Kevin's Watch

Is why exactly Ciro went through with what he did despite the fact that he was cured. I mean I know he apparently was driven insane but I mean that's not enough of an answer if you ask me.

Opinions?

I dunno. I found it all acceptable. There are certain events that can cause a person to be removed from a given reality. And they differ for each person. The threat of the contaigen being in his system (even if it was removed), sent poor Ciro down a bit of insanity that he never fully recovered from.

He never really accepted that he was cured though, did he? He probably wasn't capable of accepting it.

Insanity isn't random, it's just skewed reason.

Ciro's decision was one of the points in the Gap where, although SRD went to great lengths to put across the character's motivation, I was never fully convinced by it.

Spoiler

The other point was Angus decision to head back to UMCHO with Warden, rather than high-tailing it out of there with Trumpet

It made me wonder if SRD was perhaps under some time pressure from the publisher, as I can't imagine a writer as meticulous as he is being happy with what look a bit like plot devices.

Gads! NO! I don't agree at all!
I think the whole Angus situation was thought out and executed extremely well. That is one of the things I liked about Angus' character (and for me there was not much), that he was not a 2-D guy... there was a lot going on in his head and most of his 'redemption attempts' come from his 'emotional link' with Morn. She changes everyone she comes in contact with, and Angus is no exception.
I think that part worked very well.

i agree, Usivius. and considering SRD's concept (the victim/villan thing) i think everything Angus does makes sense. i DID, however, wonder at Ciro. he just didn't seem all that crazy to me.

Good. Insanity is often subtle.

As for Angus, I wasn't entirely convinced either. In fact, I was unconvinced by the whole ending. I, too, wondered if SRD found himself in a position where he needed to wrap it up quickly.

I thought the majority of Angus' motivations were well thought out, the warped sense of responsibility he exhibited towards Morn was particularly convincing. His decision to go to UMCHO, though, I felt was pretty much altruistic, which didn't fit in with his character at all for me. As it turned out, he was handsomely rewarded with Holt's ship, but he couldn't have known that would happen when he chose to go with Warden.

Nav wrote:I thought the majority of Angus' motivations were well thought out, the warped sense of responsibility he exhibited towards Morn was particularly convincing. His decision to go to UMCHO, though, I felt was pretty much altruistic, which didn't fit in with his character at all for me. As it turned out, he was handsomely rewarded with Holt's ship, but he couldn't have known that would happen when he chose to go with Warden.

its been a while since i read it but...i guess i just thought Angus wanted to get Holt, which fit for me.

Angus blamed Warden and Hashi for his predicament. Though Holt was ultimately behind it, I don't think he'd hold enough animosity towards Holt to go chasing after him at Warden's suggestion. Holt was, to Angus, an abstract; a name.

CovenantJr wrote:Angus blamed Warden and Hashi for his predicament. Though Holt was ultimately behind it, I don't think he'd hold enough animosity towards Holt to go chasing after him at Warden's suggestion. Holt was, to Angus, an abstract; a name.

yes but i think Warden made quite the impression on Angus and once he realized what Warden meant to do (get Holt)...oh...it's stupid for me to try and discuss this when it's been too long since i read it. all i'm saying is that it made sense to ME. okay? it made sense at the time i was reading it. now, granted, i AM a stupid American, but...Angus' actions made sense to me.

No they didn't, you just don't realise it yet.

CovenantJr wrote:Angus blamed Warden and Hashi for his predicament. Though Holt was ultimately behind it, I don't think he'd hold enough animosity towards Holt to go chasing after him at Warden's suggestion. Holt was, to Angus, an abstract; a name.

But Warden had already proven himself to be on Angus' side when he unlocked the datacore restrictions, showing that he had really meant that "it's got to stop".
I think Angus' torment as a welded cyborg gave him something that he genuinely wanted to get revenge for, and he knew that Warden wanted that too.

I'm sure he would've felt a strong desire for revenge, I just think it would've been outweighed by his powerful instinct for self-preservation. Angus at that point is fully aware of how powerful he's become, but raiding HO was still quite a dangerous undertaking.

all points are valid, but as we are the sum of our experiences (ok, debated...) Angus in book 4 and 5 is not the same guy he was in books 1 - 3.
The whole experience with Warden ("It's got to stop") and his slowly being changed by Morn (in more subtle, and at the same time, more powerful ways) ... he WAS a man who would go out of his way in that manner. Heck, he knew he was suddenly UBER powerful all welded and such. That, if nothing else, has to make a man think that maybe he can get away with a little more ... so riding out Wardens ideas, coupled with wanting so dessperately to help Morn, made Angus do those (confusing?) things he did.

I understand that, I just don't think it's enough.

Ciro didn't have the fortitude or temperament to simply shrug something like that off. He was basically the perfect pigeon.

Frankly, if he had gotten over it, I wouldn't have bought it. SRD doesn't waste a setup that dramatic by letting it diffuse.

Ciro was pretty much a little kid...he had always relied on his sister's protection and direction...when he was injected with the mutagen or whatever...like Donaldson said elsewhere...the fact that your very humanity was pretty much destroyed and you were becoming a wholly different species/animal...messes with your head...it was just too much for him...he couldnt believe anything anybody told him..he was already a gonner...nothing like that could possibly be cured...if there WAS a solution, it could only come from the person that had enough power to do this to him in the first place...Sorus...and since she wasnt about to give him a cure, then the only thing he could do to make amends for sabotaging the ship was to basically sacrifice himself...



and as far as Angus goes...everything about him was believable...even the end where he went with Warden...he didnt just blame Hashi and Warden...Holt was the whole reason the world was the way it was...he was the man responsible for pretty much everything...all the orders came from Holt...Hashi and Warden were just pawns...and in Angus' eyes, at least Warden had some regret to what he had done to Angus...something nobody had ever shown to him before...he may not have liked Warden any more than before, but at least he respected him a little...so he went with him...it was a chance to srike at the heart of the corruption of the UMCP...the very founder of the UMCP itself...the 'root of all evil"...


or something to that effect...

I thought he went suicidal because after the time limit was over and he realised that he was cured, even though he didn't believe he was cured when vector told him he was, he realised how weak and endangering he had been. Then I dont know, he thought he was so worthless that life wasn't worth living, and he wanted to make restitution?