Kevin's Watch

I saw Matrix Reloaded yesterday, and a few things (okay, only two) struck me as being quite similar to the First Chronicles. I`ll try to explain.

1. When Neo meets this Architect-guy, they have a loong conversation (have to admit I lost the thread a few times ). The point is that Neo and the Zion and all the people rebelling against the Matrix are a part of the Matrix..they`re existance is possible because of the programming, so to speak. Every now and then, a new Zion is created and a new One (Neo) surfaces. This is helpful to the Matrix, in some way. And you get the impression that no matter what the "free" people (those disconnected from the Matrix) does, they still do the Matrix`s bidding without knowing it. Kinda reminds you of LF and how he makes everyone do what he wants them to, even though they try to fight him.

2. I forgot the second thing. Sorry.

Excellent point about the first. (LOL about the second. ) I've seen the movie three times so far, and I still can't follow the entire conversation with the Architect. But I won't get any more into it, since it would mean more spoilers. Although, in my case, since it is so hard to follow, spoilers would only help, eh?

But yes, that's a good comparison with Foul benefitting from the free choices of Covenant and everybody in the Land. Nice to allow people complete freedom to choose, and yet benefit either way. Not that it's worked out for Foul in the long run. (And I assume the Matrix will fall for good in the third Matrix movie.) But short term, Foul did very well with, for example, the breaking of the Law of Death, which was Elena's choice, even if Foul set up circumstances to some degree.

****SPOILERS ABOUND*****SPOILERS ABOUND*******SPOILERS ABOUND*****



I got that little part too, but what I got from that part of the movie was that many other humans who were considered "the One" had done "battle" with the Matrix and lost. Zion had been destroyed six times before because the Matrix always won.

I think the other part you might be talking about is the end:

Spoiler

At the end, when the ship has been destroyed and they are running from those flying insect machines, Neo turns around and says that something isn't right and he raises his hand and stops the flying insect machines - he has his power OUTSIDE of the Matrix.

That may liken to Covenant not really knowing how to use the white gold but, otherwise, I don't see any connection. Please elaborate .

Hmm..no, I don`t think that was my second point, Caamora, so you`ll have to be the one elaborating on that. IF I can remember it, I`ll run to the nearest computer and post it.

WAIT! I just got it. Okay, here goes:

The Architect says that one of the choices Neo can make, will cause the death of all humans. (All the people in the tanks providing energy for the Matrix, as well as the people of Zion who were going to be destroyed anyway (or so he claims)). That reminds me just a bit of the Ritual of Desecration, where Kevin destroyed the Land (practically) and weakened, but didn`t kill Lord Foul. You see, the Architect says that if Neo makes the choice that will kill all the humans, the Matrix will still live on. "There are ways of survival which can be acceptable to us," he says, or something like that. Gives you the impression that if all the human dies, the Matrix will be weakened, but it won`t be gone completely (and might recover eventually).

Of course, comparing this to the Ritual of Desecration isn`t that good, because the RoD didn`t destroy all that was good, and did leave some hope of recovery for the good guys. If Neo makes the choice that will exterminate the human race, I don`t see how the humans could rise again after that.

I heard my name. What'd I do? You know, that Foul must've taken some lessons in psychology of High Lords to understand their moves so well, and to covertly shove Elena into the decision she made. He was a really smart guy, him. I hope that "SRD" guy (what's that? Some kind of one-word name--like Saki?)

Anyway, hope he writes a Third Chronicles about Thomas Foul . . .

Doubting Thomas Foul?

I thought that what was just as amazing as Foul's ability to shove Elena in that direction - and he must have known exactly what she would do, since he told Covenant in LFB that he would have the power of life and death - was Covenant's ability to piece it together so well before they got to Earthroot.

Ok. I didn't catch the part where the Architect said that ALL humans would be killed. I thought it was just the people of Zion because that is where the Matrix machines were tunneling to (and Neo and Co. had to find the Key guy before the Matrix machines reached Zion). I thought Neo's choice was between Trinity and Zion - I didn't catch all of the humans on earth. In that case, yes it would be like Kevin and the RoD.

That was the elaboration I was looking for.

I'm sorry to do this guys, but comparisons between the Chronicles and the Matrix

Lets see;
The Matrix reloaded = 10 mins. of plot and 2 hours of special effects.
The Chronicles = More plot than you could stuff into a decent sized goose!

And then there's
The Matrix reloaded = Gratuitous attempt to grab mega $ by Hollywood
The Chronicles = One man's attempt to grapple with some real issues.

Of course, they do both use language that you sometimes need a HAL9000 to decode...and they do both grapple with the concept of free will...hmmm...O.K.; maybe i was wrong. I think i'll just shut up now...

On a more general point - Did anyone else think that the Matrix Reloaded was crap? I was sooooo dissapointed (I consider the first one the best film ever made) I agree with Earthblood about Matrix Reloaded being a gratuitous attempt to grab mega bucks by Hollywood and as a film it just didn't work on any level, I do think there's a good film in there but it needed 45 minutes left on the cutting room floor and a complete rework of the dialogue.

I fully agree with you, Prince; the Matrix Reloaded was reeeaallly thin on plot. You don't think they streched it out into a trilogy for grubby financial reasons, do you? Nah, hollywood would never do something like that...

We're really out of TC territory now, but it's not the first time.

I don't have a problem, in principle, with movies being only visually stunning. It is a visual medium, after all. If we weren't very interested in visuals, we'd still be huddled around our radios. So taking the visuals to the ultimate, even if that's all that's done, shouldn't, as a rule, be a bad thing. And I don't think it gets much better than those fights!! Sure, it's better if there's a great story to go along with it. But I don't think that was quite as bad as some people do.

Yeah, the visuals were stunning. I don`t understand why everyone is so disappointed in the sequel..maybe that`s because I never thought the first movie was that great. Oh well.

Earthfriend wrote:I fully agree with you, Prince; the Matrix Reloaded was reeeaallly thin on plot. You don't think they streched it out into a trilogy for grubby financial reasons, do you? Nah, hollywood would never do something like that...

Actually the Wachowski's say they always wanted it to be a trilogy, but instead of doing what LotR did (film all three) they did one film to see how popular it would be then made the other two afterwards.

Dag son of Dag wrote:Yeah, the visuals were stunning. I don`t understand why everyone is so disappointed in the sequel..maybe that`s because I never thought the first movie was that great. Oh well.

*choke cough hack*
Oh man, I was drinking when I read that, and almost died!! You should warn people when you're about to say something like that!!

Dag son of Dag wrote: The Architect says that one of the choices Neo can make, will cause the death of all humans. (All the people in the tanks providing energy for the Matrix, as well as the people of Zion who were going to be destroyed anyway (or so he claims)). That reminds me just a bit of the Ritual of Desecration, where Kevin destroyed the Land (practically) and weakened, but didn`t kill Lord Foul. You see, the Architect says that if Neo makes the choice that will kill all the humans, the Matrix will still live on. "There are ways of survival which can be acceptable to us," he says, or something like that. Gives you the impression that if all the human dies, the Matrix will be weakened, but it won`t be gone completely (and might recover eventually).

The fact is that we cannot take anything that the Architect says as true, we have to have something to measure it against. He might be just another line of defense against the one, or he might be just what he says he is but still he might be lying.

It is interesting to see how the architect in a way works like Lord Foul in that he wants Neo to destroy the Matrix. Not because he is trapped in it, but because he wants to keep everyone else trapped in it. Apparently the whole Matrix plot is a kind of big reboot sequence for the Matrix.

But something seems to have survived from earlier versions of the matrix. Notably the more powerful programs seem to be of that kind, like the Merovingian and his hench-programs, as well as the oracle and the architect. They may have been different, but they are also much the same. The Merovingian makes at least one reference to Neo's predecessors.

The other thing we learn or could learn is that the "reality" of the outside world is also fake. I.e. it is similar to the matrix but it is another system. This would take care of most of the strange facts about this reality as well as being the most obvious way of making this kind of system if you were a matrix machine. But if this is the case we would have to assume that most of the things that we have learned so far about the people of Zion and their relationship to the matrix is false and we would have to scrap the idea that humans are used as generators for the machines as well. So what is left??

We need to remember that the matrix and the AI are separate ideas. The AI realized that humans are a good source of energy for them. If humans agreed to be wired up, and let the AI suck our energy, there would be no need for a matrix. But humans wouldn't go for that. So the AI created the matrix. The humans now think that they're living their lives, but their physical bodies are still, so the cables don't rip out.

If all humans died, then there would be no more bio-electric energy for the AI. But that's just the best energy source they have found so far. (Best meaning most energy for the amount of work needed to acquire and maintain it.) They apparently have others, and would be able to survive the loss of humans. Hence, "There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept."

I feel that there is something inherently wrong with the entire idea about this bio-energy thing. If you look at some of the things that is going on in the matrix you get the feeling that there is an unlimited amount of energy available to the machines. But if they were dependent on the energy output of humans they would need incredible amounts of it, and they would still need to feed them. So where are the food processing plants?

This was what I meant when I said that if the reality of Zion was a matrix as well, then the things that did not make sense there not need to make sense.

My favorite theory at the moment is that there is something that the machines need that the humans are capable of producing, but that this is not energy. I think the 'battery' thing is just a convenient fiction created to explain the matrix to the "free" people. One possibility, which I like, is that the matrix itself and all the programs in it is run not in giant computers but in the minds of those that are linked to it. Thus the matrix entities would become parasites in the humans minds, but they could not possibly get rid of the humans because that would be like destroying their own planet.

It's just impossible to figure this out. After Revolutions, we'll know, I assume, if the "real" world is, indeed, real. And then maybe we can try to come up with good explanations.

So far, though, if Zion and the real world are actually part of the matrix, I don't see that all that much energy is needed. Running computer programs certainly takes energy, but is the amount of energy needed greater than that produced by billions of human bodies?

Regarding feeding the humans plugged into the matrix, the first movie showed that, when one dies, the body is liquified, and the nutrients are feed by IV.

Your theory could certainly be it. Therefore, if all humans died, the programs that do not exist outside the matrix would also die. Of course, the AI that are NOT matrix programs would still live. After all, they lived before the matrix was created, during the war with humans, and I assume others of that kind are being created occasionally.

Originally posted by caamora:
I got that little part too, but what I got from that part of the movie was that many other humans who were considered "the One" had done "battle" with the Matrix and lost. Zion had been destroyed six times before because the Matrix always won.

I don't think you've got that quite right. I thought the architect told him that all of the previous The Ones (heh) had surrendered to the Matrix and chosen twenty-three people to go with them to start the new Zion (or go back into the Matrix, I can't remember which. I got the impression that Neo was the first The One to try and beat the Matrix.

[rant]
On the issue of humans-as-batteries, that has never sat comfortably with me. I simply don't forsee a way in which you can convert body heat into electricity. Body temperature is between 36-37 degrees typically, and no amount of 'units' putting out that level of heat would be able to make an energy-transfer medium (usually it'd be water or an inert gas, but who knows what the machines use) any hotter than 36-37 degrees. Plus there's the issue of just how monstrously inefficient we humans are in terms of the energy we can't obtain from our food.

A far more sensible way for them to get power without the sun would be geo-thermal, using the heat of the core. Come to think about it, what's stopping them burning fossil fuels, the atmosphere's screwed anyway? Then there's good old nuclear fission, unless those advanced artificially intelligent machines have been able to crack the secret of nuclear fusion.

[/rant]

Of course, the human energy source is many times more efficient when the bodies themselves aren't moving and using that energy for that...
Also, it is not just the heat - it uses the bioeletricity and other things... I'll try and find you a transcript of Second Renaissance: Pt 2 so I can get the details.