Kevin's Watch

Why does Linden need the Staff? If she were here to save the Land, sure, the Staff makes sense. But Linden has made it abundantly clear that she cares more about saving Jeremiah than saving the Land. She even says to herself that she'd rather save Jeremiah even if it means the Land will be destroyed. So how does she think the Staff will help her regain her son? What's the plan? She doesn't even raise the question; she just blindly follows a hint in a dream.

And why does everyone (Liand, Ramen, ur-viles, etc.) help her achieve her goal? She keeps telling them "Foul has my son." She never says, "I'm here to save the Land." Yet, they all act like she's here to save the Land. They all convienently forget she's only interested in her son, even though she keeps repeating it. If they're on board with the whole "let's save Jeremiah" thing, then why don't they say so?

On page 324, Liand says, "Your intent is not to destroy the Earth, but to redeem it, as you seek also to redeem your son." She never said her intent was to redeem it!! In fact, this ISN'T her intent. And yet, when Liand gives this justification for staying with her (at her request--she just asked him why he's staying with her), she doesn't bat an eye. She doesn't tell him: wait a minute, if that's why you're staying with me, you need to rethink your reasons. She takes the time to inform him of the risk because she doesn't want to take advantage of him, but then she lets him follow her even though his reasons are based upon a misconception?

Yet, how is this misconception even possible in the first place? How can Liand's reasons be based on a misconception when she's been telling them all along what her goal is? It's almost as if Donaldson himself keeps forgetting that she's not here to save the Land, as if he's so used to writing about saving the Land, that he can't help himself. Sure, Ramen and ur-viles might go along with her simply because they have faith that Linden will do the right thing in the end--similar to how everyone in the 1st Chronicles had faith in Covenant even though he said he had no intention of saving the Land. But at least this issue was addressed in the text. At least the discrepancy was made part of the story. In this book, Donaldson just sweeps it under the rug, and has a character like Liand proclaim his faith even though he has no history or culture out of which such faith could arise. His people haven't been harboring a prophesy of Linden returning to save the Land. He just automatically trusts that this is what she'll do, even though she explicitly says she's here for a different reason.

Does this bother anyone else?

Linden goes after the Staff of Law 1) because she has no idea where to begin looking for Jeremiah, 2) because Covenant suggested it to her and she trusts him, 3) because she thinks that having the power of the Staff of Law at her command will make everything easier for her, including successfully rescuing Jeremiah.

I think Linden does care about saving the Land. It's currently priority 2 to her, but she would like to do that if it doesn't hinder rescuing Jeremiah.

I think Liand attaches himself to her because she has won his admiration and love and it was really boring back at Mithil Stonedown anyway. The Ramen are impressed by how the Ranyhyn bowed to Linden, and Linden has also saved the life of one of their own. Combined with memories of the other Ringthane, the Ramen have slotted Linden as a great hero. And as for the ur-viles, I don't think they really serve Linden. I think it just suited their grand purpose to cooperate for a while, because they have also been interested in the Staff of Law but been unable to get it on their own.

Nerdanel, I'm not saying that you can't come up with rationalizations for the characters' actions (Ranyhyn bowing to Linden, Liand wanting to see the world, etc.). It's more a criticism of Donaldson's writing than your abilities of inference. Donaldson doesn't make this discrepancy an issue. He doesn't let the characters wonder about it like he does in the 1st chronicles. He lets Liand say things like "you're here to redeem the Land," even when she never said that.

As for your justifications, 1) she had no idea where to look for the Staff, either, so how is her ignorance about where to look for Jeremiah a cause? That merely multiplies her ignorance, not resolve it. 2)Yes, TC told her to get the Staff, but we never see her wondering how it will help. Sure, she trusts him, but this trust is never invoked to overcome a very obvious uncertainty. Has the Staff ever been used to find hidden stuff? If it were useful in this way, then the Lords could have found every one of Kevin's Wards. Besides, she has the white gold. Why isn't this enough? Okay, she doesn't know how to use it. But she doesn't know how to use the Staff to find her son, either. 3) "because she thinks that having the power of the Staff of Law at her command will make everything easier for her, including successfully rescuing Jeremiah." Where does she say this? What portion of the text justifies this interpretation? Sure, it's plausible. But Donaldson never mentions it. All I'm saying is that things like this are vital character motivation details that are completely absent from the text.

Also, where does she say that saving the Land is priority #2? She says just the opposite: that she'll save her son even at the cost of the Land. She only has one priority. And Donaldson makes sure to repeat it dozens of times. He never once says she'll save the Land. Yet, he allows characters to act like she will.

Good points, Malik. Those are all things that bothered me as well when I was reading Runes. The whole Staff of Law thing just bothered me, for many of the reasons you mentioned.

He lets Liand say things like "you're here to redeem the Land," even when she never said that.

Not only that, but how does Liand even know that the Land needs to be redeemed? He doesn't know that Lord Foul exists. He doesn't know anything about the Land's past. He doesn't know about health sense, so Kevin's Dirt doesn't bother him (can't lose something you never had). The Caesures are strange and making things crazy, but I wouldn't call them an huge, terrible problem (from Liand's POV). The Land is simply boring. Not in trouble. So does he think the Land needs to be redeemed simply from boredom?

(I probably missed something that makes everything I said wrong, so just let me know if I did.)-jay

(I probably missed something that makes everything I said wrong, so just let me know if I did.)-jay

Well, not wrong, really. Just premature. The line I quoted came after Liand already knew about the various dangers. It was at the Verge of Wandering, after she's already asked him why he's coming along once. Now she feels like she needs to do it again. If she's so uncertain about his resolve, how on earth does his answer satisfy her this time? His answer isn't relevant to her goal!

So you're right in principle, but not in the details.

Linden DOES have an idea where to look for the Staff. She knows it was last seen in Anele's cave some three thousand years ago. So she figures that if she time-travels to Anele's cave shortly after he was taken by a caesure, she can just pick up the Staff without changing the history because the Staff had been missing the whole time. Only. the reason that nobody would have been able to find the Staff would have been because Linden had taken it, which is a nasty little paradox, particularly when you consider the free will component. Linden didn't foresee that the Waynhim had taken the Staff, but luckily the ur-viles had tacked along...

By the way, if Linden had instead chosen to seek the Staff in the present, it is well possible that she would have been able to find it. Namely, by the present the Waynhim would likely have all been dead, and the illusion on the cave mouth in the strangely lush valley faded through lack of maintenance. (The ur-viles and Anele by himself would just have been too early and searched while the illusion was still in effect, plus they wouldn't have known about the Waynhim.)

I didn't mean that the Staff would be that much help in finding Jeremiah, although the ability to get rid of Kevin's Dirt would have helped, but instead getting him, because Linden figures that more power = better for survival, and besides white gold hasn't been that dependable to her as of late, with Esmer's nullification field and all. It's not like Linden thinks Lord Foul is just going to hand Jeremiah away intact, particularly as Foul has made some highly unpleasant promises about the subject.

I think Liand wants the Land to be redeemed to be like it used to be, with no nasty Kevin's Dirt floating around preventing everyone from seeing the true beauty of the Land (like Liand did when he once climbed Kevin's Watch in secret and later in the Southron Range) and people being free from the Masters and doing wonderful things with Earthpower like in Linden's stories. And by the way, Liand knows that Lord Foul exists because Linden told him right when they first met. The caesures sometimes cause famines in Mithil Stonedown, in addition to snatching up people and animals, so I guess Liand figures they and the kresh are pretty significant.

If Linden is thinking that she'll save her son at the cost of the Land, that doesn't mean that she has only one priority. Rather, I think she would like to save both, but if she is forced to choose, she'll choose Jeremiah. That's what second priority means. Honestly, I don't get where there are "opposites" here.

Another reason she wanted the staff was she felt more natural wielding it.. Even though she knew how to use the White Gold, she always felt the ring was Covenant's, and she preferred the staff.

Malik23 wrote:Why does Linden need the Staff? If she were here to save the Land, sure, the Staff makes sense. But Linden has made it abundantly clear that she cares more about saving Jeremiah than saving the Land. She even says to herself that she'd rather save Jeremiah even if it means the Land will be destroyed. So how does she think the Staff will help her regain her son? What's the plan? She doesn't even raise the question; she just blindly follows a hint in a dream.

Knowing that Covenant loves her, and that he chose to save the life of an unknown girl over the Land, I'd say Linden trusts that he is thinking of Jeremiah's best interests. Of course, it can be assumed that he has the Land's best interests in mind, also. And, being who he is, and what he is, he can likely see a way to save both. At least Linden, who doesn't know the names of the other books in the Last Chrons, might assume he can.

All the above-mentioned reasons are valid, but I'll also throw in another one: when thinking about how Kevin's Dirt could have formed with the Staff of Law still intact, Linden concluded that probably the Staff didn't work properly at that time (perhaps because there was no one to wield it. So she assumed that recovering the Staff and wielding it might provide the basis for dispelling Kevin's Dirt, which in turn would help her by leading all the people of the Land to see its loveliness again, which in turn would have them perhaps rebel to the Masters, but also give them a compelling reason to help her to save Jeremiah. Now, obviously this reasoning is fallacious; she doesn't think (or perhaps doesn't want to think) that the reason why the Staff might not have prevented Kevin's Dirt was because she herself had removed it from the past, thereby causing millennia of time in which there was no Staff of Law to prevent Kevin's Dirt's appearance, for example. And she doesn't think (or, again, doesn't want to think) that the Masters might not sit idly by while the people of the Land rediscover Earthpower. And even if they did, the people of the Land could not help her so much anyway; most likely they would be easily crushed by Foul. But I think that throughout Runes, Linden's every action is fundamentally selfish: she's willing to do anything, and to sacrifice anything, in order to get Jeremiah back, even if this means having the people of the Land destroyed or causing a rebellion against the Haruchai. Granted, this selfishness is born of love for Jeremiah, but one has to wonder at the irony, since Linden poured so much love into Jeremiah also (partly) because of Covenant, and now she's willing to let the Land that Covenant loved be destroyed for Jeremiah's sake.

Even when Liand tells her that his reason to be with her is because she will "redeem the Land", the fact is that he is idealistic and he believes this because of the way she spoke of the Land of the past, and because she "saved" him from Mithil Stonedown, and showed her power as well. When Linden doesn't even blink or rebuke Liand's explanation, I have the feeling she's not confused, but rather she allows him to think that because she needs him.

I think Runes makes a good job of demonstrating that Linden's "spiritual journey" is not yet complete; she may be less affected by the dark side of her nature, but she still is capable of dark acts, if need be. Compare Linden's thoughts and feelings to how Covenant rejected killing back in LFB, or any other occasion throughout the Second Chronicles. Covenant, in this respect, is still far ahead of her on the path of the lessons the Land has to offer; perhaps this is because of a blessing she didn't have - his being exposed to the wisdom, humbleness, power, and dedication of the Lords of the Land.

It makes me wonder what Linden might have been if she had seen the Lords of Prothall's, Elena's and Mhoram's time, and their selfless dedication, their acts of sacrifice, their absolute refusal to condemn Covenant even for his most despicable acts, believing in his ultimate capability to save the besieged Land. The Lords of that time, differently from the Old Lords, whose power was much vaster, had a more "vulnerable", "human" quality that made their trust and wisdom all the more poignant. Perhaps, if Linden had met them rather than the Sunbane upon her first visit to the Land, she might have changed more significantly.

Then again, who can say how far Covenant progressed (or didn't) through the lessons the Land has to offer? I wonder whether Linden will find Covenant to be much wiser than she remembers, or not...

These are all good ideas. But if you look at it from an over-arching, three-chronicles point of view, some interesting things emerge.

Let me paint an impressionistic picture by thowing some GI at everyone.

In the Gradual Interview was wrote:Now, of course (I mean after "The Second Chronicles") *all* of Kevin's lore has effectively ceased to exist. (Linden's new Staff of Law doesn't even have *runes,* for crying out loud.) And without that lore to give it substance, the seventh word--if anyone chanced to discover it--would be meaningless.
(06/01/2004)

In the Gradual Interview was wrote:3) As the creator of the new Staff of Law, Linden definitely has an inherent relationship with it; so she would certainly be able to use it.
(10/15/2004)

In the Gradual Interview was wrote:
Now. The Staff of Law was created as a means to wield the energy of Earthpower safely--i.e. without violating the various constraints of Law. But because this is magic rather than technology (because it deals in symbolic unities rather than in discrete mechanisms), the Staff cannot be inherently separate from the forces and rules which it exerts. It's not a light switch, essentially distinct from the flow of electricity which it enables. In a certain sense, the Staff *is* both Law and Earthpower, just as white gold *is* wild magic. In fantasy, in magic, the tool cannot be distinguished from what the tool does.

So. Even though the Staff was never essential to the original existence of either Law or Earthpower, the simple fact of its creation means that it participates in both, and can therefore: a) strengthen both, or b) weaken both (by being destroyed). So yes, the destruction of the original Staff weakened the structure of Law.

But. This is does *not* imply that Linden's creation of a new Staff *automatically* restores the structure of Law to its original form. A tool has to be used to be effective; and the person using the tool has to know what he/she is doing. Linden, and then Sunder and Hollian, clearly have the spirit and the heart to use the Staff effectively; but they don't necessarily have the lore, the knowledge, to accomplish everything that the Staff is capable of doing. (The absence of runes on the new Staff is not an accident.) Also the new Staff is profoundly different than Berek's original creation. It was formed, not from the wood of the One Tree, but from one sentient (Findail) and one quasi-sentient (Vain) being, each of whose nature affects the inherent qualities of both the new Staff and what the new Staff can do. (And then there's the interesting question of whether Sunder and Hollian would actually *want* to heal the broken Law of Life, since by doing so they might undo themselves.) And in addition: when the new Staff was created, it became an inherent participant in both Law and Earthpower, just as Berek's did; BUT the *condition* of Law and Earthpower when Linden created her Staff was different than it was when Berek created his; and therefore the *condition* of the new Staff is also different.

So. The creation of the new Staff did not *in itself* restore the broken Laws of Death and Life. Presumably it *could*. If the right wielder used it in the right way. But that hasn't happened yet.
(12/20/2004)

In the Gradual Interview was wrote:Linden’s position in “Runes” could hardly be more different. Her health-sense is keen; she already knows how powerful the ring can be; and she doesn’t need to learn how to use the Staff because she *created* it (everything about it is, among other things, an expression of her own identity). She could generate incinerating levels of force with frightening ease.
(02/12/2005)

In the Gradual Interview was wrote:So how did Law remain intact before Berek created the first Staff? By being what it is. It is the nature of Law (the defined processes which make life possible) to remain intact. I don't know how to explain this well. But I suspect that in all good fantasy there is an organic relationship between the instruments of power and the power that those instruments wield (for example, Sauron could not be killed as long as his ring existed). Law did not need the Staff in order to exist and preserve itself (just as Sauron existed long before he created the rings of power); but when Berek created the Staff as an instrument of Law he could only do so by making it an organic expression of Law. And when he did that, he brought about a situation which had not existed previously, a situation in which the Staff could not be "removed" without damaging Law (because of the organic relationship: you can graft branches onto certain kinds of plants, but once those grafts have taken hold you can't cut out the new branches without wounding the whole plant, even though the plant was fine before you did your grafting).

As for Foul's reasons for messing with the Lords: why do you assume that they had no real power to release him from his prison? The very fact that Berek created the Staff (an organic instrument vulnerable to destruction) shows that the Lords were (inadvertently) helping to create the conditions necessary to Foul's release: they were (unintentionally) devising ways by which Law would be made vulnerable to damage.(03/19/2005)

In the Gradual Interview was wrote:b) Well, Linden didn't exactly have a lot of time to work before she left the Land. There was a great deal that she didn't or couldn't know about how things *should* be in the Land. In addition, her Staff is not identical to Berek's, so its capacities are different. And then there's the whole issue of whether a mere "instrument" can alter that which the instrument expresses. After all, the *Staff* didn't break the Law of Death. Naturally there's some ambiguity as to whether or not the Staff *can* repair the damage.
(03/20/2006)

In the Gradual Interview was wrote:This whole conundrum would be much simpler if you accepted Mhoram's statement ("You are the white gold") as a metaphor. (He could have said of Linden in TROTE, "You are the Staff of Law".)
(04/26/2006)

What kind of picture seems to be emerging?

This is my interpretation.

The Staff is not yet complete, and the job it needs to do has not yet been completed, despite everyone's efforts in the Second Chronicles. And it's Linden's job to do it: the Staff is hers, and there's no one capable of taking her place. At least, as long as there is no lore which allows the Staff to be handed down to the next weilder: the Masters, and Anele's loss, have ensured there is no one else even close to capable.

The Land is not yet healed from the breaking of Laws. The breakings cannot be erased or undone, only recovered from, rebuilt, perhaps differently than before. And, while this task remains undone, the Land and Earthpower are endangered: the making of the new Staff creates a new opportunity to harm the Land as well as one to heal it.

So of course Linden needs the Staff. The story of the Staff isn't over. And it's Linden's job to finish that story. Covenant is the ringweilder, but Linden is the Staffweilder.

Nerdanel wrote:Linden DOES have an idea where to look for the Staff.

Not when she initially decides that this will be her "quest." And it is not until at least another 100 pages that she finds out Anele was the one who lost it, and again much longer until she believes him, and then another 100+ pages before Esmer gives her the idea of traveling back in time to get it. So no, this "plan" isn't feasible to her until around page 300--long after she's committed to doing it. According to what Donaldson chose to put in the text (ignoring our personal theories), Linden's decision to go after the Staff is a blind, unquestioning choice. Ok, TC "told" her to get it in a dream. But Covenant also said, "Find me." Why not do that first? And then go find the Staff together? If that idea is stupid, I'd at least like to have seen her dismiss it.

Linden goes after the Staff because Donaldson wants her to, not because she wants to. It's just a plot device without any explicitly written character motivation. There is no other reason supplied by the text. Sure, we can infer or hypothesize reasons. But considering this is the main goal of Book I, I think the main character's motivations for seeking it should have been concrete, and more personally-derived than a mere hint in a dream. The dream hint could have been the genesis--nothing wrong with that--but I would've liked to have seen her thinking about it, acknowledging that it doesn't make much sense, but deciding to trust TC anyway.

Another way to say it is: dream instructions are contrived plot devices. Couldn't Donaldson have worked a bit harder to come up with something a little less "convienent?" It's too easy. Do you wake up and do what people tell you in your dreams? How the hell does she know this is the actual Covenant, and not simply a dream of him? Why isn't this doubt at least presented (and then overcome) in the text? It's just not convincing. It reeks of ad hoc author interference. Maybe even deus ex machina is appropriate description.

Nerdanel wrote: I didn't mean that the Staff would be that much help in finding Jeremiah. . .Linden figures that more power = better for survival. . .It's not like Linden thinks Lord Foul is just going to hand Jeremiah away intact, . . .

Where does it say ANY of this in the text? That's my whole point: you can come up with reasons for Linden's actions, but Linden herself doesn't come up with reasons for her actions. If she would have just said the above to herself, then I'd be fine with it. Donaldson would have established her motivation. But the fact that we have to put words in her mouth and motivations in her head ourselves means that Donaldson didn't do his job, and her actions--as presented by the text--are without cause. They just happen because Donaldson wanted it to happen that way.

Fist and Faith wrote:Knowing that Covenant loves her, and that he chose to save the life of an unknown girl over the Land, I'd say Linden trusts that he is thinking of Jeremiah's best interests. Of course, it can be assumed that he has the Land's best interests in mind, also. And, being who he is, and what he is, he can likely see a way to save both.

Yes. You'd say. But Linden didn't say. Again, all Donaldson would have to do is write a bit of mental monologue stating the above. But even if he had Linden think, "I can trust Covenant," he never addressses why she thinks her dream is actually her dead lover talking to her. He just has her assume it, and then moves on as if it's perfectly natural for dead people to talk to you in dreams, and for characters to accept it without question. This isn't natural.

Xar wrote: when thinking about how Kevin's Dirt could have formed with the Staff of Law still intact, Linden concluded that probably the Staff didn't work properly at that time (perhaps because there was no one to wield it. So she assumed that recovering the Staff and wielding it might provide the basis for dispelling Kevin's Dirt, which in turn would help her by leading all the people of the Land to see its loveliness again, which in turn would have them perhaps rebel to the Masters, but also give them a compelling reason to help her to save Jeremiah.

Good theory. I wish Linden would have thought of it. She doesn't. It's not in the text. That's my whole point.

I suppose I should have named this thread, "Why does Linden think she needs the Staff?" Maybe that would have avoided some confusion here.

Wayfriend wrote:So of course Linden needs the Staff. The story of the Staff isn't over. And it's Linden's job to finish that story. Covenant is the ringweilder, but Linden is the Staffweilder.

Wayfriend, I agree completely. But Donaldson having reasons for Linden seeking the staff is the not same thing as Linden having reasons for seeking the Staff. Linden doesn't share the author's desire to "finish the story." She is merely the author's tool for doing so.

It's obvious that Donaldson wants her to get it: he made this the entire point of Book I. But her motivations for doing so are contrived merely for Donaldson's needs as the architect of this story, not for Linden's stated motivations in the book.

Malik23 wrote:

Nerdanel wrote:Linden DOES have an idea where to look for the Staff.

Not when she initially decides that this will be her "quest." And it is not until at least another 100 pages that she finds out Anele was the one who lost it, and again much longer until she believes him, and then another 100+ pages before Esmer gives her the idea of traveling back in time to get it. So no, this "plan" isn't feasible to her until around page 300--long after she's committed to doing it. According to what Donaldson chose to put in the text (ignoring our personal theories), Linden's decision to go after the Staff is a blind, unquestioning choice. Ok, TC "told" her to get it in a dream. But Covenant also said, "Find me." Why not do that first? And then go find the Staff together? If that idea is stupid, I'd at least like to have seen her dismiss it.

Linden goes after the Staff because Donaldson wants her to, not because she wants to. It's just a plot device without any explicitly written character motivation. There is no other reason supplied by the text. Sure, we can infer or hypothesize reasons. But considering this is the main goal of Book I, I think the main character's motivations for seeking it should have been concrete, and more personally-derived than a mere hint in a dream. The dream hint could have been the genesis--nothing wrong with that--but I would've liked to have seen her thinking about it, acknowledging that it doesn't make much sense, but deciding to trust TC anyway.

Another way to say it is: dream instructions are contrived plot devices. Couldn't Donaldson have worked a bit harder to come up with something a little less "convienent?" It's too easy. Do you wake up and do what people tell you in your dreams? How the hell does she know this is the actual Covenant, and not simply a dream of him? Why isn't this doubt at least presented (and then overcome) in the text? It's just not convincing. It reeks of ad hoc author interference. Maybe even deus ex machina is appropriate description.

I disagree with you here. First of all, you make a faulty assumption - that what is true here is true within the context of the Land. True, here in the real world people don't usually wake up and do what the people they dreamt of told them to do. But in the real world, none of us has seen the spirits of his old friends of many years ago, or sailed on a Giantship, or possessed another human being, or been possessed by a Raver, or... the list could continue. The main point is that Linden knows (and well she should) that within the Land the laws simply operate differently, and if she dreams of Covenant telling her something, she knows there is a real chance this is the real Covenant talking with her, and not necessarily just a dream. After all, she knows she spoke with the real Covenant even after he had died and when she was returning to the real world! And it doesn't matter whether you, the reader, disagree that the entity she spoke to at the end of the Second Chronicles was the real Covenant and not, say, a dream; as long as she believes it was Covenant, then she'll act following that belief. So, if she knows she spoke with him after he had been slain, and if she knows Foul can reach the real world, why shouldn't she assume that when she suddenly dreams of Covenant's voice telling her to do something (and we have no reason in the text to believe that such dreams are a common occurrence for her), then I'd say any person who went through the ordeal of the Second Chronicles would put quite a store of trust in this kind of communication.

Also, TC told her to find the Staff of Law and to find him, true. But given that, at the beginning, she doesn't have the faintest idea of how to find either, and given that she knows Covenant is dead (and therefore presumably will be hard, if not near-impossible to "find" without a power that will allow her to probe those areas - a power more reliable than wild magic, which she can't fully master), AND given that Covenant tells her to "find me" but doesn't provide her with any clues as to how and why, I'd assume that she went for the sensible choice. Faced with the choice of which of two things to find first, and not knowing where to look for either one, she chooses to seek the only one which has (or should have) corporeal existence and therefore can actively be "found" without need of magic to assist her in her search (and as you pointed out, at this time she doesn't know yet she'll have to go back in time to get the Staff). Finding out that Anele was the guardian of the Staff and that he lost it, and where and when, is simply confirmation for her that she chose the right way.

Finally, I don't think Linden actually has the luxury of allowing herself to spend days pondering over her decision, like Covenant used to do in the First Chronicles, or to a lesser extent in the Second Chronicles. She's first trying to escape from both Masters and kresh, then being rushed to the Verge of Wandering, then taken by the Ranyhyn, then witnesses Stave's and Esmer's duel... the poor woman has little time to regain her bearings. And Donaldson is under no obligation to tell us in real time all that goes through a character's mind, even the protagonist: for all you know, Linden might have reached that conclusion logically, in any one of the chapters where the point of view is more external than internal. This happened even in the Second Chronicles: when the Search returns and goes to Revelstone, we never read Covenant's thoughts about immolating himself in the Banefire; we may have clues, but we never catch any from his thoughts until he does it. If you apply this criticism to Linden in Runes, then you should do the same to Covenant's immolation in the Banefire, or to a lesser extent to Covenant's caamora in Coercri, or the thoughts that passed through his mind while lost in wild magic at the One Tree...

Malik23 wrote:

Nerdanel wrote: I didn't mean that the Staff would be that much help in finding Jeremiah. . .Linden figures that more power = better for survival. . .It's not like Linden thinks Lord Foul is just going to hand Jeremiah away intact, . . .

Where does it say ANY of this in the text? That's my whole point: you can come up with reasons for Linden's actions, but Linden herself doesn't come up with reasons for her actions. If she would have just said the above to herself, then I'd be fine with it. Donaldson would have established her motivation. But the fact that we have to put words in her mouth and motivations in her head ourselves means that Donaldson didn't do his job, and her actions--as presented by the text--are without cause. They just happen because Donaldson wanted it to happen that way.

Again, see above. Throughout the Second Chronicles, Covenant doesn't come up with reasons for several actions either; he only does them. Were those also things Donaldson just "wanted to happen"? Authors don't have to show everything to their readers - and Linden is not even the main protagonist of the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, so a certain distance from her that we didn't expericence with TC is actually understandable.

Malik23 wrote:

Fist and Faith wrote:Knowing that Covenant loves her, and that he chose to save the life of an unknown girl over the Land, I'd say Linden trusts that he is thinking of Jeremiah's best interests. Of course, it can be assumed that he has the Land's best interests in mind, also. And, being who he is, and what he is, he can likely see a way to save both.

Yes. You'd say. But Linden didn't say. Again, all Donaldson would have to do is write a bit of mental monologue stating the above. But even if he had Linden think, "I can trust Covenant," he never addressses why she thinks her dream is actually her dead lover talking to her. He just has her assume it, and then moves on as if it's perfectly natural for dead people to talk to you in dreams, and for characters to accept it without question. This isn't natural.

See above. Not in the real world, but in the magical reality of the Land, Linden had plenty of examples to show her that dead people can communicate with the living in many ways. Are ghosts natural? Or the nicor? Or the Elohim? Not to mention the Wraiths of Andelain, the Sunbane, the Banefire, Kevin's Dirt, caesures...

Xar wrote:First of all, you make a faulty assumption - that what is true here is true within the context of the Land. . . I'd say any person who went through the ordeal of the Second Chronicles would put quite a store of trust in this kind of communication.

Fair enough. It may make sense for Linden to accept supernatural events more readily in the Land. But it would have been nice for Donaldson to have her think: "Can I trust this dream? Yes, I can trust it. I'm in the Land. I've seen miracles. It is condign." Or something like that. Just something to ease us--and her--into the Land. After all, it's been 10 years. A modicum of adjustment would have made it more believable from a character standpoint. Or, if instant ,unquestioning acceptance was what Donaldson was going for, then he should have said, "Linden never questioned it. Her experiences in the Land forged her into a woman who didn't doubt such things."

AND given that Covenant tells her to "find me" but doesn't provide her with any clues as to how and why, I'd assume that she went for the sensible choice.

Yes, you'd assume. But it would have only cost Donaldson a paragraph or two to turn our assumptions into Linden's choices, thoughts, motivations. Then we wouldn't have to fill in the blanks ourselves for the most important character motivation of this book.

Finally, I don't think Linden actually has the luxury of allowing herself to spend days pondering over her decision

She allows herself the luxury of making sure Liand knows the risks while Masters are hot on her trail. She allows herself the luxury of listening to Anele's story while kresh are attacking. She allows herself the "luxury" of sitting in a Mithil prison--even when she's free to leave--because she feels sorry for Anele. Clearly, she's not averse to delaying for matters she considers essential. What bugs me is that she doesn't consider thinking out the rationalizations behind her quest as essential.

Besides, you're assuming it would take days to think about this. It would only take a few sentences. She could think about this stuff en route. No need to delay. Donaldson has her thinking all sorts of stuff while she's walking, climbing, crawling.

And Donaldson is under no obligation to tell us in real time all that goes through a character's mind, even the protagonist: for all you know, Linden might have reached that conclusion logically, in any one of the chapters where the point of view is more external than internal.

The author has no obligation to explain or show us his main character's primary motivation? Okay, fine. He also has no obligation to write the book well. I'm just talking about the criteria for a well-written story. Donaldson can do what he wants. "For all you know"??? Exactly my point.

when the Search returns and goes to Revelstone, we never read Covenant's thoughts about immolating himself in the Banefire; we may have clues, but we never catch any from his thoughts until he does it.

But Donaldson makes it clear that this is an issue for Covenant. He goes to great length to let us know Covenant IS thinking about it, even if he keeps that motivation partially disguised. He at least gives us enough to expect that Covenant will kill himself in the Banefire--enough so that we are surprised when he does not.

SRD could have done something similar with Linden. He could have her think, "Something about this dream advice seemed condign to Linden. Though the exact reasons were inchoate and hidden from her, her soul yearned to be reunited with the Staff, as if it part of her identity would not be complete until she found it." (That last bit was in reference to Wayfriend's excellent theory.) SRD wouldn't have to make it explicit, as long as he made it an issue. As it stands, it's not even an issue. Indeed, the examples you give are examples of intentionally obscured motivations . . . intentional sources of mystery. It's clear that Donaldson WANTS us to wonder what TC's motivations are (acknowledging that there are actual motivations which we don't fully understand yet). There are no such hints or intentional mystery for Linden's case. It's just like the author forgot to mention it.

I don't think Linden contemplated obtaining the Staff until she learned about who Anele was, and what the Staff's situation was. This then re-inforced Covenant's words. (And Covenant probably told her this because he knew she had Anele.)

At that point, I fail to see a mystery about in-story motivation.

You go through hell and high water to make a Staff which is absolutely and utterly necessary for the Land, and then when you come back the next day someone screwed the pooch. You'd naturally say, I guess if you want it done right you gotta do it youself, and straighten out the mess.

Linden is totally invested in the Land having a new Staff. She worked too hard to make it, to see it lost. The Staff is her personal emblem of her success in the Land.

Then the question is, why fix up the Staff problem before getting Jeremiah. And that's been covered above: she needs power to face Foul. Covenant wants her to. Anele, whom she knows is important, needs it. And Esmer all but dares her to go do it.

Wayfriend wrote:I don't think Linden contemplated obtaining the Staff until she learned about who Anele was, and what the Staff's situation was. This then re-inforced Covenant's words.

No. Covenant tells her she needs it on page 117, in the dream in Old Friends. By page 125--by the time Stave recognizes her as The Chosen--she thinks,

"You need the Staff of Law. Perhaps now she would be able to begin her search."

She has already decided that she'll search for the Staff, without knowing a thing about it, in the Mithil gaol. If Donaldson were talking about "search for Jeremiah," here, he would have substituted, "Tell her I have her son," for the Italicized portion. In addition, by page 135 (while still in the the gaol) she thinks:

Nor could she imagine where the lost Staff might be found. For that search also she would need help."

Clearly, she's committed to this choice by now.

Wayfriend wrote: (And Covenant probably told her this because he knew she had Anele.)

It doesn't matter why Covenant told her this. That's his motivation, not hers. Curiously, I did uncover some evidence that she doubts it was actually Covenant talking to her. Page 136:

"If Covenant could have heard her--if he had been anything more than a figment of her dreams--she might have groaned aloud, I need you. I don't think I can do this."

So she does question the reality of his instructions. So at what point does she overcome this uncertainty? I don't believe that's ever answered.

Wayfriend wrote: At that point, I fail to see a mystery about in-story motivation.

There's not really a problem for usto know her motivation. I just see no evidence that Linden knows her motivation. And if it was meant to be a subconscious motivation, Donaldson should have said this.

Wayfriend wrote:Linden is totally invested in the Land having a new Staff. She worked too hard to make it, to see it lost. The Staff is her personal emblem of her success in the Land.

There is zero evidence that Linden feels this way. Sure, it might make sense for her to feel this way, but we never see her actually experiencing the emotion. We don't have to see every emotion she feels, but if that emotion is the engine behind the singular goal of an entire book, you better believe we should SEE that emotion.

Wayfriend wrote:Then the question is, why fix up the Staff problem before getting Jeremiah. And that's been covered above: she needs power to face Foul. Covenant wants her to. Anele, whom she knows is important, needs it. And Esmer all but dares her to go do it.

It may have been covered above, but it wasn't covered in the text. She has already made her decision before she knows about Anele and Esmer. So those issues weren't part of her motivation. Only Covenant's instructions were relevant--and I've shown that she doubts the reality of that dream. In order to prove your case, all you have to do is post some quote from the book which illustrates why Linden thinks she needs to get the Staff--but that quote must appear between pages 117 (when Covenant tells her to get it) and page 135, where she positively affirms her intention to follow that advice. So far, with 15 posts, no one has bothered to do this.

A few points:
1) She needs to find Foul to find Jeremiah.
2) Facing Foul alone and powerless is a really stupid idea.
3) Helping the Land is her second priority.
4) She feels incomplete and perhaps ineffectual without her healthsense.
5) She has deduced that Kevin's Dirt had something to do with loss or misuse of the Staff.
6) She was told to get the Staff in a message that may or may not be real.

From 6, getting the Staff might be important. From the others, having the Staff would offer her a solution to the Dirt, help her restore her Healthsense, and give her power with which to face Foul.
Not getting the Staff would ignore a potentially important message, leave her impotent and blind, and leave the Land without aid.


(Hmm. The word "impotent" brought something to mind here: where is Linden's guilt? Guilt is power, after all...)

That's part of the problem Murrin. Linden has no guilt. Her motivation has been reduced to a rather tired cliche, the missing child.

And I totally disagree about #3. Helping the land is quite clearly her second priority at this stage of the novel. When she first meets Roger, saving the Land is the first thing she thinks of.

Malik23 wrote:

Wayfriend wrote:I don't think Linden contemplated obtaining the Staff until she learned about who Anele was, and what the Staff's situation was. This then re-inforced Covenant's words.

No. Covenant tells her she needs it on page 117, in the dream in Old Friends. By page 125--by the time Stave recognizes her as The Chosen--she thinks,

"You need the Staff of Law. Perhaps now she would be able to begin her search."

How can she contemplate obtaining the Staff at this point? She doesn't have any clues about how she might go about doing that. So all she has is a desire. She cannot act on it until she knows where it is and how to get there. And that doesn't happen until later.

Malik23 wrote:She has already decided that she'll search for the Staff, without knowing a thing about it, in the Mithil gaol. If Donaldson were talking about "search for Jeremiah," here, he would have substituted, "Tell her I have her son," for the Italicized portion. In addition, by page 135 (while still in the the gaol) she thinks:

Nor could she imagine where the lost Staff might be found. For that search also she would need help."

Clearly, she's committed to this choice by now.

Not clear at all. You just pointed out my position: She wants to get it, but doesn't have any idea how, and so (necessarilly) does not do anything about it yet.

Malik23 wrote:

Wayfriend wrote: (And Covenant probably told her this because he knew she had Anele.)

It doesn't matter why Covenant told her this.

That's the second time you've acted like you owned this thread shot down something because you decided it didn't fit the topic. Please stop. Topics expand and wander.

Malik23 wrote:

Wayfriend wrote:Linden is totally invested in the Land having a new Staff. She worked too hard to make it, to see it lost. The Staff is her personal emblem of her success in the Land.

There is zero evidence that Linden feels this way.

You know, I was always scared what would happen if people started doing in the Chronicles threads what they do in the Tank...

Good posts, people.

I agree that we don't need to be told everything. I think it's a sign of a good author not to spell out every little thing but instead know when to trust the reader to figure out the obvious. Those few explanatory sentences per every single decision add up fast. And people still complain that Linden is too introspective... It's possible to err both in the direction of too much or too little explanation. (I have done both in my fiction in the past.)

SRD from the nightmare dimension wrote:Linden made some porridge and ate it, as she was hungry after a night of not eating, as she had been asleep in order to rest. After she had eaten and wanting to put on a coat, she walked to the closet where she kept that coat as that was where the coat was. Once the coat, that precious thing that protected her from the chilly autumn winds of this present season, was on her, as well as the shoes Linden liked to wear when going outside her house, like she was doing now, for now was the time Linden had to leave house if she wished to be in time for work, which she had to do as she wanted to keep earning herself money and thus be capable of continuing to eat and keep Jeremiah fed, so that they would both stay alive, and also to spend money on the various other necessities and pleasures of life, desirable for their pleasurableness, as the society in which Linden lived had not abolished money.

A stupid example, I know, but I hope it illustrates the point. By the way, Malik, do you think Tolkien is a bad author because he doesn't dwell on his characters' inner monologues, allowing the characters' characters to be revealed through their actions (pun not intended)? (For me Tolkien is the only author I rate over SRD.)

As an another example, I felt the TV series Babylon 5, into which I was once upon a time severely hooked, was at its best when we knew about the alien Shadows but they still remained largely shadowy entities so that we weren't quite sure what they were capable of and what they were after except that they were formidable and scary. Later on we got a pretty good picture of those matters, and the Shadows were reduced into yet another (powerful) TV villain. "Get the hell out of our galaxy." So anticlimactic. Now, I know Linden isn't a villain, but she's a complex character, and anyway this paragraph was meant to illustrate the benefits of not spelling everything out on a larger level. I like it that Linden's competing priorities prevent her from becoming a one-not predictable character, as what she chooses to do will be more influenced by the specific nuances of her situation.

I also think Linden only really started her quest for the Staff of Law after she heard Esmer explain about the caesures, thus moving the Staff away from the wishful thinking territory into a realistically attainable goal. Her previous "quest" was just basically running from the Masters to the south instead of to the north in order to do something unexpected like Covenant had told her to all the while hoping to bump into some clues so that she could start a real quest for Jeremiah/Covenant/Staff of Law/something else that . After that she went to meet the Ramen because it's not like she had any better ideas.

I think it makes perfect sense for Linden to think her dreams mean something. After all, this is high fantasy, and communicating through dreams has been established earlier in the series. (Lord Mhoram has dreams of Lord Foul. It is also revealed that even though Triock's quest to send word to Revelstone appeared unsuccessful, the momentary glow of the wood was enough to send a dream to Mhoram about the Unfettered One's death.) Certain people who, against all probability and evidence, still believe that the Land is not real and the series is basically pure realism that just happens to have main characters with overly vivid imaginations, should have especially little trouble believing Linden's dream-within-a-dream significant in the context of the greater dream, as dreaming while in a dream is basically the same as a normal dream.