger) and attach Linden and Jeremiah to it. Maybe causing them to be placed where they might gain an advantage against Foul.

Makes it interesting because if he did have a hand in summoning, then Linden and Jeremiah are doomed to the Land forever. But in their world both may have substained mortal wounds. In essenses the Creator may have done them a favor.

[dlbpharmd]

Joan summoned Roger, Linden and Jeremiah.

[wayfriend]

I mentioned this before, but it didn't get as much attention as I thought it deserved.

If you reread the passages that play out on the rock where everyone is summoned, you notice that Donaldson repeatedly mentions sparkling in the area around the rock.

The allusion to ceasures cannot be denied.

So my theory is: ceasures were involved in the summonsing this time. And so, in a way, Joan summoned herself.

Consider that ceasures are commensurate with cracks in the Arch of Time. But another thing that the Arch of Time does is seal in the Land's universe. If there are cracks, there may be things coming in and out. This would not be good - such things happening would endanger the Earth - but that's what's happening, isn't it?

Also, as mentioned all along in the Runes dissection, there are hints that the Land reality and the Haven Farm reality are bumping into each other.

So I think a ceasure created by Joan was used to rip open the fabric of reality and yank people through. Maybe Joan herself didn't do it, but she created the means.

[Ur Dead]

Ceasures exist throughout the entire timeline of the land. Or at least their effect spans the entire timeline of the existance of the land. In that case the summoning can be perment.

Another off the topic question.
The Word "ceasures" is the letter "C" sounded soft like an "s" or hard like the letter "k"?

[dlbpharmd]

I pronounce ceasures like "seizures."

[Fist and Faith]

As does SRD.