Kevin's Watch

Posted: **Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:10 pm**

This might have been covered before, but I was curious as to how the Sunbane developed over time, and how the Raver controlling the Clave disguised what was happening from the rest of them and people of the Land.

It presumably must have come on very slowly, as Earthpower was gradually perverted. There is a line in TWL about how the Forests died, with a desert sun rising over Garroting Deep which is reduced to

spilth

, but it's hard to imagine it happening suddenly...

Given that when the Raver took over the Clave there was no Banefire and no sacrifices to fuel it, how did they maintain the Sunbane?

It is a cruel irony in TWL that Lord Mhoram was indirectly responsible for the Clave by abandoning Kevin's lore, although TC must shoulder a large portion of blame for torching the Staff of Law. Not sure if sticking with Kevin's lore would have helped in its absence. Also, the adoption by the Ravers leading the Clave of the title "na-Mhoram" is the ultimate insult to his memory. Witness the scene in Mithil Stonedown when Covenant and Linden stand condemned because

'He names the na-mhoram as a friend'

Posted: **Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:08 am**

Just guessing, but we may hear more officiallt at some point in the new series.

Otherwise, I have some theories that I might put out there at some point when I have a bit more time to write.

Posted: **Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:32 pm**

In [u]The Wounded Land[/u] was wrote:"It is said that in generations past each new sun shone for five and six, even as many as seven days. But a sun of four days is now uncommon. And with my own eyes I have beheld only one sun of less than three."

I imagine that the Sunbane came on slow and sneaky. It started out as an imperceptible aura, with imperceptible effects. As it got stronger, it became more perceptible.

Possibly also, there was no clear delineation of phases early on. It was just present as a whole. As it grew stronger, it began to sort itself out, and begin dividing into different phases. At first the phases were not clearly seperate - for example, the rain phase may have been rain and pestilence and fertility and desert all at the same time, but was more rain than anything else. Perhaps there were other phases which withered away rather than became stronger.

For it is corruption. Like rot, it attempts to penetrate everything, and it grows in some places but not on others. The Sunbane rot took hold in the elements of rain, pestilence, fertility, and desert, and grew stronger there.

Over time, the phases strengthened. The delineations became clearer. The phase of rain became half rain, then mostly rain, then entirely rain. Stronger and Stronger.

And as it became stronger, it speeded up. When the phase of rain held sway, all the other phases were too strong to wait their turn. They fought each other for dominance. The stronger they got, the less time each phase held sway over the others.

- - - - -

As for the forests, well, it probably was some sort of tipover point. Early on, the forests healed themselves faster than the Sunbane could corrupt them. But they got farther and farther behind. One day, the damage reaches 100% ... and then they sloughed to the ground.

Did every tree and plant die at the same time? I think Covenant imagines it to be so, but it probably was not. It probably fell in pieces over time.

Posted: **Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:01 pm**

Leave it to Foul for so cruel a corruption of the land.

i am sure the change was so gradual at first, then when the negative affects began to become noticeable the clave arose and overthrew Revelstone, blaming the lords. Then they added the banefire to feed it under the guise of holding it off. meanwhile the suns went from 10 days to 3 and then 2.

Posted: **Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:14 pm**

I thought the Lords either disbanded or became corrupted and slowly developed into the Clave? [dw taps foot impatiently waiting for work day to end so he can go check his books].

dw

Posted: **Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:39 pm**

In [u]The Wounded Land[/u] was wrote:For a score of centuries, the Council served the Land's health in peace and fruitfulness. And at last the Lords began to believe that Lord Foul would never return, that Covenant had driven Despite utterly from the Earth. Paradise seemed to be within their grasp. Then in the confidence of peace, they looked back to High Lord Mhoram, and chose to change their names to mark the dawning of a new age. Their High Lord they christened the na-Mhoram; their Council they called the Clave.

[...] Through the centuries, they had grown blind, and had lost the means to know that the man who had been named the na-Mhoram, who had transformed the Council in the Clave, was a Raver.

[...] His Ravers shared his recovery; and he did not act overtly against the Land until samadhi Sheol had contrived his way into the Council, had begun its perversion, until several generations of na-Mhorams, each cunningly mastered by samadhi, had brought the Clave under Lord Foul's sway.

[...] Laboring always in secret, so that the Clave at all times had many uncorrupted members - people like Memla, who believed the Raver's lies, and were therefore sincere in their service - samadhi Sheol fashioned a tool for the Despiser, ill enough to preach the shedding of blood, pure enough to be persuasive.

Posted: **Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:59 pm**

Thanks, Wayfriend! [impatient tapping continues, but for different reasons now...]

dw

Posted: **Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:06 pm**

Wayfriend, thanks. But, what about the breaching of the gates of revelstone? wasnt there some mention somewhere that the gates had been breached and this was the battle when Revelstone fell to the Clave? I remember this, but dont know where it was. you seem to be able to find this stuff -- do you remember what I am talking about?

Posted: **Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:09 pm**

The gates of Revelstone were left unrepaired after they fell to the Giant-Raver and the walking Dead in TPTP (or was it TIW?). The people of the Land never repaired it. Since the Council of Lords at Revelstone became the Clave, there was no hostile takeover needed.

dw

Posted: **Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:43 pm**

I think Wayfriend makes a good observation about the cycles of Sunbane speeding up. If you think about it, that's really all Sunbane is: nature sped up. None of the individual faces of Sunbane are unnatural. It rains. Things grow. Things die, rot, and make homes for insects and such. Forests turn into deserts. Natures goes through all these stages, only on a much slower scale. It's a concentation of nature both in intensity and speed. Everyone talks about it being a perversion of Earthpower, but it seems more a perversion of Law with Earthpower as the tool. The particular form or structure of these natural phenomena is what has been perverted. They've been "stretched" into a new spatio-temporal shape.

Posted: **Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:58 pm**

I don't think Covenant can be blamed for blasting the Staff of Law. In fact I think it was one of the few things(if not the only one) he can't be blamed for. It was totally unintentional and unkowing on his part.

Posted: **Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:48 pm**

The Dark Overlord wrote:I don't think Covenant can be blamed for blasting the Staff of Law. In fact I think it was one of the few things(if not the only one) he can't be blamed for. It was totally unintentional and unkowing on his part.

I disagree. That's one of the sad things we must accept.

The wild magic is an intense magnification, if you will, of Covenant's will. If wild magic destroyed the staff, then something in Covenant, for a moment, wanted the Staff destroyed. I agree, it may have been reflexive or instinctual. But the reflex and instinct is in Covenant.

Covenant knew this. Dare I say, his principals about guilt and power made it impossible for him not to know this. He is responsible for his power, no one else.

This is a fundamental basis of the Second Chronicles - Covenant feeling responsible for destroying the Staff.

Posted: **Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:56 am**

Malik23 wrote:I think Wayfriend makes a good observation about the cycles of Sunbane speeding up. If you think about it, that's really all Sunbane is: nature sped up. None of the individual faces of Sunbane are unnatural. It rains. Things grow. Things die, rot, and make homes for insects and such. Forests turn into deserts. Natures goes through all these stages, only on a much slower scale. It's a concentation of nature both in intensity and speed. Everyone talks about it being a perversion of Earthpower, but it seems more a perversion of Law with Earthpower as the tool. The particular form or structure of these natural phenomena is what has been perverted. They've been "stretched" into a new spatio-temporal shape.

Agreed. Good post.

--A

Posted: **Fri Mar 16, 2007 2:16 pm**

Corruption of Law ... corruption of Earthpower ... I've never been clear on where Law stops and Earthpower starts. It's obvious the Law was corrupted by the Sunbane. But did corruption of Earthpower cause corruption of Law? Or versa vice? Or are they essentially the same thing to begin with?

Posted: **Fri Mar 16, 2007 2:49 pm**

I thought that Law was already weakened by the loss of the Staff, and that this helped the onset of the Sunbane and weakened the ability of the Lords to recognise this. They had effectively abandoned the previous Lore of the Lords, which probably didn't help either.

The Earthpower was corrupted but the fact that aliantha remained was taken by TC in the Wounded Land as indicating it hadn't been completely warped. Even under the Sunbane there were some indications of struggling Earthpower, such as that under the fertile sun plants some plants grew which had helpful properties - voure is the one that springs to mind.

Posted: **Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:30 pm**

Herem wrote:I thought that Law was already weakened by the loss of the Staff, and that this helped the onset of the Sunbane and weakened the ability of the Lords to recognise this. They had effectively abandoned the previous Lore of the Lords, which probably didn't help either.

I've always wondered just how the new Lords could have "grown blind" and not been able to see when the Raver took over the Clave. I can understand that they may have become arrogant or lax because of their successes, but how could they lose their Health-sense? It's not something that has to be learned, like a product of lore... did the loss of the Staff cause this too?

Spoiler

Of course, Kevin's Dirt didn't exist back then...

Posted: **Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:30 pm**

If you consider Law to be the "bones", and Earthpower as the "muscles", I think you have a pretty close analogy. Lore is simply the conduit through which the will of the wielder manipulates the muscles in accordence with the structure of the bones. You need all four to be effective: Will (or purpose), conduit, power, and structure. In the creation of the new staff of law(conduit), Linden provided the will/purpose, Vain the structure, and Findail the power.

Of the three, I think Vain may have been the most "pure".

Spoiler

Linden, we know, was anything but a pure spirit. Earthpower, of which Findail is a personification, had already been corrupted at the time of the making, so the new staff cannot help but be a tool of corrupted law.

Posted: **Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:57 pm**

Wayfriend wrote:Corruption of Law ... corruption of Earthpower ... I've never been clear on where Law stops and Earthpower starts. It's obvious the Law was corrupted by the Sunbane. But did corruption of Earthpower cause corruption of Law? Or versa vice? Or are they essentially the same thing to begin with?

Yes, I think SRD intends this fundamental ambiguity, to some extent. There are many posts on the GI where he talks about the paradoxical relationship between Earthpower and Law (or chaos and order, or passion and control). They are both necessary, though they are at odds with each other. What's that quote he likes to repeat? "Reason is the circumference of passion"? I guess Law is the circumference of Earthpower.

I was just pointing out that the in most discussions of Sunbane, the corruption of Law is never mentioned, even in the texts. Even Covenant calls it a corruption of Earthpower, IIRC. But then why is the solution a new Staff? What was missing--what made the Sunbane possible--was the weakened state of Law (due to the destroyed Staff). Corruption, as the Haruchai call LF, almost always works against Law. After all, it's not Earthpower that is keeping him prisoner. It is the Law of Time. Order restrains his essential chaos. And that's why he focuses his attacks upon order (Law).

But since that which is ordered is the world, and the world is fundamentally made up of Earthpower, attacks upon Law--at least within the world--are always going to manifest themselves as perturbations of Earthpower. It's like taking a stone sculpture and destroying its shape. The attack may have been upon its structure--because that is what has been destroyed--but the remnants are always broken stone.

Posted: **Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:13 pm**

DukkhaWaynhim wrote:The gates of Revelstone were left unrepaired after they fell to the Giant-Raver and the walking Dead in TPTP (or was it TIW?). The people of the Land never repaired it. Since the Council of Lords at Revelstone became the Clave, there was no hostile takeover needed.

dw

yeah, I found it in TWL -- i guess i forgot TC never saw revelstone after the attack of the giant raver, and thought it was damage in some other assault he saw. one more detail i missed. thanks

Posted: **Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:29 pm**

Malik23 wrote:I guess Law is the circumference of Earthpower.

Sounds right.

Malik23 wrote:I was just pointing out that the in most discussions of Sunbane, the corruption of Law is never mentioned, even in the texts.

Sure it has.

In [u]The Wounded Land[/u] was wrote:The riverbed was as desiccated as a desert. Had the Law itself become meaningless?
...
"Hell and blood." Bracing himself on the stone, Covenant heaved to his feet. "I don't believe it. He can't destroy the entire Law. If he did, the Land wouldn't exist anymore."
...
"Truth-?" Covenant hardly heard Sunder. He was absorbed in his own amazement. "There's still Earthpower-that's obvious. But it was never like this." He felt an intuitive chill of danger. "What's wrong with the Law?" Was that it? Had Foul found some way to destroy the Law itself? The Law?
...
"In all the Land, it is the last keep of the Law. With my strength, I hold its fabric unrent here."
...
And while he endured, he also corrupted. As he gained stature, the Law sickened.

So, the Law is sickened and rent, at least. Possibly not EXACTLY the same as corrupted...

Kevin's Watch

The onset of the Sunbane

The onset of the Sunbane