What God Wants *Debate (Believers Welcome, But Be Warned)*

[[Syl]]

Wow.

You are no longer a Christian because your shame is so great that you cannot bear to bring yourself to God even though He loves you just as much as Billy Graham or anyone else on the planet. If there were no shame, you wouldn't bring it up every 15 minutes jumping over papermoons with a singsong Richard Simmons voice announcing, "I'm gay! I'm gay!"

Is that the total sum of who you are? My bet is that when the person you love and you have talks about God this doesn't come up unless your sick of talking about God and need a fast copout.

Sorry to jump down your throat, but I don't sometimes that's exactly what we need. Ask yourself if anyone at Kevin's Watch doesn't respect you and wouldn't give their time and money to you if you were in need. If someone posted, Variol Son has AIDS (I mention this only because you keep bringing GAY up) and he needs our help. Please write to him in the hospital, even a little greeting card will help. DO you know anyone, ANYONE here that would belittle that? Or do you expect that you'd get a whole lot of mail in that hospital? How much more do you think God loves you regardless of what you label yourself?

Y'know, I don't like bashing newbies, not even so far as to call someone a newbie, but where does someone with <100 posts and a month and a half of being on the board get the balls to make those kinds of assessments? It requires a... majestic level of assumption. Those kind of generalizations, including automatically associating AIDS with gay people, rise to the level of stereotypes.

Now maybe I'm the only one who sees your post as a little insulting, and I can even accept that you're trying to help. I can only say I find your method about as a cold as the west wind.

[variol son]

Hehe, thanks for defending me Syl, but I'm ok.

SalotHSaR, I think you misunderstood me a little, but that gets dealt with in my big post further up. I would like to add that I am finding this conversation enjoyable and enlightening. Thank you.

As for the connection between homosexuality and HIV/AIDS, while there has been some historical truth in such corolations, it is no longer the case.

[SalotHSaR]

Now maybe I'm the only one who sees your post as a little insulting, and I can even accept that you're trying to help. I can only say I find your method about as a cold as the west wind.

Hmmm.. That's funny. I thought I was assertive & straightforward, expressing compassion & love are more available than they would be in the case of some kind of personal tragedy. But then again, I wrote it.


You're welcome to think anything you wish of me; I'd just like it better if you put that gun down before I give you real respect because waving that six-shooter is only going to get you the kind of respect murderers expect and resent all at once. (it's a joke, if you don't get it; but it also has a ring of truth to it. Variol Son is quite capable of defending himself. Just because he's gay doesn't mean he's emotionally weak. I've heard it somewhere that the only thing a gay man would rather do than make love to a man is to fight one. So back off. I mean that in the kindest sense.)

[SalotHSaR]

Hehe, thanks for defending me Syl, but I'm ok.

SalotHSaR, I think you misunderstood me a little, but that gets dealt with in my big post further up. I would like to add that I am finding this conversation enjoyable and enlightening. Thank you.

As for the connection between homosexuality and HIV/AIDS, while there has been some historical truth in such corolations, it is no longer the case.

I meant no offense really. When I first started posting, I indicated that I read here quite often. That's true. Also, some might have seen that I made a couple of posts then shut up and then made a couple posts and disappeared for a couple months and then started talking.

I can't say that I understand everything about anyone here or anyone that I know in real life either for that matter. It just seems to me that you resent having the stigma of being labeled gay, homo, fag or whatever you dislike and yet you also label yourself these things from time to time as if to remind everyone, and as if this is the sum of who you are, which it is not.

What does it matter if I sleep with prostitutes to you? OR if I'm married, divorced, single, or gay, or bisexual, or interested in apes. It's not your business and you don't see straight people mentioning it all the time. Unless you actually like the interactions (both good and bad) that it brings? Honestly VS, why bring it up? And don't hide behind the topic. We all sin here. Everyone one of us has skeletons we sometimes or never share but we all have them. What purpose does it serve to announce your sexuality?

If you have a good response & people like it (not me, maybe that doesn't matter) then I'll never speak of it again or I will bring it up without confronting you about why you bring it up. But honestly, what's the purpose? Is there one? Do you just like the attention? Do you like shrieking open the curtains in the wee early morning to see if there are vampires that will scream and hiss at you about it? Because to be quite honest, I'd rather hear about your viewpoints and your ethics and your morals and how you think rather than hear 'woe is me, I'm a homosexual'.

Maybe I was wrong all along. Maybe this post has nothing to do with my faith and it belongs to you. I sure would like to hear more about Variol Son. I think we all would. Or I could just disappear again because people think you're weak and can't defend yourself when it would be obvious to any outsider that I mean no harm and that rather I'm the one trying to help. But maybe you don't need my help. Maybe I'm just interfering. You make the call and I'll abide by it. You obviously have more time invested here. Isn't that what matters the most? Who has the most posts? I'll do whatever you wish. It's up to you. But one thing I won't do is "nothing" when I see that I can simply hold up a mirror and ask you what you see. If you think me an ass for bringing it up then I'll go away. If you find me to be brave enough to tell you that you have toilet paper hanging out of your drawers and you're grateful although a little mad because you're embarrassed then that's fine to. Whatever Variol Son wants; that's how it shall be.

[Prebe]

In other words, believing that God wants you to burn because you're gay is as narrow-minded as the so-called "Christians" who want you to burn because you're gay.

I think you are a nice guy, and I know you are not a fundy. But you did say that you think that non-belivers don't get into heaven. So I suppose, VS will have to take up worship again (regardless of sexual preference), to be wecome into your heaven?

[[Syl]]

It's down to making jokes about eachother's avatars, is it? Clever. I'd explain the concept behind that choice of archetype, but it shouldn't be too hard for someone of your wit to decipher.

But let's talk about respect. I do not find it respectful to characterize VS as, " jumping over papermoons with a singsong Richard Simmons voice announcing, 'I'm gay! I'm gay!'" It's a juvenile attempt at humor, and though VS is indeed quite capable of handling it himself, it is not a trend I wish to see gain root at KW.

And fortunately for me, I have the power to enforce my vision of what I think the Watch should or should not be like. Y'see, Sal, I don't need the gun. I'm the sheriff in these parts (if you doubt me, go to the main page of The Close and look at that line that says 'moderators.'). Not that I should even need to use that title, nor the chop that comes with it. I have respect. And though I may be pissing away a little bit of it here with this pissing contest, what I lose is just a drop in the bucket, and that drop is more than you have (though before this, my respect for you was pretty high).

So you'll understand when I say that maybe you should back off... in the most kind sense, of course.

[sgt.null]

i'm betting God doesn't want such divisions as we see here on this topic.

and as i've said before, if folks would worry more about themselves and their state of salvation, the world would be better off.

God makes the final judgement, so any venom we have for our fellow man only poisons us.

but what do i know...

[Dromond]

Salothsar:

Just asking... were you Zeph in a past life?

[Prebe]

i'm betting God doesn't want such divisions as we see here on this topic.

According to some parts of the bible he does.

Edit: I also suspect that SalothSaR could be the Mr. Hyde of someone’s Dr. Jekyll.

And SalothSaR: Variol Son mentioned that he was gay, because his church's attitude toward gays was one of intolerance, which made him quit. It would be quite hard to make that point, without mentioning sexual orientation don't you think?

It was not "My favourite colour is yellow, and by the way, I'm gay."

IF any gay feels the need to shout out the fact at every occasion, it is probably because the majority of our intolerant society feels that "hey! He was hiding it. Why didn’t he tell?"

[CovenantJr]

And SalothSaR: Variol Son mentioned that he was gay, because his church's attitude toward gays was one of intolerance, which made him quit. It would be quite hard to make that point, without mentioning sexual orientation don't you think?

It was not "My favourite colour is yellow, and by the way, I'm gay."

Exactly. Clearly put.

It's down to making jokes about eachother's avatars, is it? Clever. I'd explain the concept behind that choice of archetype, but it shouldn't be too hard for someone of your wit to decipher.

But let's talk about respect. I do not find it respectful to characterize VS as, " jumping over papermoons with a singsong Richard Simmons voice announcing, 'I'm gay! I'm gay!'" It's a juvenile attempt at humor, and though VS is indeed quite capable of handling it himself, it is not a trend I wish to see gain root at KW.

And fortunately for me, I have the power to enforce my vision of what I think the Watch should or should not be like. Y'see, Sal, I don't need the gun. I'm the sheriff in these parts (if you doubt me, go to the main page of The Close and look at that line that says 'moderators.'). Not that I should even need to use that title, nor the chop that comes with it. I have respect. And though I may be pissing away a little bit of it here with this pissing contest, what I lose is just a drop in the bucket, and that drop is more than you have (though before this, my respect for you was pretty high).

So you'll understand when I say that maybe you should back off... in the most kind sense, of course.

Indeed. SalotHSaR, I got the impression that your intentions were noble with that post, but I also found it insulting, and it wasn't even aimed at me. Though we all know VS is quite capable of taking care of himself, he's been a member here for some time and consequently has a number of friends who will step into the breach if they witness something they consider an attack, as friends are wont to do. This applies still more to Syl in this forum, since, as he said, he is the law in these parts and as such part of his role is to regulate behaviour he deems inappropriate.

As an aside, if you were a frequenter of message boards, you'd know that most sites are far less tolerant than the Watch, and attacking a moderator for performing his duties on such a site would earn you more than an eloquent ticking off. In short: if a moderator calls you on your behaviour, pay heed, for they have been selected as representatives of the will of the admins.

[CovenantJr]

I will not sell my soul to God.

No one's asking you to, including God.

But if you don't then you burn in hell forever.

Precisely. If I don't believe, no matter how good I am, I go to hell. The only way to get round that is to subscribe to a religious doctrine that doesn't gel with my character in the slightest (I prefer my own form of custom religion, devised by me as I go along). To go to heaven, I must sacrifice my own principles to follow a system with which I disagree.

I appreciate your kinds words Cail.

But I still won't sell my soul to God

[[Syl]]

But will you sell your soul for guilt?

[CovenantJr]

Right now, on my wheat-free diet, I'd sell my soul for a decent sandwich

[Cail]

What I was objecting to was the word "sell".

And even if you don't believe, tell the doorman that you know me. I'll vouch for you.

[I'm Murrin]

I will not sell my soul to God.

No one's asking you to, including God.

But if you don't then you burn in hell forever.

Precisely. If I don't believe, no matter how good I am, I go to hell. The only way to get round that is to subscribe to a religious doctrine that doesn't gel with my character in the slightest (I prefer my own form of custom religion, devised by me as I go along). To go to heaven, I must sacrifice my own principles to follow a system with which I disagree.

I appreciate your kinds words Cail.

But I still won't sell my soul to God

A strange idea, really: God gives you free will, then rewards you for going along with everyone else and doing only what He says.

[Edge]

Misconception number 1: 'You have to follow a set of rules to be a Christian'.

- Jesus came to fulfill the law, so we wouldn't be bound to it. That's the whole basis of Christianity! If you try to 'get to Heaven' by following a set of rules, you're denying the power and reality of Jesus' life, death and resurrection.

Misconception number 2: 'God has some sort of character flaw, that gives Him a pathological need for worship, for zombie-followers, whatever'.

- Part of God's perfection is perfect love. He loves unconditionally and unswervingly. He doesn't need or demand anything from us. He sometimes asks things of us, just as He expects us to ask some things of Him. It's one of the things that friends do.

I don't have any scientific or quantifiable proofs for this; the only 'proofs' I can offer are purely subjective:

I know God. I talk to Him; He talks to me. I know by personal experience that He is unconditionally loving. It's not something I choose to believe because someone tells me to 'have faith'. It's something I can't help believing because of the evidence of what I have seen, heard, and experienced.

Despite having really bad, even abusive, experiences with churches and with 'Christians', and till recently not having set foot in a church for years, there is absolutely no way I could suddenly decide to believe differently about His existence or His character. It would be like suddenly deciding not to believe in air, or water.

My theology changes constantly - when it comes to subjects such as who will or will not spend eternity with God, my beliefs are unrecognisable from what they were a decade ago. But my belief in a God who loves perfectly and unconditionally remains.

...

Now, the short answer to the question, 'what does God want from us':

He has shown you, oh mankind, what is good - and what does the Lord require of you? But to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.

- Micah 6:8

[Plissken]

Now, the short answer to the question, 'what does God want from us':

He has shown you, oh mankind, what is good - and what does the Lord require of you? But to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.

- Micah 6:8

This is type of belief I can get behind - even as an Agnostic.

[Furls Fire]

Brian...Amen

[Cail]

Edge, you humble me.

[Prebe]

Edge: I dig on your love man!
(no sarcasm intended)