Kevin's Watch

Elena also chose to ride with the Ranyhyn. There was no kidnapping involve. Hell, if anyone got raped, it was the Ranyhyn who were 'forced' into this contract by Covenant. However, just because an action has unintended consequences does not make it rape. When Mufasa took Simba aside to show his kingdom and unintentionally planted the idea of visiting the elephant graveyard in his head, he didn't rape him. Rape is an immediate violation which tends to bring shame to the victim. Elena wasn't sobbing outside the village after the horserite, she felt privileged.

Also, no I do not view Lord Foul as the epitome of rapist. He's something far worse, yet less. He's an instigator, the catalyst that drives people to do terrible things they otherwise would not have done.

Knowing she was covenants daughter and recognising her potential to be a pivotal person I think the ranyhyn did what they thought was right, can't see that as rape. It wasn't an act of violence it was a gift of insight, they taught her the bone melding craft too, something that unlocked the lords inability to master kevins lore. Elena in the power that preserves was what she could have become without the ranyhyn and triocks intervention.
Unforeseen consequences is a theme of the chronicles, without the hatred of foul brought forth from the horserite maybe Elena would not have been so passionate to ignore the dangers in using the earthblood.
Then again I think the breaking of the law of death needed to happen to bring about fouls demise...maybe we shouldn't judge her actions just yet

I thought the ranyhyn's act was a massive violation of the little girl, too. It was violent and permanent. I felt sorry for her when she first shared that story.

Gosh it's amazing how people reading the same words on a page can see a different story in them acording to to the context they view them from. It makes me wonder if any of us ever really read the same story at all. No wonder works like Heder Gabler can be presented on stage as completely different plays just depending on how the same words are presented and skewd. Perhaps every work should come with an 'authors mannual to take us through it's intended (true?) meaning.

Really fascinating though - I hadn't really thought that it might be regarded as violation - I was stuck, I guess, in Fantasy-think, and just went along with the idea that it was a great honour for young Elena to be taken to the Horserite - this has shifted my perspective for sure.

Me too Barnetto. This may be a risky thing to say, but I wonder if it's a 'male/female thing'. ie our different perceptions of the risk to the child presented by this situation.

peter wrote:Me too Barnetto. This may be a risky thing to say, but I wonder if it's a 'male/female thing'. ie our different perceptions of the risk to the child presented by this situation.

Is the dividing line among us a male-female one? If I'm right and you're male and I'm male your theory fails from the get-go.

To be fair to Peter, I would imagine he was suggesting the point as a very broad generalisation rather than a "bright line". In which case, I would suspect he may be (very broadly and in the heavily caveated manor that one must make these points) along the right lines.

Wow Shoe - how silly do I feel. Like a complete idiot I saw the picture of the shoe with windows etc, a lifetimes conditioning of 'There was an old woman...etc etc' subconciously kicked in and I never questioned that the gender of the person behind the Avatar had to be female. What a fool!

Yes that does scupper the gender perception thing from the outset though it would be interesting to know the breakdown of what number of people saw this episode as you did, as opposed to the way Barnetto and I experienced it ("stuck in fantasy-think" - I love it!) and their genders.

I wonder - I'm an oldish man from a time when perhaps we were less aware of many of the kinds of danger facing children than we are today. Perhaps this has a bearing on our inability to see at first sight what, now it is drawn to the fore, is a fairly obviouse spin on the events of this bit of the Chrons.

Don't think it's a male/female thing, it's a fact that the reader contributes to 50% of the story when reading, so peoples perceptions say as much about them as the characters..beware! Haha
I always try to follow what the author is making pretty clear in the dialogue and characters perceptions which in this case show the horserite as an honour and something Elena was proud to have been part of

jonnyredleader wrote:Don't think it's a male/female thing, it's a fact that the reader contributes to 50% of the story when reading, so peoples perceptions say as much about them as the characters..beware! Haha
I always try to follow what the author is making pretty clear in the dialogue and characters perceptions which in this case show the horserite as an honour and something Elena was proud to have been part of

I don't know. Elena was proud, but Covenant expresses grief and dread when she tells this tale. I don't think it is so cut and dry that this is meant to be merely a lovely tale of a little princess getting an honour.

peter wrote:Wow Shoe - how silly do I feel. Like a complete idiot I saw the picture of the shoe with windows etc, a lifetimes conditioning of 'There was an old woman...etc etc' subconciously kicked in and I never questioned that the gender of the person behind the Avatar had to be female. What a fool!

Yes that does scupper the gender perception thing from the outset though it would be interesting to know the breakdown of what number of people saw this episode as you did, as opposed to the way Barnetto and I experienced it ("stuck in fantasy-think" - I love it!) and their genders.

I wonder - I'm an oldish man from a time when perhaps we were less aware of many of the kinds of danger facing children than we are today. Perhaps this has a bearing on our inability to see at first sight what, now it is drawn to the fore, is a fairly obviouse spin on the events of this bit of the Chrons.

This kind of division can cut in any number of ways. You proposed that females are more likely to perceive a rape in a story scene than males because they're more sensitive to that sort of thing. Equally, we can argue, males would be more protective of the weaker sex than independent women, or as you are now proposing the division is actually between the older and younger generation (who are more protective of their children).

In the end the test-group is so small, any kind of statistic conclusion would be extremely weak. I said I disprove your genderline division theory because I'm something like 33-50% of the group that think there's an allusion to rape here and happens to be male.

jonnyredleader wrote:Don't think it's a male/female thing, it's a fact that the reader contributes to 50% of the story when reading, so peoples perceptions say as much about them as the characters..beware! Haha
I always try to follow what the author is making pretty clear in the dialogue and characters perceptions which in this case show the horserite as an honour and something Elena was proud to have been part of

This seems like an overstatement. A text is as clear as its author makes it. If interpretation was that subjective, discussions about books and characters (like in this and other forums) would be practically useless, which I don't think it is. Think for a moment about book threads you've participated in. Do you feel like you and the rest of the participants were each in your own (50%-)private worlds, failing to communicate and reach any common understanding?

To a point yes, my views of the characters are my own from my own perspective, don't see it as rape full stop. Don't see Elena as someone that is naive or resentful, she doesn't utter regret or resentment to either covenant or ranyhyn, she talks of both proudly. She is a high lord chosen by the council, peoples views of both sometimes leave me thinking they've read a completely different book. I think we can see more than there is, Donaldson usually makes these points really clearly as suggested by a lot of the answers to questions in the GI

Yea, actually, I believe Anada is the only female weighing in recently on this train of thought.

I'm male, and I see it as violation, though, I think that's probably down to re-interpretation after seeing Linden describe her experience, and not necessarily my initial interpretation after only hearing Elena's side of it.

I think there is no doubt Elena felt some shame, though, even before we saw Linden's ordeal.

Covenant's reaction is typical Covenant, because he feels guilty over having created the situation that produced Elena, who was so willing to leap to the defense of the Land, all while he was still feverishly holding to his policy of inactivity.
Her actions made him feel responsible, because he knew he was responsible for her.

dw

sindatur wrote:Yea, actually, I believe Anada is the only female weighing in recently on this train of thought.

I'm male, and I see it as violation, though, I think that's probably down to re-interpretation after seeing Linden describe her experience, and not necessarily my initial interpretation after only hearing Elena's side of it.

I think there is no doubt Elena felt some shame, though, even before we saw Linden's ordeal.

Hmmm....I'll have to look at this when I'm back with my books. But it seemed to me Elena's feelings of shame are because she misinterpreted the lesson, not that it was taught.

If we're going to consider rape, we have to consider Donaldson's view on rape. About which he says, "It's an apt metaphor for evil. [...] I could argue that virtually any act that might plausibly be called evil can be described as a form of rape."

So, on the one hand, he opens the door, and allows that there are forms of rape which may not look exactly like dictionary rape.

But on the other hand, we have to find the evil in the act before we can consider it a rape of some form.

So ... was there evil in what the Ranyhyn had done to Elena?

I can't find any, either by design or by by consequence.

The Ranynyn were trying to inform Elena. They wanted Elena to understand something, about the Ranyhyn, and about Lord Foul. I can't find that to be evil.

Nor do I think that this deed harmed Elena in any way. She was damaged by other things, not by the Ranyhyn.

Then again, I am having a hard time finding "violation" in what the Ranyhyn have done. Unless you declare any loss of innocense in any form, or acquisition of knowledge in any way, a violation.

I didn't use the word 'rape' in this context and I don't think it is the right word to use. Rape is rape, it's not a metaphor, though I can see how a man might want to think of it that way instead of for what it is.

To me, the abduction of the child was a violation. They took her and altered her without consent. They could have asked since, as we have seen, the ramen can communicate with them on some level and one of them could have been sent to ask permission. Though, Lena was so damaged that she probably would have consented. But, they still could have asked.

So, yes, I still feel sorry for the little girl who was taken away and changed without permission. It was a violation of her, but not rape. Rape is rape, and, if you ever have experienced it, you won't confuse the two things.

Ananda wrote:I didn't use the word 'rape' in this context and I don't think it is the right word to use. Rape is rape, it's not a metaphor, though I can see how a man might want to think of it that way instead of for what it is.

To me, the abduction of the child was a violation. They took her and altered her without consent. They could have asked since, as we have seen, the ramen can communicate with them on some level and one of them could have been sent to ask permission. Though, Lena was so damaged that she probably would have consented. But, they still could have asked.

So, yes, I still feel sorry for the little girl who was taken away and changed without permission. It was a violation of her, but not rape. Rape is rape, and, if you ever have experienced it, you won't confuse the two things.

Yea, that's why I've tried to stick to using the "violated"

i might have overlooked this but where does it say Elena felt shame about the Ranyhyn experience?
she talks almost reverently and proudly of her privelage and honour that the horses gave her, she loves the horses in every piece of dialogue and action in the books.
When Elenas ranyhyn dies at the landslide she is so upset she rages at covenant, not the actions of someone thats been violated and is in shame. If anything she shows how much she adores them..and they her.
Lindens own view of the horserite doesnt make it Elenas just as we here have differing views. Linden has very strong feelings about this.

The only questionable side to the horserite is whether it was to blame for her vehemence towards Foul and his destruction which lead to her downfall and whether the Ranyhyns attempt actually caused what they hoped to avoid. Elena as covenants daughter was always going to be a figure of power in the land.
having said that i think covenants act of passionate violence to Lena was part of this too so its hard to lay the blame completely there.