Kevin's Watch

Mhoram

Was he not the most intuitive and far seeing of the new lords - to me he ranks with Kevin and Damelon, if not better

Personally, I don't rate or rank lords or characters from top to bottom, better or worse, but individually. Meh.

But that being said, ya, Mhoram's awesome. And he's able to find a new way for himself without rending the Land, and finally finds vindication at the end of TPTP. If I really did have to pick a favorite character from The Land...Mhoram would be 1st (well, for the 1st chronicles anyway).

He's not my favourite character, but he certainly is one of the coolest people from the Land, and certainly a very powerful Lord.

I dunno. If Prothal were younger when Covenant arrived I think he could have equalled Mhoram. He is the only Lord that I think this of, although Tamarantha and Hyrim come close.

variol son wrote:I dunno. If Prothal were younger when Covenant arrived I think he could have equalled Mhoram. He is the only Lord that I think this of, although Tamarantha and Hyrim come close.

I don't think so... the Lords were all noble figures, but Prothall and all the others were far too bound to the Oath of Peace to realize Mhoram's breakthrough. Sure, in the face of great danger and loss, the Lords gave their utmost; but even then, they kept the Oath of Peace, and tried not to let their passions flow too wildly. Mhoram was the only one who saw that power comes from passion, and that sets him apart from all the others, I think. That, and the fact that he, more than anyone else, understood Covenant's importance and tried to help him transition from confused, angry traveler to savior of the Land. I for one hope that we may see a last bit of Mhoram in TLC... after all, his specter appeared in the SC, so there's precedent.

I have to agree with Xar on this one; there is no question Prothall and Dwillian and other Lords were as devoted to the Land as Mhoram, but what made Mhoram great was his ability to see and then act on his convictions.

It must have been very hard for Mhoram to turn away frpm a thousand years of the Oath, facing death agains SatansFist for his new conviction. No other new lord came close to the sacrifice and courage of Mhoram.

That's because no other lord had the opportunity he had, nor the friendship with Covenant that caused him to question the way things had been done until then.

Had they had the benefit of those things, I believe that some of the other lords could have been almost as great as Mhoram. Not all, certainly. Lords such as Osondrea and Amatin weren't built in such a way.

Hyrim, however, certainly questioned the status quo. Hell, he questioned the Bloodguard and defied the High Lord in asking Covenant to accompany him to Seareach. He also faced a Giant-Raver, striving against the slayer of the Giants themselves, and he also knew the despair of not being sufficient to the task. Even more so, since he wasn't adept at battle like Mhoram.

variol son wrote: I for one hope that we may see a last bit of Mhoram in TLC... after all, his specter appeared in the SC, so there's precedent.

I personally hope that with the Law of Time broken, we actually GET Mhoram to appear somehow. I think thay Mhoram is on par with the greatest of the Lords as well. His ability as seer led him to the undeniable conclusion that the Law of Peace in and of itself led to despair. To have the conviction to follow up on such a terrible epiphany show unequalled wisdom. Kevin would have been luck to have Mhoram's insight!

variol son wrote:Hyrim, however, certainly questioned the status quo. Hell, he questioned the Bloodguard and defied the High Lord in asking Covenant to accompany him to Seareach. He also faced a Giant-Raver, striving against the slayer of the Giants themselves, and he also knew the despair of not being sufficient to the task. Even more so, since he wasn't adept at battle like Mhoram.

Absolutely. Hyrim's fight in the Sarangrave and against Kinslaughterer are two of the most moving passages in the First Chrons, right up there with Bannor's explaination of the breaking of the Vow.

Cail wrote:

variol son wrote:Hyrim, however, certainly questioned the status quo. Hell, he questioned the Bloodguard and defied the High Lord in asking Covenant to accompany him to Seareach. He also faced a Giant-Raver, striving against the slayer of the Giants themselves, and he also knew the despair of not being sufficient to the task. Even more so, since he wasn't adept at battle like Mhoram.

Absolutely. Hyrim's fight in the Sarangrave and against Kinslaughterer are two of the most moving passages in the First Chrons, right up there with Bannor's explaination of the breaking of the Vow.

Hyrim was brave and mighty, but clearly was no Mhoram.

Mhoram was the right person in the right place and the right time. There are several people who have the ability, but not the oppurtunity to use it. Or at least that's the way I have always seen it.

Absolutely Buckarama. Have Mhoram switch places with Hyrim and I have no doubt that both men would have risen to the respective challenges.

It's easy to say Hyrim was no Mhoram because Hyrim wasn't the major character that Mhoram was. We didn't know him as well.

Perhaps. Hyrim, at least as much as we saw of him, did not demonstrate the serenity and depth that wisdom provided Mhoram. He was valiant in the face of a great trial, though.

A Gunslinger wrote:Perhaps. Hyrim, at least as much as we saw of him, did not demonstrate the serenity and depth that wisdom provided Mhoram. He was valiant in the face of a great trial, though.

Agreed!

I sometimes wonder at Mhoram's achievements after TC defeated Lord Foul...it is conceivable that he may have become at least as mighty as Kevin. He understood profoundly the limitations of the Oath of Peace and, unlike Kevin, had refused to give in to despair when all had seemed lost.

Knowing the secret of the Ritual of Desecration as he did, and having proved himself capable of resisting its temptation in the face of despair, why then didn't he go on and unlock all the other wards of Kevin's Lore? He must have been more than capable. And he would have no need to fear the burden of Kevin's knowledge and power, having already triumphed over despair and the Grey Slayer. Did he perhaps give the Wards a wide berth because he did not trust his colleagues' and successors' ability to cope as he had? Or perhaps because in principle, he still believed in the Oath of Peace (esp. in Foul's absence)? Surely as a seer he must have had some inkling about Foul's return? Perhaps even the Sunbane...I wonder.

Of course, he may even have gone right ahead and created his own lore. Certainly, the Council is said to have worked wonders in the 2,000 years before the birth of the Clave. (Although apparently much of this was made easier because the Law of death had been broken). Either way, I think it's safe to assume that for the duration of his High Lordship, Mhoram would have to have been right up there with the Old Lords in terms of power and wisdom.

I would LOVE it if we got a bit more information on his later life sometime in the Last Chronicles!

Doesnt Mhoram say that his new Council shall creat New Lore that can work in conjunction with the Oath of Peace?

Also Mhoram lost his visions of the future when he learned the secret of the Ritual of Desecration.

So he wouldnt see Foul of the Sunbane in his dreams.

Was there a thread about Fan fiction? I thought some one had pulled the time period for their fan fic. When Mhorma was High Lord after the defeat of Satanfist. Anyway you're right that finding more information would be really cool. Some one ought to make sure this requests gets to SRD and he can make us Fanboys feel needed.

kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=29

The Last Quest of Lord Mhoram by amanibhavam.

A Gunslinger wrote:Perhaps. Hyrim, at least as much as we saw of him, did not demonstrate the serenity and depth that wisdom provided Mhoram. He was valiant in the face of a great trial, though.

Ahh Lord Hyrim. My favorite Lord besides Mhoram; quick wit and humble and valiantly persevering at the end and at such a cost; a heartbreaking story.

I wrote:

have to agree with Xar on this one; there is no question Prothall and Dwillian and other Lords were as devoted to the Land as Mhoram, but what made Mhoram great was his ability to see and then act on his convictions.

It must have been very hard for Mhoram to turn away frpm a thousand years of the Oath, facing death agains SatansFist for his new conviction. No other new lord came close to the sacrifice and courage of Mhoram.

Variol Son wrote:

That's because no other lord had the opportunity he had, nor the friendship with Covenant that caused him to question the way things had been done until then.

Had they had the benefit of those things, I believe that some of the other lords could have been almost as great as Mhoram. Not all, certainly. Lords such as Osondrea and Amatin weren't built in such a way.

I just can't see it that way. Mhoram wasn't great because of his friendship of Covenant; Mhoram had insight into the RoD because of the sculpture Elena made of Bannor/Covenant. Yes, he knew them well enough to see the paradox of their conflciting natures, but Prothall had the same chance, was in similar circumstances; He also knew Covenant, was High Lord, knew the bloodguard, etc. he just didn't see the fault with the Oath of Peace or what was coming. I dont think anyone else could have.

I do not think any lord would have been interchangeable with Mhoram. He acted as he did because he was Mhoram. I loved Hyrim, and he had his place and did his duty for the Land, but he was a different person than Mhoram and would likely have chosen another path. I am not saying the other Lords were less in battle, less in bravery, or love for the Land, but, true to SRD's style, only the knowledge that the Oath was holding them back would allow the defeat of SatansFist. And only Mhoram was bright enough to see it, brave enough to act. IMHO, of course.