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Welcome to the club of the self-aware

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 6:48 am
by Prebe
Nature, Amanda Leigh Haag wrote: Who's that? Elephants can recognize it's not a stranger in the mirror.

Elephants possess the highly cerebral ability to recognize their own jumbo reflections in mirrors, scientists have found.
Traditionally, only an elite group of animals including humans, chimpanzees and orangutans have been proved to be capable of self-recognition in a mirror. A lone study several years ago also reported that dolphins could recognize their own gaze in a glass1.

Researchers have suspected that elephants might possess the capacity for self-recognition and self-awareness because of their highly developed social behaviour. A study reported this week in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Science documents the evidence for three clever elephants2.

"All three showed self-directed behavior in front of the mirror, and thus we were convinced that all three recognized that the mirror image was themselves," says Joshua Plotnik, a doctoral student from Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia, and the lead author on the paper.

Mirror, mirror on the wall
To study the elephants' behavior, the researchers placed an "elephant-proof, jumbo-sized" mirror, 2.5 metres high by 2.5 metres wide, inside the enclosure of three female Asian elephants (Elephas maximus) at the Bronx Zoo in New York City. The team used a still camera on a roof to observe the animals over a period of five months.

Upon entering the yard, all three elephants ran to inspect the mirror. The elephants, named Happy, Maxine and Patty, immediately investigated the surface by sniffing and touching it with their trunks — even attempting to climb the mirror to look behind it and kneeling down to look under it.

They didn't display threatening behaviour such as trumpeting, which might have been expected if they saw the images as intruder elephants.

Later, the animals used the mirrors to inspect their own bodies — peering inside their mouths, for example. At one point, Maxine used her trunk to pull her ear close to the mirror for inspection.

Me, me, me



When a white mark was placed on Happy's face, she knew to investigate herself rather than her reflection.


The concept of mirror self-recognition (MSR) is defined by animal behaviour specialists by four stages: making a social response to a reflection; examining the mirror itself; repetitive behaviour around the mirror; and self-directed behaviour.

The elephants' behaviour showed all four stages, although only Happy passed a definitive test of the fourth phase, called the 'mark test'. A white cross was surreptitiously placed on Happy's face without her noticing. When she then looked in the mirror, her response was to touch the mark on her own face, rather than reaching out to inspect the mark in the reflection.

Such behaviour is considered to be a fundamental part of the development of a sense of self and a theory of mind. Human babies do not recognize a mirror reflection as being themselves, but typically learn this by the age of two.

Self-recognition is also strongly linked to empathy; it is thought that an animal needs to be able to understand itself in this way before it can empathize with others. Children too need to develop this skill over time.

Plotnik and colleagues think that few other animals will be found to possess the capacity for full self-recognition. If more are discovered, Plotnik says, it will probably be in a highly intelligent mammal, such as the killer whale.
I hope that Loremaster is against the culling of elephant populations as well ;)

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 9:43 pm
by Zarathustra
This is really cool. Back in college, I learned in a social pych class that when gorillas had their faces marked and then shown a mirror, they would touch their own faces exactly where the mark was--implying that they understood they were looking at their own face. I'm excited about this for several reasons:

I'm awestruck how simple self-awareness is to demonstrate. Across genetic lines, we can intuit, even prove self-awareness empirically.

The idea that self-awareness is a stage of consciousness reached by any sufficiently advanced life form goes a long way toward proving that our level of awareness is possible for alien life. We're talking about empirical evidence that humans are not the only self-aware beings.
Not science fiction. Science fact.


Evidence of "lower" levels of self-consciousness, "proto" self-consciousness, confirms the idea that there is a scale or spectrum of self-consciousness . . . implying that there are "higher" levels as well.

Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:39 pm
by Chuchichastli
whoops, sorry! :oops:
Evidence of "lower" levels of self-consciousness, "proto" self-consciousness, confirms the idea that there is a scale or spectrum of self-consciousness . . . implying that there are "higher" levels as well.
Gaea, perhaps? Or maybe even the whole of Creation...? :)

Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 6:00 pm
by danlo
Good point Giant! 8) (ever read Tobias' Voice of the Planet?)

Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 6:03 pm
by Chuchichastli
...I haven't! But the title sounds attractive to me. Please feel free to expand... :D

Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 6:14 pm
by danlo
"Disillusioned with his work and tormented by mysterious messages, ecologist William Hope Planter travels to a Buddhist monastery at the base of Everest intending to reevaluate his life, but he is soon drawn into the world of Gaia, the spirit of Earth itself." He eventually unearths a computer that talks to him through the spirit of Gaia---it's really a beautiful and enlightening book written in the '80s--and, don't laugh, they made it into a miniseries starring William Shatner in '91. 8)

Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 6:24 pm
by Chuchichastli
On the contrary, sounds rather interesting! Thankyou! And about computers - if self-awareness is indeed a spectrum, who's to say they're not already on it - and shifting frequency fast! 8O :)

Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 6:38 pm
by danlo
My new one would recognize itself in a heartbeat. The piece of crap I had for the last six years didn't know it's ass from it's elbow! :haha:

Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 2:32 am
by Zarathustra
Damn, that book sounds interesting.

What do people think of an actual gaia existing? How far can consciousness grow? While I don't think the earth has any consciousness itself, I think such a level of consciousness is at least possible. (If the earth had a consciousness, then why allow us to upset the balance so much? Does great consciousness only come with powerlessness? Or is what we're doing really not so bad in terms of the Earth's intensions?)

I think that if there are aliens out there, many must be millions of years ahead of us--our sun is a second-order sun, after all. Formed from the dust clouds of previously exhausted stars. So these aliens might have a much more higly evolved consciousness; more unified.

I think our own human society is creating a unified consciousness similar to what Asimov foresaw in "The Last Question." We are united in ways and speeds unimaginable a century ago. Our thoughts and feelings are traded instantly in a myriad directions in milliseconds. This is only the first stage of our consciousness-uniting technology. If there is going to be anything like Gaia in our future, it will be from us coaxing it from the earth. We will seed the environment with nanobots, embuing nature with intelligence. And we will connect our minds to this truly global net. Ubiquitous consciousness. It's coming just as surely as ubiquitous computers.

Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 2:43 am
by Loredoctor
Malik23 wrote:Damn, that book sounds interesting.

What do people think of an actual gaia existing? How far can consciousness grow? While I don't think the earth has any consciousness itself, I think such a level of consciousness is at least possible. (If the earth had a consciousness, then why allow us to upset the balance so much? Does great consciousness only come with powerlessness? Or is what we're doing really not so bad in terms of the Earth's intensions?)

I think that if there are aliens out there, many must be millions of years ahead of us--our sun is a second-order sun, after all. Formed from the dust clouds of previously exhausted stars. So these aliens might have a much more higly evolved consciousness; more unified.

I think our own human society is creating a unified consciousness similar to what Asimov foresaw in "The Last Question." We are united in ways and speeds unimaginable a century ago. Our thoughts and feelings are traded instantly in a myriad directions in milliseconds. This is only the first stage of our consciousness-uniting technology. If there is going to be anything like Gaia in our future, it will be from us coaxing it from the earth. We will seed the environment with nanobots, embuing nature with intelligence. And we will connect our minds to this truly global net. Ubiquitous consciousness. It's coming just as surely as ubiquitous computers.
Excellent post, Malik.

Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 3:01 am
by Zarathustra
Thanks! Happy Friday night to, ya. I'm very happy, after some Victory's Hop Wallop and herb. I think that's why I'm making posts like the above!

Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 3:34 am
by Loredoctor
Malik23 wrote:Thanks! Happy Friday night to, ya. I'm very happy, after some Victory's Hop Wallop and herb. I think that's why I'm making posts like the above!
:lol: Keep it up! :D

Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:49 am
by danlo
wonderful Malik! It's a very enjoyable read...glad uncle tohacle is treating you right! :wink:

Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 8:51 am
by Damelon
Malik23 wrote:I think that if there are aliens out there, many must be millions of years ahead of us--our sun is a second-order sun, after all.
Interesting speculation, Malik. Our sun may be of the second order, but our sun is very stable. How many others are so?

Life has been around for what now, 500 million years? Life elsewhere may have started and flared out - literally within that length of time. Or it may have gone on elsewhere for a billion years and never produced intelligent life. Or elsewhere intelligent life may have evolved within 100 million years. Who knows? I'm not so sure about a gaia life force. But also again, who knows? It may be possible.

I'll more on this tomorrow, after the Captain and diet wears off. :)

Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 10:05 am
by Chuchichastli
Malik23 wrote:
If the earth had a consciousness, then why allow us to upset the balance so much?
If the Earth does have a consciousness, I shouldn't think it would have response times even remotely in any framework we might appreciate. Homo Sapiens Sapiens has been in existence for about 100,000 years (so it's reckoned) and the Earth for 4,600,000,000 or so. Compress that amount of time into a human lifespan, say 100 years, and your modern man has been around for a relative 1/500th of one year, perhaps 18 hours or so! And civilization for less than 10% of that! And industry for only 200 years, or 1/500th of the existence of modern man. Put that into the equation and of we consider the Earth as a woman who lives 100 years, we've only been seriously polluting her for about 120 seconds. She's barely caught the germ. :) (But what a germ! Wham!!) Even if whatever mechanisms she might have to counter the upsetting of the balance that we have so suddenly caused are mobilizing themselves as we speak, the observations we can make in one or even several human lifetimes are unlikely to be enough to get a realistic impression of what's going on.

Suppose that once these countermeasures are under-way, the Earth may be able to shake us off like a bout of 24-hr flu. Over a period of 120,000 years or so! :lol:

On the other hand - perhaps we're just too toxic to handle...