Runes, Part 1, Chapter 6 - The Despiser's Guidance

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Runes, Part 1, Chapter 6 - The Despiser's Guidance

Post by dlbpharmd »

This dissection contains many quotes, because I felt that it was important to include the conversation b/w Linden and Foul verbatim.

Seeing an opportunity for escape, Linden grabs Anele by the arm and runs from Mithil Stonedown. She is uncertain in which direction to head, but decides to make for the river. She hopes to elude the Haruchai by either following the river or floating along it as she had done with Covenant once before. But, she is wounded, and lacks the strength to run:
For ten years, she had done little to sustain the physical toughness that she had developed on her travels with Thomas Covenant.
Why would she? That toughness was developed in the Land, not in the “real world.”

With Earthpower to aid him, Anele runs ahead of Linden –
She thought she heard him cackle as he ran, overflowing with mad glee.
Breaking onto open ground near the river, Linden collapses from her injuries and exhaustion, and hears Anele walking towards her. He speaks – but it’s not his voice that Linden hears.
“Pathetic.”
Lord Foul.

This is the third time that Linden has heard his voice; in Kiril Threndor, she was not worthy of his attention:
“To you I do not speak.” – WGW
And in the dream sequence during her recent summons to the Land, she heard him again:
“Tell her I have her son.”
But was he referring to Linden, or to Joan? Perhaps both?

But now there can be no mistake; Lord Foul is addressing her personally….and he calls her pathetic. Nice.
“Entirely abject. You disappoint me, Linden Avery. I would delight to see you grovel thus, but I have not yet earned your prostration. If you had not released this failing cripple, my servants the Haruchai would have aided you. They would have fostered your false hopes. Now they will hunt you down and imprison you. This displeases me.”
Servants? The Haruchai? 8O

Furious, Linden finds her voice and shouts back:
“Damn it, Foul! Leave him alone. If you need a victim, try me. Take your chances.”
Echoes of Thomas Covenant, in TWL:
“You can’t be stupid enough to try this again.”
Foul:
“And if I do not? If I elect rather to mock you with this cripple’s torment? What then? Insipid woman! Will you scour the life from these displaced bones for my amusement?”
Displaced bones……hmmmmmmm.

Linden wants to call up wild magic, but cannot. Kevin’s Dirt blinds her, but something else also:
But she was not Covenant. His power did not belong to her.
Since when?

But Linden doesn’t back down:
“Are you having fun, asshole? Enjoy it while you can. Sooner or later, I’m going to recover my health-sense. And when I do, you will leave Anele alone. That I guarantee. If you don’t, I’ll be able to get at you. I’ll tear you out of him with my bare hands.”
Foul is not daunted:
“Do you believe so? That would please me. I would find satisfaction in such a contest. And this mad vessel, that clings so stubbornly to continuance when he should have perished ages ago – ah, he would be quite destroyed.”
Should have perished ages ago – just how old is Anele?

At last Linden backs down, and with bitterness in her voice, says:
“Then what is all this for? Does mocking us please you so much that you just can’t resist? Hell, you can’t escape unless you destroy the whole Earth. Don’t you have anything better to do?”
Foul:
“At this moment? Indeed I do. You must be restored, lest you prove unable to serve me. I mean to assist you. Come, woman. Accept our guidance. We will show you hurtloam.”

Somewhere she had heard of hurtloam, but she could not remember what it was, or who had mentioned it.
This is one of the proposed breaks in continuity that SRD has mentioned in the GI. To my knowledge, the only mention of hurtloam to Linden was when Covenant asked Nassic for hurtloam in TWL. Personally, I don’t think it’s a stretch of logic to imagine that Linden, in pain and exhausted, cannot remember what hurtloam is at that particular moment. But I digress.

Linden isn’t moving, and Anele/Foul beckons:
“You require healing. Without it, these self-maimed Masters will ensnare you blithely, and this time you will not win free. They will hold you helpless until I am forced to foil them on your behalf. Without hurtloam, also, you will not regain the discernment which renders you able to serve me. Come, I say. I find little sport in your wretchedness. Be assured that this abject old man does not wish harm upon you.”
Self-maimed Masters…we all know that SRD does not choose his words carelessly. Self-maimed brings back memories of another time when Haruchai were maimed, when Foul conquered Korik, Sill and Doar and maimed them to resemble Thomas Covenant. That maiming led to the end of the Bloodguard. But how have the Haruchai maimed themselves?
Spoiler
This seems like more than just a reference to the Humbled.
Another point – we see that without the health-sense, Linden is worthless to Foul, which calls to memory another time that Linden’s power made her vulnerable to evil. Gibbon told her, in TWL:
"You have been especially chosen for this desecration. You are being forged as iron is forged to achieve the ruin of the Earth. (emphasis mine) You have been chosen, Linden Avery, because you can see. Because you are open to that which no other in the Land can discern, you are open to be forged. Through eyes and ears and touch, you are made to be what the Despiser requires. Descrying destruction, you will be driven to commit all destruction.”
Ruin of the Earth……Runes of the Earth…..hmmmmmm

But Linden does not trust Foul:
“And you think I’ll do what you tell me why? Because I’ve lost my mind? I’m suddenly stupid? Shit, Foul, you’ve had things your own way too long. You’re getting complacent.”
Foul:
“Blind fool! Do you doubt the Haruchai will give chase? Do you conceive that they will now offer you friendship and aid?”
Linden:
“Of course not. But I know you, Foul. I know better than to believe anything you say.”
Foul:
“Paugh! (well said ;) - dlb) You have never known wisdom or discernment sufficient to comprehend my desingns. Your defiance serves no purpose. It merely feeds my contempt. You disdain me at your peril.”
Linden changes tactics, probing for information:
“So convince me. Give me a reason to listen to you .”
Foul:
“I have said that the Haruchai serve me, albeit unwittingly. That is sooth. Also it is sooth that they will imprison you. Whether you partake in them or no, my designs will be fulfilled. Forces have been set in motion which will shatter the Arch of Time, putting an end to the Earth, and to all that I abhor. If you are imprisoned, however, certain aspects of what will ensue remain clouded to my sight. On that path, I cannot determine that my Enemy will not again find means to snare me. But if you remain free, apt and able to satisfy me, my release is assured. Your attempts to oppose me will secure it. The Arch will be torn asunder, and I will reclaim my rightful place among the eternal Heavens. My Enemy will be unable to thwart me. There is more, but of my deeper purpose I will not speak. (emphiasis mine) It must therefore be plain that I do not desire your capture. And it must surely be plain as well that you will not fail to evade the Haruchai if you are not restored to your fullest strength. You require hurtloam. The Haruchai have ensured that no lore remains which might aid you. Only Earthpower will suffice.”
Deeper purpose? 8O

Linden continues to probe:
“Stop it. Don’t be so damn cryptic. It’s petty. And you’re wasting time. Just tell me what you’ve done.”
Foul:
“Done? I? Naught. Apart from the claiming of your vacant son, I have merely whispered a word of counsel here and there, and awaited events. The ceasures are none of mine. Also I had no hand in your blindness, for I did not utter the fine riposte of Kevin’s Dirt. If you fear what has been done, think on the Elohim and feel despair. They serve me as do the Haruchai, unwittingly, and in arrogance.”
Foul denies responsibility of the ceasures - how did Joan begin to make the ceasures in the first place, without his influence? Also, the mention of Elohim immediately after Foul denies responsibility for Kevin's Dirt makes me think that the Elohim are responsible for the Dirt.

Definition of riposte:
1. a quick, sharp return in speech or action; counterstroke: a brilliant riposte to an insult.
2. Fencing. a quick thrust given after parrying a lunge.

A strange choice of words.....

Linden:
“And you expect me to believe you? You didn’t send that storm?”
Foul:
“Shame upon you, woman. Shame and excruciation! You undervalue my enmity. That pitiable assault serves me well enough, but it is too crude, far too crude. I would not deign to raise my hand for such an unsubtle ploy.”
Shame and excruciation....again, a strange choice of words. I wonder if SRD meant excoriation?

Again, Linden remains still, but she knows that in this point, Foul is telling the truth, because he loves to take credit for his actions.

Anele runs toward the Mithil, while Foul continues:
“Refuse me and be damned! That you will be captured is certain! Then you will be helpless while your son remains in my hands!”
At last, knowing that she cannot outrun the Haruchai, and reminded of her son, Linden moves to the river bank, and somehow finds within herself the ability to mock Foul:
“What now, Foul? Do you tell fortunes by staring into riverbeds?”
Foul gives this prophetic and cryptic response:
“More than you know, fool. Men commonly find their fates graven within the rock, but yours is written in water.”
Why water?

Foul indicates a section of the river:
“There, as I promised. Hurtloam.”
Linden doesn’t move.
“There! Are you mad as well? It is hurtloam, I tell you.”
Without her health-sense and with no understanding of the value of this gift, Linden stares blankly at the water.

Foul:
“There! This doddering cripple is rife with Earthpower, which I loathe. In this he cannot be mistaken.”
Finally, Linden scoops up a handful of sand, and within moments, the effects of hurtloam become apparent, as she experiences the healing of the Land and rejuvenation of her health-sense. As her healing becomes complete, she looks at Anele, who is lying on his back in the grass, his hands covering his face. Linden again sees his need for his own healing, and ignoring his terrified objections, places hurtloam on his forehead. Immediately, all traces of the Despiser disappear, and Anele begins to convulse. She realizes that a being full of Earthpower cannot contain more, and she struggles with him to remove the hurtloam from his forehead. In the struggle, Anele flings himself into the Mithil River. As Linden prepares herself to dive in after him, a rope is cast by Liand, who has followed them to the River, and he pulls Anele to safety. Anele stands, and Foul begins to laugh.
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Post by Avatar »

Excellent chapter, and excellent dissection Dlb. Some interesting clues to Anele there that I never noticed before.

Something else I never noticed before was Foul's use of the plural: "Our" guidance "We" will show you.

Does he mean he and Anele? Or is this a sly reference to something else...
Spoiler
like the multiple possessors? Like he and TC?
Also agree that the maimed reference is wider than it might appear at first glance...what have the Haruchai as a whole done to themselves...

--A
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Re: Runes, Part 1, Chapter 6 - The Despiser's Guidance

Post by Relayer »

Great dissection dlb!! And to borrow a phrase from Wayfriend, I love "chatty Foul" -- I get the feeling we're going to get a lot more of that as the series continues.
“If you are imprisoned, however, certain aspects of what will ensue remain clouded to my sight. On that path, I cannot determine that my Enemy will not again find means to snare me. But if you remain free, apt and able to satisfy me, my release is assured. Your attempts to oppose me will secure it. The Arch will be torn asunder, and I will reclaim my rightful place among the eternal Heavens. My Enemy will be unable to thwart me. There is more, but of my deeper purpose I will not speak.
Deeper purpose? 8O
Indeed!! What deeper purpose could Foul have than escaping the prison of the Land? Taking revenge on his Enemy, becoming ruler of the Universe? Playing Texas Hold-em with Sherriff Lytton? SRD raises the stakes again with this comment, which again reminds me of how the Gap series kept doing this as we got further into the various characters and machinations. It has to be something that threatens even the "real world" or raises the stakes so that it's not as easy as Linden simply choosing between Jeremiah or the Land.
“Done? I? Naught. Apart from the claiming of your vacant son, I have merely whispered a word of counsel here and there, and awaited events. The ceasures are none of mine. Also I had no hand in your blindness, for I did not utter the fine riposte of Kevin’s Dirt. If you fear what has been done, think on the Elohim and feel despair. They serve me as do the Haruchai, unwittingly, and in arrogance.”
Foul denies responsibility of the ceasures - how did Joan begin to make the ceasures in the first place, without his influence? Also, the mention of Elohim immediately after Foul denies responsibility for Kevin's Dirt makes me think that the Elohim are responsible for the Dirt.
The way Foul says this, it almost seems like he's implying that both were done by the Elohim. Maybe they've split into 2 camps... those who are like Chant and those who are like Dauphin. Remember, in the cosmology of the Land, the Elohim are the trapped children of the Creator... perhaps this group also desires freedom. Maybe they created the caesures (via Joan) to weaken the Arch and somehow the Dirt is like a protection or resistance created by the other group. If so, I wonder which group the wandering Elohim is from?
“More than you know, fool. Men commonly find their fates graven within the rock, but yours is written in water.”
Why water?
I don't know why this makes me think of "permanence at rest, permanence in motion" -- her fate can be read in the constancy of motion or change?? Or maybe it's something more mundane, like she's gonna drown (I'm sure THOOLAH will appreciate that :)

Note to SRD: in the year 2013, please enter a caesure and bring the entire finished Chonicles back to October 2006. Thank you. :twisted:
"History is a myth men have agreed upon." - Napoleon

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Post by dlbpharmd »

Avatar wrote:Excellent chapter, and excellent dissection Dlb. Some interesting clues to Anele there that I never noticed before.

Something else I never noticed before was Foul's use of the plural: "Our" guidance "We" will show you.

Does he mean he and Anele? Or is this a sly reference to something else...
Spoiler
like the multiple possessors? Like he and TC?
Also agree that the maimed reference is wider than it might appear at first glance...what have the Haruchai as a whole done to themselves...

--A
I assumed that the use of the plural was Foul/Anele - but now you've got me wondering.
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Post by Avatar »

:D You started it. ;)

Interesting point by Relayer too...how exactly have the elohim been serving Foul, even unwittingly...?

Can't wait to find out.

--A
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Post by dlbpharmd »

I get the impression that Foul is not that powerful this time. It's like he's just an influence, only directing certain forces, not actually causing any direct threats. In the 1st Chronicles, he was actually weaker than Drool when Drool had the Staff, but after he came into possession of the Illearth Stone, only then did he become powerful. In the 2nd Chronicles, he used Earthpower to restore himself and then the Sunbane to empower himself. What power might exist now to make him strong?

Also, it seems to me that that this time, Foul is more human in nature. I can't tell if it's the change in SRD's writing style, or if it's my personal bias based on the information that SRD has revealed about Foul over the years.
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Post by wayfriend »

Woo woo!

I love this chapter! I'm jealous, DLB!

Woo woo!

Yes, I call him chatty Foul. And he's one of the best parts of Runes. Why? Because I want to get into his dank, black head!
He speaks – but it’s not his voice that Linden hears.
“Pathetic.”

Lord Foul.
Please allow me to introduce myself:
I'm a man of wealth and taste.


Woo woo! :D

I've been around for a long, long year
Stole many a man's soul and faith.

“Are you having fun, asshole? Enjoy it while you can."
Ah, chatting with Foul!

- - - - - - - - - - -
And in the dream sequence during her recent summons to the Land, she heard him again
Speaking of which ... did you notice right when the chapter opens? There are two lines called out in italics.
  • Something they don't expect.

    Dreams are a snare.
What's the significance? Add one item: Covenant told Linden to do something they don't expect in a dream. Ah. Click. Uh oh.

Then she says, If the despiser had appeared before her here and now ... and, lo, he does. Prophesy?

Runes seems rife with this sort of textual ... irony? I don't know what to call it. But the text is overladen everywhere with alternate meanings, double entendres.
Servants? The Haruchai? 8O
Unwilling ones. When Foul later says, "I have merely whispered a word of counsel here and there", it becomes clear that the Masters are a candidate for his whispering, steering them along a course which they do not know serves Foul.

Did Foul give the Haruchai the idea that all Earthpower served Corruption?!?!

I shouted out, "Who killed the Kennedys?"
When after all It was you and me.

Linden wants to call up wild magic, but cannot. Kevin’s Dirt blinds her, but something else also:
But she was not Covenant. His power did not belong to her.
Indeed. So far my theory is holding: one of the obstacles to her use of wild magic is her thinking that the ring does not belong to her.
Without hurtloam, also, you will not regain the discernment which renders you able to serve me.
Yes, Foul, you maneuver Linden through her percipience, we know.
Self-maimed Masters…we all know that SRD does not choose his words carelessly.
I agree that there is something more here in this statement. And I don't think it only refers to ... things we find out later. I think that all the Haruchai have... limited themselves somehow. Perhaps, in giving up serving people, they've given up something essential.
But if you remain free, apt and able to satisfy me, my release is assured. Your attempts to oppose me will secure it. The Arch will be torn asunder, and I will reclaim my rightful place among the eternal Heavens.
There's something interesting revealed right here. Linden is essential to Foul's plans. And her being free to act, to follow her own choices, is also essential to Foul's plans. Persuing her son is essential to Foul's plans - as we've seen in the "I am content" chapter earlier. If you're looking for evidence that Linden is dangerous to the Land, you need to look no further. But if you think about how entering snares lets you master them, then there is yet hope.

And I laid traps for troubadours
Who get killed before they reach Bombay.


But Foul never says he will be the one to shatter the Arch. He just says, the plan is unfolding, and it'll happen. Uh oh.
There is more, but of my deeper purpose I will not speak.

But what's puzzling you is the nature of my game.

Woo woo!
If you fear what has been done, think on the Elohim and feel despair.
Uh oh.

The Elohim did something. I don't think we necessarily know what they did yet.
Definition of riposte: ... A strange choice of words.....
As I said once before, "riposte" means it is a response to something. It [edit](Kevin's Dirt)[/edit] is a defensive response to something I feel, which unfortunately plays into Foul's hands.
“Shame upon you, woman. Shame and excruciation! You undervalue my enmity. That pitiable assault serves me well enough, but it is too crude, far too crude. I would not deign to raise my hand for such an unsubtle ploy.”
I rode a tank, held a general's rank
When the blitzkrieg raged and the bodies stank.

“Refuse me and be damned! That you will be captured is certain! Then you will be helpless while your son remains in my hands!”
At last, knowing that she cannot outrun the Haruchai, and reminded of her son, Linden moves to the river bank
Yes, Foul moves Linden with the threat to her son. Jeremiah is the lure, and Linden is the fish he plays.

But there's the double meaning to the chapter title. "The Despiser's Guidance" is not just leading Linden to hurtloam. It is Foul all along leading Linden along.
Foul gives this prophetic and cryptic response:
“More than you know, fool. Men commonly find their fates graven within the rock, but yours is written in water.”
Oh, that's not too cryptic. When your fate is graven in rock, it is fixed, immutable. When it is written in water, it changes from instant to instant, it's always in flux. Foul is saying that Linden remains with choices. I think he slipped up a bit when he said that.

(But I did think of Stone and Sea, too.)

[edit]On Keat's grave is written "Here Lies One Whose Name Was Written in Water."[/edit]
“There! This doddering cripple is rife with Earthpower, which I loathe. In this he cannot be mistaken.”
More significance! More clues! Anele's Earthpower lets him see the hurtloam. Where the people of the Land can't. Anele is immune to Kevin's Dirt. Somehow, despite being blind, he is not blinded. Now, I have to wonder, you have to wonder, if his blindness is self-inflicted, maybe it was self-inflicted for a reason, a reason having to do with Kevin's Dirt, to be immune from Kevin's Dirt? 8O

So if you meet me have some courtesy,
Have some sympathy, and some taste.
Use all your well-learned politesse,
or I'll lay your soul to waste.

Woo woo!


- - - - - - - - - -
Avatar wrote:Does he mean he and Anele?
Yes. Later he says, Be assured that this abject old man does not wish harm upon you. Whether it is in playfulness or in truth, Foul speaks as if Anele is with him.
Relayer wrote:Remember, in the cosmology of the Land, the Elohim are the trapped children of the Creator... perhaps this group also desires freedom.
No, in the GI Donaldson says that the Elohim would be destroyed with the Earth.
In the Gradual Interview wrote:(btw, "immortal" for LF and "immortal" for the Elohim are two entirely different concepts. The Elohim are immortal *within the Arch of Time*. If time no longer exists, they won't either. LF doesn't have that problem.)

(04/12/2006)
dlbpharmd wrote:I get the impression that Foul is not that powerful this time. It's like he's just an influence, only directing certain forces, not actually causing any direct threats.
Yes, but I fear it is not because he is weaker, but because things are unraveling now of their own accord. This time, Foul is like a man caught in a landslide - all his maneuvering is to get to a place where he can survive the inevitable collapse. He needs the ring ... and the correct relationship with the ring ... and he needs to get it before the Earth comes apart.
dlbpharmd wrote:Also, it seems to me that that this time, Foul is more human in nature. I can't tell if it's the change in SRD's writing style, or if it's my personal bias based on the information that SRD has revealed about Foul over the years.
There is a Locus interview where SRD states that this chronicle is going to delve into Foul's story. That's why I am so excited about chatty Foul ... this is how we get that story.

[edit]
In Locus Magazine 2004 was wrote:Returning now to epic fantasy is complicated by the fact that my readers have a right to expect me to deal in archetypes. But because my priorities have shifted, in ‘The Last Chronicles' I will probably spend more time than any reader has ever expected on the motivation of the bad guy. When I wrote Lord Foul's Bane, Lord Foul the Despiser was explicitly archetypal, a sort of undying and unmotivated force for darkness. But now I believe that he too has reasons for what he does, and, more than ever before, I care about what those reasons might be. For example, I’m aware now, as I was not 20 years ago, that what this being feels is despair. He wants to hurt so many other people because he needs an outlet for his pain. He has a story, and he deserves dignity.
[/edit]

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Waythings:

:?: Foul says of the Masters to Linden, "They would have fostered your false hopes". So, Foul was perfectly fine with Linden being with the Masters at first. But he got ticked off that the Masters would imprison her. Again, this speaks of Linden's freedom being necessary for Foul. But what are these "false hopes" that the Masters would "foster"???
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Post by Avatar »

Great post WayFriend.
dlbpharmd wrote:Also, it seems to me that that this time, Foul is more human in nature. I can't tell if it's the change in SRD's writing style, or if it's my personal bias based on the information that SRD has revealed about Foul over the years.
Yeah, a combination of everything I think. He already seems more 3-dimensional.
"WayFriend"]And her being free to act, to follow her own choices, is also essential to Foul's plans. Persuing her son is essential to Foul's plans - as we've seen in the "I am content" chapter earlier. If you're looking for evidence that Linden is dangerous to the Land, you need to look no further. But if you think about how entering snares lets you master them, then there is yet hope.
I agree with most of that. The only problem with your bit of hope is that in order to do so, first you must know that they are snares.

I fear she is blinded by her search for Jeremiah.

--A
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Post by Zarathustra »

This is one of my least favorite chapters. I don't really like Chatty Foul. I know Foul is supposed to be developed in this LC, and the "chats" are SRD's means for doing so, but for now he's still a generic asshole who chortles and uses words like "sooth."

Linden says, "Stop it. Don't be so damn cryptic. It's petty. And you're wasting time."

That's EXACTLY how I feel reading Foul's "spooky" dialogue. Wasting time. Being cryptic. And being petty. At least Donaldson realizes this potential downside, and addresses it directly through having Linden point it out herself as a criticism.

I did find this one tidbit interesting:

"Whenever the Despiser taunted her through Anele, he connected her, however tenuously, to her son. If she could see, she might be able to reach Jeremiah--In fact, Anele might be the only link she would ever have."

That's quite a chain of connection! Linden-Anele-Foul-Jeremiah. It's almost as if SRD recognizes that her promise to Anele, and her general good-natured desire to help others wasn't quite enough to justify hauling this crazy blind guy along on her journey. No, everything must connect back to her son. Pretty clever.

The healing scene was some of the best writing in this book so far. It was certainly the most magical. I love: ". . . the savor of the new season filled the air with possibilities." This is how I feel at the onset of every autumn, when the first cool breeze of the season softens the summer heat. It stirs deep memories within me of growing up in the woods, the tough reassurance of flannel shirts, the distant buzz of a chainsaw, and the smell of woodsmoke. Those moments of transition when the whole world shifts into a new focus, an anticipation for what's to come.

Back to Linden: Her transformation takes ten paragraphs! Again, Donaldson is taking his time in this book more so than any previous one of the Chronicles--even in a circumstance where urgency and speed is required. Honestly, I love it. It really heightens the tension. I don't know how he pulls it off
Spoiler
and he's nowhere near being done; there's an entire chapter following this one before they actually start running again.
This seems like necessary info for the reader:
"The incoherence of Anele's mind allowed Lord Foul entrance; permitted the Despiser to speak. yet the Land's foe had not caused that madness."
So, we know that Anele is necessary as a plot device because Foul can't just speak through anyone (or indeed, simply enter Linden's mind). But we also know that there's more going on with Anele's madness than simple possession . . . clever little info dump.
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Post by Relayer »

I love it when Linden calls him "asshole." It's SO out of place in a fantasy novel, when talking to the archetype of all evil, who speaks with all these pompous words -- that just cracked me up.

And WF, nice use of the Stones in there :)
Malik23 wrote:The healing scene was some of the best writing in this book so far. It was certainly the most magical. I love: ". . . the savor of the new season filled the air with possibilities." This is how I feel at the onset of every autumn, when the first cool breeze of the season softens the summer heat. It stirs deep memories within me of growing up in the woods, the tough reassurance of flannel shirts, the distant buzz of a chainsaw, and the smell of woodsmoke. Those moments of transition when the whole world shifts into a new focus, an anticipation for what's to come.

Back to Linden: Her transformation takes ten paragraphs! Again, Donaldson is taking his time in this book more so than any previous one of the Chronicles--even in a circumstance where urgency and speed is required. Honestly, I love it. It really heightens the tension. I don't know how he pulls it off
I agree, I love that scene. And I love your description, too. It reminded me that even growing up in Southern Cal, we'd have those days where fall is coming. I love the first brisk windy day when you turn the heat on and pull out a sweatshirt. Of course, it also means... SKIING is coming!!!

I felt that not only is SRD taking his time, but the transformation paragraphs were also for us, the readers. It's been a LONG time (most of 4 books and up to 20+ years) since we've experienced the Land in it's glory and this lets us re-experience the true beauty of the Land like we haven't since TIW (except for a few moments with Mhoram in TPTP or through Linden's eyes in Andelain at the end of WGW). SRD wants us to remember the Land as it truly was before. And it might even be for himself, too... it's been a long time since he's written about such beauty.
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Post by SoulBiter »

I did not utter the fine riposte of Kevin’s Dirt. If you fear what has been done, think on the Elohim and feel despair.
Wow.. Foul claims the dirt is a reposte. Of what? What did the Elohim do that would have caused the 'dirt' in a response? Did they change something about the earthpower that caused this?
Spoiler
Could they have done so if the Staff of Law was still around?

As far as her not being able to remember Hurtloam.. She does say(think) that she thinks she heard Covenant mention it... but she cant remember when exactly or what it was about. I also agree that its not a large stretch for her not to remember every detail.. it has been years for her since she has been in the land.
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Post by Zarathustra »

Wow.. Foul claims the dirt is a reposte. Of what?
Good question. Who is it directed to? The people of the Land. So is it a response to something the people of the Land did? Is it Earthpower protecting itself from the people? That doesn't seem likely.

Yet, the appearance of the Elohim which Liand remembers seems to contradict the idea that the Elohim are responsible for it. Maybe it was done by the "bad" faction of Elohim, but if that's the case, then the "good" faction should do something about it, something more than making an appearance to scold the Haruchai.

I think we can rule the Haruchai out, too. While it serves their purposes, Stave made it clear they weren't responsible (didn't he?).

Could it correspond to Joan going into her catatonic state? Could it be an effect of Covenant's ghost? If so, in what sense do they utter ripostes? Covenant already did what he set out to do in the 2nd Chrons. So the only person left with a need to utter a riposte would be Joan. Maybe its a mirror effect of her protective mechanism, her slipping into senselessness. The time frame seems about right.
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Post by wayfriend »

I did not utter the fine riposte of Kevin’s Dirt. If you fear what has been done, think on the Elohim and feel despair.
No, this quote doesn't directly claim the Elohim are behind Kevin's Dirt, but it may be that it is a subtle hint that they are.

As I suggested earlier, I think that the Dirt is a defensive response to something. It hangs over the Land, so it could have been generated by the Earth (as the Sunbane was), but I don't think it is, in this case, a corruption. Foul considers it a "fine riposte" because something happened in the past which triggered the Dirt to appear, and it has played into his hands. Probably something one of his enemies did.

This is all just speculation based on that phrase "fine riposte".

I am afraid that we probably cannot know what Kevin's Dirt is a riposte of until we see what it is hiding. We haven't really been out and about in the Land yet.

It's far, far older than 100 years. So we can rule out anything linked to Joan.

Wild Idea: Has someone been playing with the Power of Command?
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If you fear what has been done, think on the Elohim and feel despair.
True.. this statement doesnt say they caused it or had anything to do with it... however it does lead to the possiblily that the Elohim had something to do with it, albeit indirectly. But is this a misdirection by Foul?

We all know that Foul is all about misdirection. But he normally likes to have some truth wrapped in what he says, even if his perception of the truth is a bit warped. Im wondering if what he refers to is when the Elohim tried to warn the Land about this and were ignored. I dont know.. Im just throwing some thoughts out there. If I had my book with me I would go back to that chapter and see if I see any missed clues.

If you had not released this failing cripple, my servants the Haruchai would have aided you. They would have fostered your false hopes. Now they will hunt you down and imprison you. This displeases me.”
In this quote Foul shows that he cant see all ends. Thus Linden needs to do unexpected things. And Foul admits in this sentence that she has done something he didnt expect. He figured she would go along with the Haruchai for a bit longer and perhaps take another path. Since she did this, he has to get involved to try to put things back on the course he set.....
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Post by dlbpharmd »

True.. this statement doesnt say they caused it or had anything to do with it... however it does lead to the possiblily that the Elohim had something to do with it, albeit indirectly. But is this a misdirection by Foul?
Foul actually says "feel despair" when referring to the alleged actions of the Elohim. Whatever they have done, Foul implies that it is of far graver consequence that Kevin's Dirt.

In LFB, Foul gave to Covenant a very specific prophecy of doom...."Say to the Council of Lords," etc. In TWL, he again was specific in the final outcome. Here, with Linden, he is extremely vague. Of course he says the ultimately he will be victorious (he wouldn't be Foul if he didn't) but he speaks in very abstract terms.
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Post by Zarathustra »

Wayfriend wrote: It's far, far older than 100 years. So we can rule out anything linked to Joan.
Why can't it be linked to Joan? I didn't say it was linked to the white gold. Stave himself said that it was an effect of earthpower. If the Land is a place that is "inextricably tied to the minds of the characters," as Donaldson has said, then why can't Joan's mind retreating into her own personal "fog" of senselessness be correlated to Kevin's Dirt? Like I said, that timeline for this fits. She fell into this state at about the same time the Dirt appeared, didn't she?

I think it is a mistake to suppose that Joan, or Linden, or Covenant can only affect the Land via the white gold. Covenant "saved" the Land and absorbed Foul's attacks without having possession of it.
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Post by wayfriend »

Wayfriend wrote:
dlbpharmd wrote:I get the impression that Foul is not that powerful this time. It's like he's just an influence, only directing certain forces, not actually causing any direct threats.
Yes, but I fear it is not because he is weaker, but because things are unraveling now of their own accord. This time, Foul is like a man caught in a landslide - all his maneuvering is to get to a place where he can survive the inevitable collapse. He needs the ring ... and the correct relationship with the ring ... and he needs to get it before the Earth comes apart.
To this effect, in the GI today I found:
In the Gradual Interview was wrote:Meanwhile, the distinction between "corrupt" and "broken" or damaged seems more appropriate to Brew's version of reality than to the Land's. Lord Foul went down the "corrupting the system" road in "The Second Chronicles," and failed. "Broken" is a better description of what's happening in "The Last Chronicles".

(10/11/2006)
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Post by Zarathustra »

Wasn't Joan broken? She certainly fit the bill for ". . . give him back something broken." But then, I thought this phrase applied to the Land under the Sunbane, too.

Anyway, if Joan is broken now, and the Land is broken now, it seems like at least tenuous evidence of my little theory about Kevin's Dirt. But maybe I'm wrong. I just thought it might fit with ideas like coming down with leprosy corresponds to the RoD, etc. But Donaldson stated that wasn't his intension, so this could be a dead end (unless he was impressed by that correspondance and chose to extend it to Joan as well.) At the very least, it's a thematic correspondance, one that is also shared with Jerimiah . . .

It seems too coincidental to me that a) multiple characters were struck down with a form of catatonic senselessness following the bonfire in the 2nd Chronicles, and that b) this has been described as a defensive mechanism, and c) Kevin's Dirt shows up as a potential "Land protecting itself" (or its people?) from an unknown horror by robbing them of persipience, and d) this fits perfectly with the Masters' attempts to "protect" the Land and its people. You can throw Anele's blindness in there, too; it was something that happened to him in response to his endured hardships.

Such a complex convergence of thematic similarity is obviously not accidental.
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Post by wayfriend »

While there does seem to be a run on blindness-type problems in Runes, SRD has commented once before that such things are recurring metaphors but do not indicate a symbolic correlation. Just for reference:
In the Gradual Interview wrote:Petar Belic: [...] I have a simple question: where comes this fascination for physical blindness - or a lack of eyesight - you have in your story-telling? Nom. Waynhim. Hile Troy. There are probably more references, of which I am too lazy to research. However, there does seem to be a pattern here...
  • I find it somewhat embarrassing to admit that until Anele came along I didn't actually realize that eyelessness or blindness formed such a recurring (one might almost say incessant) theme in the "Covenant" books. And yet the pattern continues, as you'll discover (if you haven't already) in "The Last Chronicles." Well, I like to think that my sub-conscious has a very good reason for insisting on this particular metaphor. Certainly one of the main subjects of the "Covenant" books is how perception creates reality. For one example, the Land becomes effectively real for Covenant when he "sees" that it is important to him. And for another, the ur-viles and Waynhim stand outside the governing forms of Law in part because they literally *don't* "see". Conversely, Hile Troy doesn't "see" the danger implicit in his attitude toward power: his inability/failure to perceive accurately threatens the survival of the Land. And so on.

    (03/16/2005)
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Post by Relayer »

SRD just answered this one in the GI:
"What now, Foul? Do you tell fortunes by staring into riverbeds?"

Foul gives this prophetic and cryptic response:
"More than you know, fool. Men commonly find their fates graven within the rock, but yours is written in water."

Why water?
In the GI was wrote:Sure, Lord Foul was helping Linden--for his own oblique purposes (if she's, well, let's call it "restricted" by the Masters, she won't be of any obvious use to him). But his paraphrase of Keats is intended as a put-down. "Your actions are too trivial, too ephemeral, to have any lasting meaning."
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