A few scenes which I thought were good:
LFB: Atarian foregoing retribution for the sake of the Land
TIW: Covenant describing why the rock gardens remind him of a leper he knew
TPTP: Bannor's farewell to Covenant & Foamfollower at the Colossus
TWL: The first few chapters dealing with Covenant's horror of how the Land has changed
TOT: Cable Seadreamer's sacrifice at the One Tree to stop Covenant removing a branch
WGW: Foul's realisation that he STILL can't break free of the Arch of Time because of Covenant's death
The passage that sticks...
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Cmdr_Floyd
- Stonedownor
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Ther are so many that stick in my mind.
Aliantha
Sunder and TC when TC wishes Sunder and Hollian to remain behind.
Coerci
Revelstone - especially in 2nd Chronicles when Giants see it first and TC reciting the stanza leading him to be named Earthfriend
But most of all these lines
"Ah, my Lord. Then why do you delay? Why do you fear?"
"Because I am mortal, weak. The way is only clear - not sure. In my time, I have been both a seer and oracle. Now I - I desire a sign. I require to see."
Aliantha
Sunder and TC when TC wishes Sunder and Hollian to remain behind.
Coerci
Revelstone - especially in 2nd Chronicles when Giants see it first and TC reciting the stanza leading him to be named Earthfriend
But most of all these lines
"Ah, my Lord. Then why do you delay? Why do you fear?"
"Because I am mortal, weak. The way is only clear - not sure. In my time, I have been both a seer and oracle. Now I - I desire a sign. I require to see."
Another one i like:
''An argent shout coiled in his throat.''
''An argent shout coiled in his throat.''
But if you're all about the destination, then take a fucking flight.
We're going nowhere slowly, but we're seeing all the sights.
And we're definitely going to hell, but we'll have all the best stories to tell.
Full of the heavens and time.
We're going nowhere slowly, but we're seeing all the sights.
And we're definitely going to hell, but we'll have all the best stories to tell.
Full of the heavens and time.
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Fist and Faith
- Magister Vitae
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Yes, welcome. And nice to see someone with such great taste!Avatar wrote:Welcome to the Watch Akhc.
Nothing wrong with quoting it again, eh?Avatar wrote:One of my all-time favourite parts. Brings a tear to my eye I tell you. Every time.akhc wrote:Revelstone - especially in 2nd Chronicles when Giants see it first and TC reciting the stanza leading him to be named Earthfriend
He intended to tear that place down if necessary to root out the Clave - and the bare thought that he might be forced to damage Revelstone made him savage.
Yet when he looked at his companions, saw the rapt faces of the Giants, his anger loosened slightly. The Keep had the power to entrance them. Pitchwife's mien was wide with the glee of appreciation; the First's eyes shone pride at the handiwork of her long-dead people; Mistweave gazed upward hungrily, all dismay forgotten for a time. Even Honninscrave had momentarily lost his air of doom, as though he knew intuitively that Revelstone would give him a chance to make restitution.
Conflicting passions rose in Covenant's throat. Thickly, he asked, "Can you read it? Do you know what it means? I've been here three times" - four counting the brief translation during which he had refused Mhoram's summons - "but no one's ever been able to tell me what it means."
For a moment, none of the Giants answered. They could not step back from the wonder of the Keep. They had seen Coercri in Seareach and marveled at it; but for them Revelstone was transcendent. Watching them, Covenant knew with a sudden pang that now they would never turn back - that no conceivable suasion would induce them to set their Search and their private purposes aside, to leave the Sunbane and Lord Foul to him. The Sunbane had eroded them in fundamental ways, gnawing at their ability to believe that their Search might actually succeed. What could Giants do to aid a Land in which nature itself had become the source of horror? But the sight of Revelstone restored them to themselves. They would never give up their determination to fight.
Unless Covenant found his own answer soon, he would not be able to save them.
Swallowing heavily, Pitchwife murmered, "No words. There are none. Your scant human tongue is void-" Tears spread through the creases of his face, mapping his emotion.
But the First said for him, "All tongues, Giantfriend. All tongues lack such language. There is that in the granite glory of the world's heart which may not be uttered with words. All other expression must be dumb when the pure stone speaks. And here that speech has been made manifest. Ah, my heart!" Her voice rose as if she wanted to both sing and keen. But for her also no words were adequate. Softly, she concluded, "The Giants of the Land were taught much by their loss of Home. I am humbled before them."
For a moment, Covenant could not respond. But then a memory came back to him - a recollection of the formal salutation that the people of Revelstone had formerly given to the Giants. Hail and welcome, inheritor of Land's loyalty. Welcome whole or hurt, in boon or bane - ask or give. To any requiring name we will not fail. In a husky voice, he breathed:
"Giant-troth Revelstone, ancient ward-
Heart and door of Earthfriend's main:
Preserve the true with Power's sword,
Thou ages-Keeper, mountain-reign."
At that, the First turned toward him; and for an instant her face was concentrated with weeping as if he had touched her deep Giantish love of stone. Almost immediately she recovered her sternness - but not before he had seen how absolutely she was ready now to serve him. Gruffly, she said, "Thomas Covenant, I have titled you Giantfriend, but it is not enough. You are the Earthfriend. No other name suffices."
Then she went and put her arms around her husband.
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon
In reference to the 'leprosarium' quotes from MatrixMan, I agree that the second leprosarium tale -- the woman with her smile -- is powerful. I appreciated the way that it foreshadows...
I believe at this moment, Mhoram realized that the Lords' faith in Elena would come to ruin, as she shares the same flaws as the woman of the leprosarium.[/quote]Troy took a deep breath, trying to shake off the effect of Covenant's tale, but he could think of nothing to say. When he looked over at Elena, he saw that she was melding with Mhoram and Amatin as if she needed their support to hear what she had heard. After a moment, Mhoram said aloud, "Ur-Lord Covenant is a prophet."
"Does he fortell the fate of the Land?" Amatin asked painfully.
"No!" Elena's denial was fierce, and Mhoram breathed also, "No." But Troy could hear that Mhoram meant something different.
That whole passage is brilliant, but the above quote is almost beyond that, to me. I always loved that Troy could hear that Mhoram meant something different by his response with the same word. And now, thanks to Koriku's expert analysis, I think that he is exactally right, that for the first time Mhoram got the first inkling that Elena might share the same character flaw as the women in TC's story. Brilliant writing and analysis."No!" Elena's denial was fierce, and Mhoram breathed also, "No." But Troy could hear that Mhoram meant something different.
Cowboy: Why you doin' this, Doc?
Doc Holliday: Because Wyatt Earp is my friend.
Cowboy: Friend? Hell, I got lots of friends.
Doc Holliday: ... I don't.
Doc Holliday: Because Wyatt Earp is my friend.
Cowboy: Friend? Hell, I got lots of friends.
Doc Holliday: ... I don't.
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wayfriend
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I'm not with you guys here. I don't understand what trait Elena shared with the folkdancing leper in TC's story.
For one thing, that woman is patently a foil for Covenant. Covenant is telling this story as a way of explaining his position on being a "bloody savior", by providing a poignant counter-example. He's saying, you want me to use my ring and save the Land, but to me that's like being this woman, and that's what would happen to me. (Which is why it follows a story about culture-shock.)
(Although its possible that the story has other purposes.)
Another interpretation on this quote is simply: Elena is saying "no", that is not the fate of the Land. While Mhorman is saying, no, Covenant is not talking about the Land, he's talking about himself.
But you can sell me on your idea if you can explain the connection between Elena and the folkdancing leper.
Then you would need to explain why the author would have Mhoram gain such insight into Elena's flaws, but then have nothing come of it. For, IIRC, Mhoram never expresses any doubts about Elena subsequently. So it's rather a dead-end story-wise.
For one thing, that woman is patently a foil for Covenant. Covenant is telling this story as a way of explaining his position on being a "bloody savior", by providing a poignant counter-example. He's saying, you want me to use my ring and save the Land, but to me that's like being this woman, and that's what would happen to me. (Which is why it follows a story about culture-shock.)
(Although its possible that the story has other purposes.)
Another interpretation on this quote is simply: Elena is saying "no", that is not the fate of the Land. While Mhorman is saying, no, Covenant is not talking about the Land, he's talking about himself.
But you can sell me on your idea if you can explain the connection between Elena and the folkdancing leper.
Then you would need to explain why the author would have Mhoram gain such insight into Elena's flaws, but then have nothing come of it. For, IIRC, Mhoram never expresses any doubts about Elena subsequently. So it's rather a dead-end story-wise.
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The connection is that both women, though both lovely in their own way and loved life strongly, they both also were blind to their own flaws. The woman in the leprosarium blind to the needs of keeping herself from further damage, and Elena blind to the needs of the Land by not seeing that her long sought desire to bring back Kevin from the dead would break the Law of Death.
Blind might be the wrong word; perhaps more so they were both ignorant that their deeds would bring doom to themselves.
Edit:
It is a poignant story and also end where TC would love to get his hands on her husband, however I think there is a connection that Mhoram perhaps for the first time feels something amiss.
Perhaps it was a feeling that Mhoram couldn't put into words at that moment, but it wasn't a dead end to me. That line whre Troy felt something different in Mhoram's "no" stayed in the back of my mind the rest of the book.
Blind might be the wrong word; perhaps more so they were both ignorant that their deeds would bring doom to themselves.
Edit:
It is a poignant story and also end where TC would love to get his hands on her husband, however I think there is a connection that Mhoram perhaps for the first time feels something amiss.
Perhaps it was a feeling that Mhoram couldn't put into words at that moment, but it wasn't a dead end to me. That line whre Troy felt something different in Mhoram's "no" stayed in the back of my mind the rest of the book.
Cowboy: Why you doin' this, Doc?
Doc Holliday: Because Wyatt Earp is my friend.
Cowboy: Friend? Hell, I got lots of friends.
Doc Holliday: ... I don't.
Doc Holliday: Because Wyatt Earp is my friend.
Cowboy: Friend? Hell, I got lots of friends.
Doc Holliday: ... I don't.
Edit: Since I went on and on, about this, I decided to put a disclaimer up front. I'm really not motivated to *convince* you. I will explain the context that led me to my conclusions. But I think if SRD were to respond to this discussion, he would suggest that different readers will view things differently, and that there would be no reason why both interpretations can't be fair.
In any event, I wouldn't put it past him to connect the woman, Elena, and Covenant into one metaphor.
...
Anyway, I'm doing my best to put this together using the elegant abomination called Amazon's "search inside" feature.
The parts of the woman's story that seemed to relate to Elena were as follows...
1. The woman was the kind of person that you "can't interrupt" -- when her toes were numb, she just kept going and that led to them being amputated.
I think Elena is similar; you can't interrupt her. She's such a powerful figure, and her potency is undeniable. And she lacks that same instinct for self-care; she's a leper and she doesn't know it. In the story, she's "too full of vitality and optimism to take care."
2. The woman in the leprosarium takes up folkdancing, but it is too much for her and she falters and falls too many times, taking too many injuries.
Elena is similar. Certainly she is beautiful and powerful, but the Lore is too much for her, just as folkdancing was too much for the woman. The woman is too numb and has too little insight into her condition to take up folkdancing. Elena is too wounded and too unstable, with too little insight into herself, to wield too much power (i.e., the EarthBlood).
3. The doctors kept the woman in the leprosarium for some time, but ultimately they let her go.
The doctors have good reason to keep the woman in the leprosarium, they know that she needs help and is not prepared to shoulder the burden of her own life. Despite the fact that the woman is choosing for herself, to allow her to leave is setting her up for failure.
Similarly, the Lords, enabling and allowing Elena's quest, are also allowing her to fail magnificently. Elena's raw passion is too much for her, she is too flawed to manage it, and she is not equal to the Seventh Ward.
4. The woman would tell Covenant about what a wonderful life she had lead. "She must've been all of forty years old."
Elena dies very close to age 40, given that it's been approximately 40 years since LFB. (Yeah, this is reaching.)
In my mind, the difference between Elena's "no!" and Mhoram's "no" is exceptionally poignant. Elena's response is from the gut, from her passion; she would not accept any prophecy of doom for the Land. Like the woman, she can't imagine she would fail...she has to just charge on.
Mhoram's "no" reflects both his wisdom, that he can see that the message is about Elena, and his insight into himself. I see Mhoram as being self-critical, realizing that the Lords have enabled and empowered Elena, and that they have no choice but to let her continue on.
As far as Mhoram not expressing doubt, he is not the kind of person to express doubt. Look at Trell in The Power That Preserves. EVERYONE knows he is flawed, broken inside, but would Mhoram ever cast doubt? No, he allows Trell the opportunity to redeem himself, treats him as though he has the ability to take care and heal himself. I think he makes the same "mistake" with Elena (though I wouldn't have him take any other course of action). It's his faith in people, and if he gave it up, he would not be the same person.
I certainly see the logic in her being a "foil" for Covenant. I just think that Elena is made of the same stuff.
In any event, I wouldn't put it past him to connect the woman, Elena, and Covenant into one metaphor.
...
Anyway, I'm doing my best to put this together using the elegant abomination called Amazon's "search inside" feature.
The parts of the woman's story that seemed to relate to Elena were as follows...
1. The woman was the kind of person that you "can't interrupt" -- when her toes were numb, she just kept going and that led to them being amputated.
I think Elena is similar; you can't interrupt her. She's such a powerful figure, and her potency is undeniable. And she lacks that same instinct for self-care; she's a leper and she doesn't know it. In the story, she's "too full of vitality and optimism to take care."
2. The woman in the leprosarium takes up folkdancing, but it is too much for her and she falters and falls too many times, taking too many injuries.
Elena is similar. Certainly she is beautiful and powerful, but the Lore is too much for her, just as folkdancing was too much for the woman. The woman is too numb and has too little insight into her condition to take up folkdancing. Elena is too wounded and too unstable, with too little insight into herself, to wield too much power (i.e., the EarthBlood).
3. The doctors kept the woman in the leprosarium for some time, but ultimately they let her go.
The doctors have good reason to keep the woman in the leprosarium, they know that she needs help and is not prepared to shoulder the burden of her own life. Despite the fact that the woman is choosing for herself, to allow her to leave is setting her up for failure.
Similarly, the Lords, enabling and allowing Elena's quest, are also allowing her to fail magnificently. Elena's raw passion is too much for her, she is too flawed to manage it, and she is not equal to the Seventh Ward.
4. The woman would tell Covenant about what a wonderful life she had lead. "She must've been all of forty years old."
Elena dies very close to age 40, given that it's been approximately 40 years since LFB. (Yeah, this is reaching.)
In my mind, the difference between Elena's "no!" and Mhoram's "no" is exceptionally poignant. Elena's response is from the gut, from her passion; she would not accept any prophecy of doom for the Land. Like the woman, she can't imagine she would fail...she has to just charge on.
Mhoram's "no" reflects both his wisdom, that he can see that the message is about Elena, and his insight into himself. I see Mhoram as being self-critical, realizing that the Lords have enabled and empowered Elena, and that they have no choice but to let her continue on.
As far as Mhoram not expressing doubt, he is not the kind of person to express doubt. Look at Trell in The Power That Preserves. EVERYONE knows he is flawed, broken inside, but would Mhoram ever cast doubt? No, he allows Trell the opportunity to redeem himself, treats him as though he has the ability to take care and heal himself. I think he makes the same "mistake" with Elena (though I wouldn't have him take any other course of action). It's his faith in people, and if he gave it up, he would not be the same person.
I certainly see the logic in her being a "foil" for Covenant. I just think that Elena is made of the same stuff.
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Avatar
- Immanentizing The Eschaton
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*Wipes tear away* You bastard Fist.Fist and Faith wrote:Nothing wrong with quoting it again, eh?For a moment, Covenant could not respond. But then a memory came back to him - a recollection of the formal salutation that the people of Revelstone had formerly given to the Giants. Hail and welcome, inheritor of Land's loyalty. Welcome whole or hurt, in boon or bane - ask or give. To any requiring name we will not fail. In a husky voice, he breathed:
"Giant-troth Revelstone, ancient ward-
Heart and door of Earthfriend's main:
Preserve the true with Power's sword,
Thou ages-Keeper, mountain-reign."
At that, the First turned toward him; and for an instant her face was concentrated with weeping as if he had touched her deep Giantish love of stone. Almost immediately she recovered her sternness - but not before he had seen how absolutely she was ready now to serve him. Gruffly, she said, "Thomas Covenant, I have titled you Giantfriend, but it is not enough. You are the Earthfriend. No other name suffices."
Then she went and put her arms around her husband.
--A
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wayfriend
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A good position to take. But I'm not arguing the position, I'm just asking you to explain it further so that I can see into it better. (Then again, it would be okay to disagree (if I did) and say so - it's a forum about opinions. And arguments [as in a debate, not as in shouting] are not only tolerated but generally encouraged. And you would still not be wrong.)Koriku wrote:I'm really not motivated to *convince* you.
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Great posts Koriku. I haven't been here long myself, but welcome to the Watch.Kil Tyme wrote:That whole passage is brilliant, but the above quote is almost beyond that, to me. I always loved that Troy could hear that Mhoram meant something different by his response with the same word. And now, thanks to Koriku's expert analysis, I think that he is exactally right, that for the first time Mhoram got the first inkling that Elena might share the same character flaw as the women in TC's story. Brilliant writing and analysis."No!" Elena's denial was fierce, and Mhoram breathed also, "No." But Troy could hear that Mhoram meant something different.
IMHO however, I DO NOT feel that Mhoram had gained an insight into Elena's character in this moment.
I believe this is a prelude to "Lord Mhoram's Victory" in TPTP.
The courage in that, going out to confront Satansfist when he himself does not believe he can win is forshadowed in this moment.
Remember, at this moment he has not faced the armies of Foul in battle. He has not channeled the last words of Callindril as Revelwood burned.
Elena's "No" is her saying that the Land shall not fall because Covenant will save it. She cannot truly understand, or perhaps just not want to, the despair in Covenants' story.
Mhoram's "No" takes no heed of Covenant. Or anyone else. Although he does understand the story.
This is Mhoram saying, quite simply:
I. Will. Not. Let. That. Happen.
Again, SRD made a point in TPTP of the fact that Mhoram did not know that Triock had summoned Covenant. Mhoram even accepted that TC wanted to go back to the 'real world' to save a girl from snake-bite.
The Krill lighting up gave Mhoram hope. At that stage I'm not sure he even wanted it. He just didn't want to be another Landwaster.
But the whole gist of his character for me is that after (and perhaps even before) the death of his parents in LFB he was ultimately of the same mindset as Lord Verement upon hearing of the death of Shetra.
I said it on another thread, but I see this as the momentary courage of Fingolfin in Tolkien mythology sustained for 47 years.
This is a guy who made a Raver feel fear on the very shores of Hotash Slay. And he also understood the courage Elena was showing in her support of TC.
Perhaps someone else would be kind enough to post the quote of when TC asked Mhoram why he was not High Lord.
Sorry for the overlong post, obviously I'm a bit of a Mhoram fan.
Last edited by Trapper on Sat Aug 12, 2006 3:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Again, I haven't been here long, but this place is not like other forums. At least the others I know.Koriku wrote:Edit: Since I went on and on, about this, I decided to put a disclaimer up front. I'm really not motivated to *convince* you. I will explain the context that led me to my conclusions.
You're not going on, you're simply stating your opinion, and others will not judge you harshly on that.
That's why I love this place.
My thoughts exactly. On Mhoram, anyway.Koriku wrote:Edit:
I think he makes the same "mistake" with Elena (though I wouldn't have him take any other course of action). It's his faith in people, and if he gave it up, he would not be the same person.
Your thoughts on the zest for life shared between Elena and the Woman at the Leprosarium are very well made. They've made me rethink Elena. I think perhaps I understand her desperation a little better.
I'll comment more when I've thought about that.