Kevin's Watch

I have discovered some disturbing sentences in LFB. In his prophetic words to TC at the beginning of the book LF says something like this about his encounter with Kevin:

But the Power which upholds me has stood since the creation of Time.

and a few lines later:

... he did not know, that the very law which he served had preserved me through that cataclysm...

But these sentences imply, that Lord Foul, who is supposed to be the brother of the Creator and thus independent of the Earth, is somehow upheld by the Earthpower - and in the Second Chronicles he attacks the very Law which preserves him! What is his connection to Earthpower?

maybe but also LF doesnt specify 'earth power' per se .. he just states as you rightly quoted ..

the power which upholds me has stood since the creation of Time

I doubt LF is referring to 'earth' power .. as presumably there are other forms of power ..

.. being an immortal being this power might be some form of Universal power .. the power that realised his very existence .. that enables all existence .. particularly that of immortal beings and is accessible to such in their creation of planetary inhabitations within the/a Universal construct.

and mayhap 'the very law he served that preserved LF through the cataclysm' .. relates to the same weakness discovered in the Law .. that Lena's father and Mhoram both uncovered .. I am clutching at straws now .. but I feel there is more to this than meets the eye

you have come up with a number of excellently interesting and perplexing threads .. I must away to ponder this one further ..

*a nods as good as a wink to a blind man*

It is entirely possible that this power that preserved LF was chaos. For in the heart of all creation there is a grain of chaos. What I mean by that is the powers that are used to cause the bindings between the elements to form other types of materials. These raw powers are probably what preserved LF in my untrained mind.
I agree that LF corrupted the earthpower, but it was in an attempt to have the creator finally get so disgusted by what was happening in his world that he would have to personally enter the realm aqnd do battle, thereby destroying the aot. Or by corrupting the realm enough, he might have been able to weaken the aot enough that he could break it from within and escape to battle with the creator.
And by another thread, (I am really reaching here), he might also have been able to then enter other worlds at a thought or whim to wreak havoc to suit his own twisted desires that much more easily. Don't forget that in the 2nd chrons. he was able to project his will into our world, but with some difficulty. I don't even want to think of what he could do if all restraints were removed from him.

Exactly!--Excellent points Thorm-C SHFF's story of creation in LFB--almost says the same things! Like I said on the Old discussion forum Lord Foul is already on earth and has assumed the form of Dick Cheney!

looking for some more fodder for debates. thought this deserved a bump.

What occurs to me is that maybe what makes the Ritual of Desecration is mighty is that it taps into something other than Earthpower. Maybe it uses whateveritis that is the source of both Foul and the Creator (albeit at a very tiny level).

Just a thought.

That's something that's been on my mind lately as well, Zahir. Despair and desecration don't necessarily require earthpower. i believe it was mentioned once or twice, at least in the 2nd chrons, of the unimagined destruction white gold could create in despair.

i'm wondering how any power wielded by humans could not be used in despair. even lore as positive as healing can sustain you while you ravage your environment.

I'm not sure if helps, but Amok said:

"Ah, High Lord, all things are interwoven. The Seventh Ward may ignore white gold, and the master of white gold may have no use for the Seventh Ward - yet both are power, forms and faces of the one Power of life."

Also, the song about wild magic and white gold that the Lords sang in <I>The Council of Lords</I> is very vague, yet all-encompassing. I think we can justify the ideas that are being discussed here.

BTW, Amok's quote reminds me of Ged in <U>A Wizard of Earthsea</U>:

"It is no secret. All power is one in source and end, I think. Years and distances, stars and candles, water and wind and wizardry, the craft in a man's hand and the wisdom in a tree's root: they all arise together. My name, and yours, and the true name of the sun, or a spring of water, or an unborn child, all are syllables of the great word that is very slowly spoken by the shining of the stars. There is no other power. No other name."

If there is but one Power of life, does that mean there's a Power of death?

For that matter, certainly there are other magicks than Earthpower. The Illearth Stone, for one. The Theurgy of Kaseryn of the Gyre for another.

Just a couple of thoughts. Its too early and I've too much blood in my caffeine system....

Perhaps the creator put a finite amount of power in his creations. Like space on your comp! Some of it's Earthpower, the wards, the forestals, the Elohim, the EarthBlood, etc. Some of it's used by banes like the Illearth stone. Demondim lore also uses it. And I guess some of it's just floating around, that would be just "Earthpower" like just everywhere. Ranyhyn hold it, people too though waaaay less. The Wraiths. Glimmermere. Aliantha. Hurtloam. Any instance of power usage. Except white gold, because that comes from outside the land and while it is the crux of the arch of time, it is not INSIDE it, sort of.
Now: Why does the RoD affect only the Land? Kevins saved the Ranyhyn and the Giants (and the Bloodguard!) by sending them away...Why is the Land so separate from everything, if it's all the same power? Maybe the ritual of desecration sort of jerks the universal power out from under the feet of everything that uses power in the Land...and it has to seep back in naturally, that's why it takes a while for the Land to recover. But LF wasn't destroyed because you can't jerk the power out of him...that all there is, at the core...you jerk it away, you just moved lord foul somewhere else! Taken away his solidity, yes, but his essence is in the power, not his form...Sort of like our Law about the destruction and creation of matter/enrgy.....in certain ways...Anyway....

If there is but one Power of life, does that mean there's a Power of death?

I'd say death is a part of life, two sides to a coin, yadda yadda.

And I'd guess the RoD only ravaged the land (and even then, not all of it) because Kevin or any other person can only act as a conduit for the earthpower, and that conduit can only handle so much power... kind of like a capacitor. some can store very large charges (some of the equipment i work with has caps that can discharge over 50k volts), but those caps still only store a fraction of the energy within a system.

What is the connection between Lord Foul and earthpower?

I have proposed the theory, in another thread, that the staff of law was necessary to keep earthpower stable because it is the nature of earthpower to change. The implication of this is that earthpower and the law is really the same thing. The law is earthpower and earthpower is the law.

Now it is clear that LF is not a creature of the land. This is stated in TIW, where it is said that:

It holds no sway over anything which is not a natural part of earth's creation. Thus it is not possible to Command the Despiser to cease his warring. It is not possible to Command his death. He lived before the arch of Time was forged - the Power can not compel him.

The answer might be just this simple: LF was not destroyed by the Ritual of Desecration because he is not wholly a subject to the laws of creation and thus not to earthpower or its effects. The power which preserves him may be the arch of Time itself, which contains him.

Ryzel wrote:I have proposed the theory, in another thread, that the staff of law was necessary to keep earthpower stable because it is the nature of earthpower to change. The implication of this is that earthpower and the law is really the same thing. The law is earthpower and earthpower is the law.

Makes sense since the Sunbane was a corruption of the Earthpower.

fightingmyinstincts wrote:Perhaps the creator put a finite amount of power in his creations. Like space on your comp! Some of it's Earthpower, the wards, the forestals, the Elohim, the EarthBlood, etc. Some of it's used by banes like the Illearth stone. Demondim lore also uses it. And I guess some of it's just floating around, that would be just "Earthpower" like just everywhere. Ranyhyn hold it, people too though waaaay less. The Wraiths. Glimmermere. Aliantha. Hurtloam. Any instance of power usage.

fightingmyinstincts, I <I>love</I> this post! This idea might be right. Such a huge amount that we've never seen anything near its upper limit. I wonder if there could be a way to draw ALL Earthpower into one person/being/thing. The Elohim might be sitting down to a bowl of Cheerios, and suddenly, they start to feel weak as their very essence is drained away. The Ranyhyn and Haruchai fall from exhaustion. Mhoram looks puzzled at his staff, and taps it on the ground, muttering. Then yells, "Anybody got any C batteries? I need 75." If anything could draw out ALL Earthpower, the white gold would be it. Maybe the <I>Power of Command</I> too. Wouldn't that be something, if someone commanded all Earthpower to go to one specific spot? Everything would just drop dead.

fightingmyinstincts wrote:Except white gold, because that comes from outside the land and while it is the crux of the arch of time, it is not INSIDE it, sort of.

I don't really know what I think of white gold.

There is wild magic graven in every rock,
contained for white gold to unleash or control-

How is the wild magic different from Earthpower? Maybe it's not. Maybe white gold just allows you to use it however you want, whenever you want, without the need for chanting, singing, or anything else associated with spells.

fightingmyinstincts wrote:Now: Why does the RoD affect only the Land? Kevins saved the Ranyhyn and the Giants (and the Bloodguard!) by sending them away...Why is the Land so separate from everything, if it's all the same power? Maybe the ritual of desecration sort of jerks the universal power out from under the feet of everything that uses power in the Land...and it has to seep back in naturally, that's why it takes a while for the Land to recover.

<B>THIS</B> is a great question!! Maybe Kevin was High Lord over the Land, and so that was the thing he had power over. There's something in Marvel comics called the Ultimate Nullifier. With it, you can remove anything from existence. (The down-side is that you go too.) But you must be able to visualize the thing you want removed. <I>Perfectly</I> visualize. How big a thing can I perfectly visualize? Probably not much. In one alternate reality, a character nullified the entire universe. Clearly, he wasn't a human being to be able to do that. Aaaaanyway, maybe the Ritual releases - <I>violently</I> releases - the Earthpower <B>in everything that you name</B>. And Kevin only named the things he was familiar with, the things of the Land. (And Foul didn't add anything, because he didn't want powers from elsewhere entering the conflict at that point.)

fightingmyinstincts wrote:But LF wasn't destroyed because you can't jerk the power out of him...that all there is, at the core...you jerk it away, you just moved lord foul somewhere else! Taken away his solidity, yes, but his essence is in the power, not his form...Sort of like our Law about the destruction and creation of matter/enrgy.....in certain ways...Anyway....

I must conclude that Foul cannot be destroyed. If he could be, there's a good chance the Creator would have destroyed him when he saw the ill Foul had done to the Earth during creation. And the danger of Foul breaking the Arch wouldn't be so great if only that one world was destroyed. But the Creator does not want Foul loose in the universe. Which wouldn't be such a problem is the Creator could destroy him. In any event, surely nothing in the Land can kill him. Not the Ritual, not the laughter at the end of TPTP. Covenant keeps telling them that you can't kill Despite.

Also and I didn't think of this....maybe LF disappears at the end of WGW (have to reread...not real sure this is plausible) because he just used all his being...all he is is power, strip down the special effects...he just used raw power from himself until it was all gone. Or so it would appear...I don't think it'll be even as long as it was last time before he show s up again...and you can't get rid of him permanently...
Another question: What does it mean, "you are the white gold"? That would sorta support my above theory: LF thought he was using the power of WG to destroy Covenant and the AoT, but he can't use it...because it is Covenant...he was actually using himself, and just didn't notice until, poof! he's gone!
75 C batteries?! How many do you reckon Foul would take?!
I'm really not sure if WG is the same as Earthpower...I think it says somewhere, someone explains that it isn't...but it would have to be.....I don't know..
And there can be no Command more fraught with peril that to command all the power in one spot.....Yeesh!
I sort of think of the Banes as being turned off before creation, and then pretty much dormant in the Land until found, like being on standby. You wouldn't think they would use Earthpower, being put in from outside by Foul before creation, but if they were dormant until they were placed, then they probably absorbed the power they use from the earth....maybe...

Once again we are back to a question of earthpower. This is really a question of physics in the Land. However I have a few points that I think are worth considering:

Earthpower is not just one thing. It seems to me that earthpower is a sort of common name for most powers that are a natural part of creation. This power can have many different manifestations like:

-The Vow of the Bloodguard.
-Kevins Lore
-The Forestals Lore
-The Elohim
-Sandgorgons
-The Ranyhyn
-The lore of the Ur-Viles
-The lore of the stonedownors and the woodhelven
-The Ritual of Desecration
-Earthblood
and so on...

Note that some manifestations are creatures, while others are not.

Now white gold is not a natural part of creation and thus the power it commands is not the natural power of the land. It has power over creation because it is not a natural part of it, just like LF has power over creation although he is not a part of it. This makes LF a lot more like white gold wild magic than like earthpower. I believe that the antithesis of earthpower, i.e. a power that is a natural part of creation of the land but still is not earthpower is the Illearth Stone. This is probably one of the banes that LF set in creation before it was finished and it is his greatest tool for corrupting it.

Now notice that I put the ritual of desecration as an aspect of earthpower that is not really subject to Kevins lore. "It comes willingly to any hand" as Amok put it, I do not remember the actual quote. This means that it probably has its own set of rules and maybe it for example only can desecrate what the person considers worth desecrating or know about.

The Vow of the Bloodguard.
-Kevins Lore
-The Forestals Lore
-The Elohim
-Sandgorgons
-The Ranyhyn
-The lore of the Ur-Viles
-The lore of the stonedownors and the woodhelven
-The Ritual of Desecration
-Earthblood
and so on...

I always considered the Stonedowner and woodhelven
lore to be parts of Kevin's Lore. Prothall was able to use
Birinair's lillianrill rods on the Quest.

Earthpower is not just one thing. It seems to me that earthpower is a sort of common name for most powers that are a natural part of creation. This power can have many different manifestations like:

I never attributed earth power with phisical pressence as in a creater of the land, I thought that earth power was an aspect of the world put there by the creator to used to counter dispite. It was the lords/creatures/elohim etc. personal skill that dirrected the way that earth power was used.

Some of the creatures could use the earth power instinctivly others needed teaching and study.

KaosArcana wrote:I always considered the Stonedowner and woodhelven lore to be parts of Kevin's Lore. Prothall was able to use
Birinair's lillianrill rods on the Quest.

No, the <I>lillianrill</I> and <I>rhadhamaerl</I> are not part of Kevin's Lore. The people had this knowledge when they fled the Land after Kevin warned them of the upcoming Ritual. But they lost a lot of this lore because things were very difficult, and they had to concentrate only on what would help them stay alive.

(Hmmm, why didn't I remember this type of lore when I was trying to defend Mhoram's decision to abandon Kevin's Lore and look for some other lore? Is it also incompatible with the Oath?)

another bump