Lets talk about Faith

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Fri Sep 12, 2003 3:10 pm

I'd appreciate a post or two on the I Ching. Don't know nuthin' about it.

Post by **Ryzel** » Thu Sep 18, 2003 9:34 am

Fist and Faith wrote:Ryzel,
I don't know where that's from. Translations can be VERY different from one another, but after reading a few, you sort of get the point, and can recognize a new translation. But that doesn't sound like the 4th verse of the Tao Te Ching to me. What is it?

It is indeed the fourth verse of the Tao, but I do not know which fourth verse it is. (I think I downloaded the books from Project Gutenberg a long time ago and I do not have them here.)

Anyway the ideas of the Tao is something I have not studied, really. They might make more sense if studied more closely but I have this idea that no matter how understandable they are they will not be all that agreeable with me.

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Thu Sep 18, 2003 11:03 am

Well, there's always that possibility.

I think taoism has its place - it kind of keeps me rooted. But we're creatures of passion, and I wouldn't give that up for anthing. Beethoven's music was not the result of a taoist/zen mind.

Post by **birdandbear** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:47 am

*bump*

ShadowLurker · Post by **ShadowLurker** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 7:44 pm

This thread seemed a very good place to put this quote.

"Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens." -J.R.R. Tolkien

Brilliant man, Tolkien.

Post by **Furls Fire** » Thu Nov 27, 2003 4:47 am

That he was Shadow

Hey, and may I say I'm happy to see you posting to other threads...

Now, if I could just presuade you to join..I'll even give you some WGD's, so you can get a flashy title and colors.

Post by **Dromond** » Thu Nov 27, 2003 4:59 am

Huh? Flashy colors for Shadowlurker? Do you Rave?

Post by **Furls Fire** » Thu Nov 27, 2003 5:03 am

Well, it's time he come out of the "shadows"..he's been coming here for 6 months skulking and lurking around like a ghost. Hehehe, sorry Shadow, guess I'm giving away your secrets

ShadowLurker · Post by **ShadowLurker** » Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:14 pm

heh, well that one isn't all that serious. Just don't go blabbing all my deeper, darker ones. I need to keep my mysterious persona intact you know.

Reading your brother's journal entries has gotten me thinking alot about faith recently. Whether it be faith in a higher being, faith in oneself, faith in other people. I came to a question, are belief and faith one in the same? I lean toward no. We can believe in this higher being, but we may not have faith in him. Which led to another, are faith and trust one in the same? Do I trust myself to do what is right, do I have faith in myself to do what is right? I found myself re-reading your brother's entry on the day his friend died. He said:

Stephen C wrote: I questioned God today. Failed in my faith, seeking an easy answer to this pain. Hard to bear, this day, a day when another friend was lost. I forgot my faith, my belief, my essential acceptance of that which I cannot change. So, I questioned God. Alex more important than me, yet I am still here. For what reason? Ah, Steve, why ask? Ask why a bird flies, why the sea rolls, why a dream fades so quickly after waking? Yet, still I questioned Him today. As I said I never would. Is my acceptance that frail? My faith that weak? Am I a liar to myself, am I that false?

It seems to me that such strong faith as this, such strong trust as this would fall hard. As it did on that day for your brother. He felt betrayed by the God he had placed so much trust in. And yet, after all that, faith being as strong in him as it was, he reclaimed it. That inspires me and astounds me.

I remember that song line you quoted to me, I can not remember the artist's name you mentioned, but I remember the line... "isn't faith believing all power can't be seen?" And that is true. It is believing in that which can't be seen, trusting your belief, trusting your faith. So, maybe belief and faith are one in the same, afterall?

Well, I am not sure I have made any sense at all. This is why I do not post often. I do not wish to come off like a buffoon who rambles on and says nothing.

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Thu Nov 27, 2003 5:32 pm

Well I, as I have made clear time and again, have no such reservations!

I think you were right at first, thinking that belief and faith are different. I thought you explained it very well. If I believed that the God my brother worships existed, I would not have faith in Him. But I suspect that I would have faith in the God Stephen believed in, if I believed He existed.

Amusingly, or at least ironically, both my brother and Fire's claim to be Christians. But my brother believes that God is more about fear and exclusion, as opposed to Stephen's God of love and hope. Of course, my brother would argue that his God is all about love and hope. But I know what he usually talks about, as opposed to what Stephen always talks about.

Post by **Kinslaughterer** » Thu Nov 27, 2003 5:42 pm

Yes, God would be even better if humans would just stop making him look so bad...

ShadowLurker · Post by **ShadowLurker** » Fri Nov 28, 2003 3:32 pm

Fist and Faith wrote:I think you were right at first, thinking that belief and faith are different. I thought you explained it very well. If I believed that the God my brother worships existed, I would not have faith in Him. But I suspect that I would have faith in the God Stephen believed in, if I believed He existed.

Amazing, isn't it? How different the views of "god" are by those who believe. And the different levels of faith attributed to such god. I think the reason Fire's brother astounds me so is the fact that his faith was so deep and strong that he was literally lost without it. You are right, he did not see God as the "burn in hell for your sins" God that others do. The God he had faith and trust in was about love and hope and forgiveness. And he was so honest about it, so damned honest. Who goes around admitting they were angry at God, questioned their God, without worrying about condemnation? That man.

Fist and Faith wrote:Amusingly, or at least ironically, both my brother and Fire's claim to be Christians. But my brother believes that God is more about fear and exclusion, as opposed to Stephen's God of love and hope. Of course, my brother would argue that his God is all about love and hope. But I know what he usually talks about, as opposed to what Stephen always talks about.

It is that fear. That fear that some believe if they question thier belief, their faith, that they will be struck down. Which, of course, turns into the hypocricy of religion. "Do what we want all week, and remember God on Sunday". Some just go through the motions of faith and belief, to appear as Christains, to be percieved as "good followers".

Then there are people like Stephen and Fire. Who live it and breathe it, and show it in everything they do, and leave it with everyone they touch. Fire is amazing (I think I'm about to embarass her), I have started emailing her, at first it was just about writing and her story. Now, I find myself bearing my soul to her, and she is so accepting and warm. She talks like Stephen, about faith and hope, and about the God she believes in. (You're blushing now, aren't you Fire?) But, she never tries to sway me, never tries to tell me wwhat I have to believe, she just says that is where her strength comes from. From this unwavering, deep-rooted, soul-strong faith. I wish I had one tenth of it to be honest.

Post by **Furls Fire** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 3:59 pm

My goodness Shadow

huggles

I'm wondering if it was a good idea now to push you so hard to post to other threads.

You've rendered me speechless. Thank you so much for your kind words.

You too, Fist

Most of us have something or someone we hold faith in. For me, it's God. For others it may be some inner strength, it may be another person in their lives, or sadly, it may be nothing at all. Pesonally, I don't see how I could live this life without my faith in God. My strength comes from that faith, as it did Stephen, as it does my whole family. There just isn't any other way for me.

Post by **Hellfire** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 4:30 pm

ShadowLurker wrote: It is that fear. That fear that some believe if they question thier belief, their faith, that they will be struck down. Which, of course, turns into the hypocricy of religion. "Do what we want all week, and remember God on Sunday". Some just go through the motions of faith and belief, to appear as Christains, to be percieved as "good followers".

I always wondered, if there is a god, does he really care about something as petty as being worshiped or whether or not we even believe in him?

I went to a funeral recently and it was the first sermon I had heard in over ten years. The preacher quoted stuff from the bible and came up with the conclusion that Jesus was saying- "Fear me and I will be the door way to Heaven!" and he belted it out over the podium. This made me give an involuntary eye roll I had to bow my head just to hide. No thank you!

I know I am a good person and I have faith that IF there is a god, he/she or it would not send good people to a place like hell when they finish living a good life.

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 12:06 am

ShadowLurker wrote:Then there are people like Stephen and Fire. Who live it and breathe it, and show it in everything they do, and leave it with everyone they touch.

This is from Fools Crow: Wisdom and Power, when Fools Crow is asked about secular vs. spiritual life:

"What is secular?" he asked.

"Life in the daily world as opposed to spiritual life."

He stroked his chin before he spoke. "There is natural power and there is spiritual power, but in the old days my people did not separate daily life in the world from spiritual life. Everything was spiritual. We were soaked with it. It is only now that we see a difference. Our attitude was spiritual, and Wakan-Tanka and his Helpers were involved in everything we thought and did. This is the way it has continued to be with me and in the lives of other traditional people."

It's not every day you find a person whose religious belief and faith is infused in every part of their life, but they aren't preachy, or superior. They are happy, and at peace, and they teach just by the way they live their lives. Glorious people!

ShadowLurker wrote:Fire is amazing (I think I'm about to embarass her)

Cool!!

ShadowLurker wrote:I have started emailing her, at first it was just about writing and her story. Now, I find myself bearing my soul to her, and she is so accepting and warm. She talks like Stephen

The force runs strong in that family.

Post by **Furls Fire** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 5:06 am

Post by **Furls Fire** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 2:40 pm

Wow, you know, I recently went to Shadow's profile, found all of his posts, printed them out and put them in a folder. But, I forgot about the posts he had made (in other threads besides Steve's and "The Creed") before he registered. Stumbling across this again stopped my heart. He didn't make many of these, registered or unregistered, (less than 100 actually) but the ones he did make were truly amazing. To think he kept silent for so long here just makes me so sad...

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 2:15 am

Yes, it is sad. But it's wonderful and life-affirming that he found himself and love before it was too late!

(And we all know who to thank for that!

)

Post by **duchess of malfi** » Thu Apr 08, 2004 4:57 am

Shadow found his home.

He found his family.

I honestly think that he would want us to remember him with joy and love -- the same profound joy and love he found near the end of his life.

He was so strong and so brave...a truly remarkable man.

Post by **Furls Fire** » Fri Apr 09, 2004 2:44 am

That he was, Duchy

He told me that I helped restore his faith in God. And I am truly happy that I did that.

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

Lets talk about Faith