Kevin's Watch

I was reading through the last few chapters of Runes today to get a bit more information on that damned Mahdoubt, and I noticed something I missed the first time through:

As the Master's mount pounded the dirt, the boy waved his arms, urging the horse to run faster, and shouted encouragement to the other riders.
Even from so far away, Linden could see that his eyes were afire with excitement.

It looks like Jeremiah has been cured of his autism. How could that have happened? Didn't the Land lose the healing abilities it had when Covenant first arrived? And didn't the Despiser have him? Maybe the Despiser himself did it? I'm eager to see how Jeremiah acts in Fatal Revenant, and where this may lead later on.

You're not the only one. Another potential explanation of course is that it's not actually Jeremiah.

Say...would a Raver-possessed Jeremiah still display autism? I doubt it...

--A

my thoughts are that Jeremiah's autism is reflecting an aspect of his split mind: part of him is in the 'real world' and part of him has been in 'The Land'...

So what? All of him is in the Land now? TC's body stayed behind when he went to the Land, or so it would seem...

--A

I had a rather brilliant theory about the nature of Jeramiah's autism a few months back, but I have forgotten it...I'll have to look it up....dammit.

my point is that Jeremiah in the 'real world' displayed signs of autism. but what if it was only because another part of his brain/personality was elsewhere. So now that the 'other half' is here, he migh be viewed as 'complete'.
<shrug>

During the dissection, I discovered this passage. I believe it sheds a lot of light on Jeremiah's "autism".

In [b]The Runes of The Earth[/b] was wrote:She saw Jeremiah's plight as Hyn and Hynyn wished her to see it: as if he were simultaneously herself occupied by a Raver and Thomas Covenant lost in the stasis imposed by the Elohim. She needed them back desperately, Covenant and her son. All of their lives depended on it: the Land depended on it. And so she reached-or would reach-into him with her health-sense, seeking the place where his mind still lived.

The Ranyhyn elicited it from her, shared it with her: a field of flowers under an immaculate sun, pristine with warmth and promises. Covenant and now Jeremiah met her there, or would meet her, both children again, and unharmed; capable of a child's love, happiness, joy. Yet the visions of the horserite were unutterably cruel; for when she reached out to Covenant and Jeremiah, trying to restore them with herself, the Worm of the World's End squirmed from Covenant's mouth, and her son's dear face seemed to break open and become vile, bitter as Despite.

Hyn and Hynyn would have been kinder to simply trample Linden under their hooves.

You have to view this through the filter of the Ranyhyn's vision. But it implies that Ravers and Elohim might be involved. There is at least one earlier passage where Jeremiah's condition is likened to Covenant's stasis as well.

It also is not the only passage that refers to Linden trying to heal Jeremiah, and the consequences.

There's lots to speculate on, but only one thing to conclude: Jeremiah's condition is a snare set by Lord Foul.

The Land still has the capacity for healing: Linden found and used hurtloam twice (once for herself at Foul's guidance and once for the badly-injured Ramen). Apparently hurtloam regenerated after the Sunbane, although under Kevin's Dirt the people of the Land do not know it.

Usivius wrote:my point is that Jeremiah in the 'real world' displayed signs of autism. but what if it was only because another part of his brain/personality was elsewhere. So now that the 'other half' is here, he migh be viewed as 'complete'.
<shrug>

I get you, but what I meant was that now the first half will be back in the real world, so he shouldn't be complete here either.

--A

but he is rejoined now.. no? Wasn't his physical (real world) self brought to the Land too?

And, yah, I agree that his appearance is meant as a potential trap of despair for Linden. But it is also a potential chinck in the armour ...

Well, we don't have any evidence that it wasn't, but we know that TC left his body behind the other times, as did Linden. Joans body got crisped, so I assume that the med-techs at haven farm are busy bagging her as we read...nothing in the past has given us reason to believe that it is even possible for the "real world" self to come along too.

--A

Usivius wrote:And, yah, I agree that his appearance is meant as a potential trap of despair for Linden.

No... Jeremiah's condition, his "autism", is the trap for Linden. That's what the Ranyhyn are telling her in the passage above.

OK, here's my take on Jeremiah: He's been in the Land since the beginning of the 2nd Chronicles, and was summoned accidently by the Ur-Viles who were attempting to summon Linden when Covenant and Linden were brought to the Land by Foul at the end of TWL prologue. (We know mistakes can be made in summonings. See: Hile Troy). The Ur-Viles wanted Linden to complete Vain's purpose. They didn't realize Foul was going to grab her along with Covenant, and when they had to stop their summoning (lest Foul realize what they were up to) they got Jeremiah by mistake. Subsequently they tended to the boy's injuries and protected him from the Sunbane, without quite knowing what to do with him (or maybe they did come up with a plan). This could explain why the Elohim foresaw Linden in the Land but not Covenant: they could see the Ur-Viles' intentions, but not Foul's since Foul surpasses them while the Ur-Viles, however unnatural, are part of the Land and do not escape their perception. This could explain also Foul's attempt to destroy the Ur-Viles in WGW: not because they made Vain as Linden speculated (he's always known about their breeding program after all, even helped them along), but because he found out about Jeremiah and they refused to give the boy up, ultimately fleeing into the future via a caesure (hence keeping Jeremiah's age congruent with his real world age). As for his real-world affliction, it's a sort of catatonia induced by the absence of his conscious mind: he's a "husk" as Roger calls him.

I think SRD's recent answer in the GI sheds some disproves your theory, Aleksandr.

3) In "Covenant," preserving the physical continuity of the "real world" has always been an important dimension of what I'm trying to do. Hence the difference in the rate at which time passes in the two worlds. Hence also the fact that no one gets to *stay* in the Land without dying in the "real world" (although I suppose that some form of permanent coma might be a viable alternative).

Well, to take up the other side of the argument, the autism could be a form of permanent coma...but I don't like the theory anyway.

--A

I'd be very dissapointed if the "Jeremiah was in the Land the whole time" theory turned out to be true. Jeremiah is there ... he responds to Linden, he builds with his blocks, he even has a job making toys. Limited, damaged, but there. And there's good clues that he's connected to the Land somehow, by the author's own words. I just don't think it's possible that he's been alive, fully alive, in the Land, for 3500 years.

I think anything other than the most tenuous of connections woudl be overdoing it myself.

--A

Froggis0 wrote:I was reading through the last few chapters of Runes today to get a bit more information on that damned Mahdoubt, and I noticed something I missed the first time through:

As the Master's mount pounded the dirt, the boy waved his arms, urging the horse to run faster, and shouted encouragement to the other riders.
Even from so far away, Linden could see that his eyes were afire with excitement.

It looks like Jeremiah has been cured of his autism. How could that have happened? Didn't the Land lose the healing abilities it had when Covenant first arrived? And didn't the Despiser have him? Maybe the Despiser himself did it? I'm eager to see how Jeremiah acts in Fatal Revenant, and where this may lead later on.

Perhaps this has been defined elsewhere but "autism" is not an acquired condition but a developmental disorder; IIRC Jeremiah became that way following the events in the woods in the 2nd chronicles; his conditiona sounds far more like a trauma induced catatonia.

It may sound like splitting hairs (that is what we do here), but the fact that he has a condition rather than being a certain way, is relevant to the question. TC's condition was healed in the land, but his fingers did not grow back, nor Hile Troy's eyes. Jeremiah seems to have been cured of his condition, for me, I doubt that the fantasy physics of the Land would deal with Autism with quite same consistency.

Do characters coming to the land have conditions cured in the process, or is it the healing abilities of of the land?

Also the healing abilities are only subdued within the shroud of Kevin's Dirt, there is no mention of where Jeremiah has come from. Perhaps he has been cured by Foul as part of some other plot scheme or even overture.

The duality part is intrigueing and makes me wonder if Jeremiah could be a bridge between the worlds, fully existing in both.

Wayfriend wrote:During the dissection, I discovered this passage. I believe it sheds a lot of light on Jeremiah's "autism".

In [b]The Runes of The Earth[/b] was wrote:She saw Jeremiah's plight as Hyn and Hynyn wished her to see it: as if he were simultaneously herself occupied by a Raver and Thomas Covenant lost in the stasis imposed by the Elohim. She needed them back desperately, Covenant and her son. All of their lives depended on it: the Land depended on it. And so she reached-or would reach-into him with her health-sense, seeking the place where his mind still lived.

The Ranyhyn elicited it from her, shared it with her: a field of flowers under an immaculate sun, pristine with warmth and promises. Covenant and now Jeremiah met her there, or would meet her, both children again, and unharmed; capable of a child's love, happiness, joy. Yet the visions of the horserite were unutterably cruel; for when she reached out to Covenant and Jeremiah, trying to restore them with herself, the Worm of the World's End squirmed from Covenant's mouth, and her son's dear face seemed to break open and become vile, bitter as Despite.

Hyn and Hynyn would have been kinder to simply trample Linden under their hooves.

You have to view this through the filter of the Ranyhyn's vision. But it implies that Ravers and Elohim might be involved. There is at least one earlier passage where Jeremiah's condition is likened to Covenant's stasis as well.

It also is not the only passage that refers to Linden trying to heal Jeremiah, and the consequences.

There's lots to speculate on, but only one thing to conclude: Jeremiah's condition is a snare set by Lord Foul.

......and she gets them. Do the Ranyhyn play a part in this?

finn wrote:Do the Ranyhyn play a part in this?

The Ranyhyn seem to know all about Jeremiah. So they have to have some sort of part in it. See also the dissection chapter for Heedless in Rain - there's a good bit to be said about how the horserite was a lot like Linden's summonsing.