Kevin's Watch

Darth,

I'm with Kins on this one - you are clearly playing devil's advocate here. Condemning Nazism as a regime is not narrow-minded in the least; in fact, it's actually pretty accurate. Any nation that attempts continental, possibly even world conquest, by attempting to exterminate an entire race is clearly evil. Not every "Nazi" was evil - but the idealogy behind Nazism, and the way in which it was carried out, was certainly evil. How wasn't it?

Throwing my voice in here too--Nazism (and that putrid little turd Hitler) were evil. The German people themselves were not ever labeled as evil by anyone here, at least not that I saw.

Perhaps the Inquisition would be a contender for Most Evil, but I'm not debating about a degree more or less in evil.

Evil is Evil in my book.

heh

Nothing but love for everyone here.

My stance on this topic is simple.
I don't think it is in the Pope's place to condemn a popular series for publicity or some imagined slight in the novels. He should focus his time for more important things.
I still find it disturbing that he was a member of the German Army. The easy and most logic answer was what you've all stated. Regardless, it still makes me suspicious. Sorry, I just have a problem with people in power be apart of such things. Strom Thurmond was a staunch segregationist. Robert Byrd was a member of the KKK. George Bush sacrifices kids to an giant owl statue...wait that was in the conspiracy forum...
It just bothers me a little more than most, I suppose.

Kinslaughterer wrote: George Bush sacrifices kids to an giant owl statue...wait that was in the conspiracy forum...
It just bothers me a little more than most, I suppose.

Now this is just SLANDEROUS!!!

The very idea that GWB would sacrifice anything to an OWL, the long-time symbol for wisdom, is REPUGNANT.

I can't imagine that GWB would ever consider sacrificing to anything remotely associated with WISDOM. He'd be too scared of getting some ON HIM!!!!

hehehehehe

Now, Phobos and Deimos, maybe. The Dogs of the War God would be right up his alley.


Heheheheheheeh

*tongue firmly planted in cheek*

Kinslaughterer wrote:How in the hell am I narrow-minded by stating the Nazis were the most evil force the world has ever known? Do you know any WWII history? You're from England for god's sake...

I know more than you about WWII, most likely. I've studied the matter a lot.

So was Genghis Khan any more or less evil than Hitler? Is Bin Laden? Was the Taliban? (sp?) All I said was that they weren't the most evil force the world has ever known. Vile, yes. But there have been loads of vile (Or as you deem "evil") forces in human history. None better than any others. That is the point I was trying to make.

Kinslaughterer wrote:The Nazis weren't evil? Hold on, I didn't say all of Germany was evil or malevolent. I don't think anyone has come nearly as close to destroying the world as the Third Reich. Certainly the Cold War and Stalinist Russia were extremely dangerous but they didn't make a full attempt at world conquest.

I didn't say that the Nazi's weren't vile. Just all of them weren't.

Kinslaughterer wrote:Are you actually suggesting that the Nazis were victims of Allied propaganda? No, Hitler was not the first or the last but the most heinous. Heard of the Holocaust? It really happened.

I brought up propaganda to state that this was probably one of the main reasons why the Pope joined the Nazi Army. It was German propaganda that I was speaking of. I did not state at any point Nazi's were victims of Allied propaganda.

Kinslaughterer wrote:I dare you to find a more evil man and group than the Nazis.

I can't. Because there isn't one more vile. But there have been many that have been equally evil. *That* is the point I was making when you stated that the "Nazi's were the most evil force the world has ever known". They aren't, there have been many people(s) that have treated others with the same vileness, level of inhuman treatment, in the world. What about what American and English captives suffered at the hands of the Japanese in WWII? Are the things they went through any better than the Jews went through, any less vile?
[/quote]

Darth,

I challenge you to show me another regime that attempted the widespread genocide of an entire race.

You essentially have no point. If you can't come up with another equally evil regime then they are indeed the most evil force the world has ever seen.

I think you are lessening the abomination of the Nazis by attempting to compare them very unequally to other "vile" groups. None possessed the same destructive, sinister ideology that Hitler, Himmler, and the rest created. Superior race, the Holocaust (6 million non-combatants), nightmarish experiments, the list goes on. But I firmly stand by "the most evil force the world has ever known." Others have committed atrocities but none to the extent as the Nazis.

I know more than you about WWII, most likely. I've studied the matter a lot.

So was Genghis Khan any more or less evil than Hitler? Is Bin Laden? Was the Taliban? (sp?) All I said was that they weren't the most evil force the world has ever known. Vile, yes. But there have been loads of vile (Or as you deem "evil") forces in human history. None better than any others. That is the point I was trying to make

WWII was my focus as an history undergrad, but regardless what do you mean by better? And you contradict yourself here:

I can't. Because there isn't one more vile

Anyway defining a hierarchy of evil is really quite irrelevant in terms of this topic. But you should answer Mhoram's question first.

I must agree with Darth in the sense that many nations/groups/leaders have attempted genocide. The recent Rwandan Genocide has been called "the fastest genocide ever attempted", with neary 1 million people killed in three months.

Genghiz Khan, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Stalin, to mention only a few. 6 million in the holocaust? Stalins pogroms eliminated an estimated 10 million. This is by no means to suggest that any of these are acceptable or excusable, but I'll certainly agree with Darth that the Nazi's were no isolated case. Mans inhumanity to Man is well documented.

The most evil force the world has ever seen? Apart from the inherent subjectivity of that, (ask a Cambodian who was the most evil force ever, ask an Iraqi, or a citizen of the Belgian Congo during Leopold II's reign), what are we basing it on? The number of people killed? The inhumanities perpetrated? "Evil" is by no means a monopoly. Hell, if we base it on numbers, wouldn't Stalin be the worst of the 20th Century?

The Nazi's may have been an abomination, but they're by no means the only, and perhaps even not the worst. They're easy though, because they were, and continue to be, well publicised.

--Avatar

Somehow this ranking of malevolence has no meaning in the scheme of the post.

I'm saying that the "ranking of malevolence" is a subjective excercise at best, that's all.

And while I agree that it has little or nothing to do with the topic, I'll just point out that you were the one who suggested somebody mention a "more evil" group.

Whether we can find somebody more evil is equally moot, but certainly some I mentioned were as evil, depending on subjective criteria.

--A

just because less people are hurt in the vile acts I mentioned above (American's who were captured by the Japanese, the people who got killed by Saddam in the genocides he performed, Bin Laden, the Taliban) doesn't make them any less vile or humane, or in your words, evil. The fact some of you think that the innocent people that were killed by some of these people/groups listed are more humane, less evil, is disturbing.

Also, great post by Avatar. Your posting knows no flaws av, as ever.

Inspired by this topic, I decided to post something about Harry Potter in a Christian forum I go to on occasion. Oh dear, it was scary. All the rational people who were posting were quickly overwhelmed by the irrational posters. *bashes head repeatedly against desk* It was like talking to a bunch of brick walls. Why can't more people argue as well as you guys?

Iryssa wrote:Inspired by this topic, I decided to post something about Harry Potter in a Christian forum I go to on occasion. Oh dear, it was scary. All the rational people who were posting were quickly overwhelmed by the irrational posters. *bashes head repeatedly against desk* It was like talking to a bunch of brick walls. Why can't more people argue as well as you guys?

You think that's bad, try Tolkien sometime. Or simply do a google search about Lord of the Rings and Satanism or something similar. I had no idea until Taraswizard told me that there are a lot of people out there who think Tolkien was a Satanist.

Kins, 10 million people were exterminated in the Holocaust, 6 million were Jews.

By far the most evil regime and evil man the world has ever seen with the highest body count is the USSRand Joe Stalin.

How soon we forget.

www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war/kbank/profiles/stalin/

Not taking away from Nazi Germany, Cambodia, Rwanda, or the other times and places mentioned...but Stalinist Russia was truly an abomination upon the earth.

My books are at home and I am at work, but here are a couple of stories I remember from a biography of that crazy, paranoid bastard Stalin (I might have misremembered a few details, but the flavor remains the same):

Stalin and some cronies were doing some drunken star watching one night. They didn't know the names of some of the stars. A KGB car was dispatched to find an astronomy professor, to bring him to the party so he could tell the partiers the names of the various stars. When he saw the distinctive KGB car pull up, the first professor blew his brains out with his pistol rather than be taken. The second professor had a fatal heart attack on the spot because he was so frightened. The third guy threw himself off a roof...and so it went.

One of the elite hockey teams was killed in a transportation accident in a winter storm. No one's fault, it was just an unfortunate accident in bad weather. But Stalin thought that having some of the biggest sports stars in the country getting killed in an accident somehow made his government look bad. So the news about the accident was never released. So you have this entire well known team suddenly disappear in the middle of the season with no explanation whatsoever. This was at a time of high purges so all the fans thought the team had been lined up against a wall and shot or something. And it was a time and place when you couldn't even ask what happened. If you did you would be the next to vanish. It was years and years and years and years (after Stalin's death) before the truth was declassified, and people found out what happend to their favorite athletes.

And we won't even talk about the lives and deaths of his first wife and the son he had with her.

In Stalinist Russia, it did not matter who you were or what you did for a living. It didn't matter how important you were or how unimportant you were. You felt that you and everyone you loved was in danger every moment of every day -- and you felt like that because it was true.

duchess,

Stalinist Russia was one of the worst regimes to ever come into being. Stalin was indeed a monster.

Compared to Nazi Germany? I'm not one to judge. The fact is, they were both as duchess said, abominations. Ranking them as "most evil" suddenly seems pretty trivial.

Lord Mhoram wrote:Ranking them as "most evil" suddenly seems pretty trivial.

Well said.

--A

One of the human races greatest downfalls is in it recognition of evil.Harry Potter is a family experience at my house,my 2 year old loves the films,and the audiobooks,my four year old is smitten,and the new book caused much excitement for both my wife and I.My wife has an aunt who has given us a speech about Harry being demonic(she's an idiot,we just try to ignore her and keep the peace)this same Bible thumping aunt's favorite television program is Desperate Housewives.These people(Pope included)need to use their brains and worry about the worlds real problems,and piss off and leave something that incourages literacy,and re-enforces the principle of good v.s. evil alone.Go Harry! and booooo Pope.(disclaimer:nothing against the Pope-I just think he is wasting thought on condeming Harry Potter,and making himself look silly-bad move Pope).

Sunbaneglasses,

My wife has an aunt who has given us a speech about Harry being demonic(she's an idiot,we just try to ignore her and keep the peace)this same Bible thumping aunt's favorite television program is desperate Housewives

Wow. How hypocritical.

Sunbaneglasses--

Are you sure we aren't related somehow??

I have that same aunt!

She told my brother and I we were practicing Satanism and Demonology because we played D&D, during which we pretended we killed imaginary monsters to achieve imaginary status and treasure (and, since we were always in the good alignment, conquering evil).

Her sons played RISK, in which they pretended to lay waste to real countries and peoples to achieve imaginary total world domination.

How is one worse than the other?

A lot of my MOST fanatical relatives are huge fans of soap operas, which are the most degrading things to either sex I've ever seen!

Heh

And they tell ME I'm going to hell for reading my science fiction and getting tattoes.