Kevin's Watch

I have just figured out why Thomas Covenant is tiltled ur Lord by the Haruchai: to distinguish ur Lord Covenant from Lord Foul; both halves of the same coin.

Another thing, after re-reading the Chronicles again, why isn't any of Covenant's family mentioned, as is the case with Linden, The First, Pitchwife, Honninscrave, etc.? Sure there is Joan Macht Covenant, Roger Covenant, but these are not as deeply explored as Linden's family, Pitchwife, the First, Cable Seadreamer, even the Merewives. It's almost as if ur Lord Covenant Created himself.

Roger, over and out.

I think SRD explored each character's past deep enough to show who they were. In TC's case, that meant exploring his leprosy and situation with Joan/Roger. In Linden's case he had to go into the past further to her parents as that's what made her who she was at the time of the story.

Just a guess

Agreed. Covenant's family are not relevent to the story.

... until recently.

Do you think the Hauchai suspect Covenant is Lord Foul?

I thought it was the Lords who named him Ur-Lord.

The deeper background of Covenant's family or upbringing wasn't relevant to the story of the first Chronicles. In fact, it isn't really relevant to any of the characters in the first Chrons (except that for some strange reason we do get a good deal of information about High Lord Elena's biological father ) Even in the cases where we have multiple generations (Trell/Atiaran/Lena, Variol/Tamarantha/Mhoram) their pasts aren't relevant to the tale. We do learn a little about Atiaran, but that's about her own past struggles and "failure" at the Loresraat and is needed to explain how she knows about white gold, etc. And we get the story of Trell's courtship, but that was more to illuminate for us the beauty of how people truly love and respect each other in the Land.

Notice that all the characters you mentioned whose pasts are explored are from the 2nd Chronicles. I suspect that also reflects SRD's changing priorities and interests in his own growth and maturity, and in that of the people around him.

Wayfriend wrote:... until recently.

Do you think the Hauchai suspect Covenant is Lord Foul?

No, I don't think the Haruchai suspect Covenant to be Foul. What I am saying is that both Lord Foul and ur Lord Covenant both bear the title of Lord; different halves of the same coin.

And anyway, Covenant has often said that Lord Foul is simply his Dark side. And Linden's too, both 'sharing the same dream.'

The title of Ur may be to alike or similair to a particular position.
Where Kevin and Foul were reconized Lords. Thomas Covenant
didn't go thru the rites of becoming a Lord. But he had an ability or power that position him into a statue
or was elevated to an equal position like a Lord.

Like the Viles and the Ur Viles. Similair in nature but different in makeup.
It was in the first book that the Lords gave him the title, after he showed them the white gold.

Ur Dead wrote:The title of Ur may be to alike or similair to a particular position.
Where Kevin and Foul were reconized Lords. Thomas Covenant
didn't go thru the rites of becoming a Lord. But he had an ability or power that position him into a statue
or was elevated to an equal position like a Lord.

Like the Viles and the Ur Viles. Similair in nature but different in makeup.
It was in the first book that the Lords gave him the title, after he showed them the white gold.

I'm pretty sure it was Bannor who first entitled Covenant ur Lord (I've only been able to borrow the First Chronicles so far, but I've got the rest.)

High Lord Prothal first named Covenant ur-Lord after Covenant revealed the white gold hidden on the patch of clingor on his chest.

variol son wrote:High Lord Prothal first named Covenant ur-Lord after Covenant revealed the white gold hidden on the patch of clingor on his chest.

You're right! I just found the passage. Still, it doesn't stop the fact that Covenant and Foul both bear similar titles. I think they are ying and yang to each other. Which is basically also Covenant's opinion.

Viearus wrote:Still, it doesn't stop the fact that Covenant and Foul both bear similar titles. I think they are ying and yang to each other. Which is basically also Covenant's opinion.

Agreed, but how is Covenant and Foul bearing the name of "Lord" different from any of the other Lords?

Its not recorded anywhere what Foul's alias was when he was on Kevin's council is it? I'm assuming he wasn't using the name "Foul the Despiser" at the time, might have given even Kevin reason to pause to think "maybe I shouldn't trust this guy"...

I've always read the "ur-" prefix to mean "above" or "successor to". Ur-viles succeed viles (via demondin). TC, by virtue of being the white gold wielder, is accorded a place of honour above that of the Lords - because they recognise he's more important to the Earth than they are, and want to honour that.

According to Wikipedia, the prefix "ur-" is a German prefix that means "first", "oldest" or "original" when used as a noun. It also can mean "Great" when used in conjunction with a relative, such as Great-grandmother. In a way, I think all of the definitions fit TC...by holding the White Gold, he surpasses any and all Lords before, including the Lord-Fatherer himself.

Mhorram's Revenge wrote:Its not recorded anywhere what Foul's alias was when he was on Kevin's council is it? I'm assuming he wasn't using the name "Foul the Despiser" at the time, might have given even Kevin reason to pause to think "maybe I shouldn't trust this guy"...

I don't think it is ever mentioned. However someone here suggested it might be a-Jeroth, i quite like that idea personally.

a-Jeroth seems plausible enough in some ways, but I don't really see Foul gratuitously re-using that name when concocting a false history to be spread by the Clave.

Ur Dead wrote:The title of Ur may be to alike or similair to a particular position.

That's how I've always interpreted it. Covenant was an honourary Lord in the sense that he was entitled to sit on the Council, but he didn't have the same status as a Lord. In prestige, his status was above theirs, but in practical matters and day-to-day affairs, he was totally out of the loop. So: ur-Lord - like a Lord, but not quite.

On the subject of Covenant's family: I hadn't actually noticed this until Gart brought it up, but I think he made a good point. Yes, Covenant's friends and other family may not have been directly relevant to the plot, but they must surely have been relevant to his isolation. Joan left him, and suddenly he was totally alone. Did he have no parents, siblings, close friends? No-one at all?

WolfMann63 wrote:According to Wikipedia, the prefix "ur-" is a German prefix that means "first", "oldest" or "original" when used as a noun. It also can mean "Great" when used in conjunction with a relative, such as Great-grandmother. In a way, I think all of the definitions fit TC...by holding the White Gold, he surpasses any and all Lords before, including the Lord-Fatherer himself.

In the Gradual Interview, Stephen R Donaldson wrote:Considering my background, it's a bit peculiar that I have in some sense misused the "ur-". Among English majors--at least of my generation--"ur-" denotes "original," but it connotes "hypothetical." It refers to an original which we believe to exist, but which we do not possess. I twisted that quite a bit with "ur-viles" and "ur-Lord," trying to suggest an artificial and possibly corrupt relationship.

(12/14/2005)

Wayfriend wrote:... until recently.

Do you think the Hauchai suspect Covenant is Lord Foul?

Well they definitely distrusted him up to the point of his encounter with Drool in LFB.

CovenantJr wrote:On the subject of Covenant's family: I hadn't actually noticed this until Gart brought it up, but I think he made a good point. Yes, Covenant's friends and other family may not have been directly relevant to the plot, but they must surely have been relevant to his isolation. Joan left him, and suddenly he was totally alone. Did he have no parents, siblings, close friends? No-one at all?

AFAIK, the story never mentions parents or family. The only reference to friends is a comment about "townspeople whose handshakes and homes had been known to him" (not an exact quote)... ie. all the people who were his friends in the town shunned him when he became a leper.

It may also be that these people were more interested in him because he was a successful author than truly being his friends. Other places in the story indicate that many of the townspeople are a bit superficial. Another (apparently hidden) reason why it was so hard for him to accept true friendship in the Land: If people only liked him because of his accomplishments (best-selling author; bearer of white gold), then even more reason to be suspicious.

I always got the impression that TC was an only child, mostly because when his backstory was explained with his two best sellars and a beautiful wife and baby boy, there was no mention whatsoever of any family, expect that which he had just aquired, Joan and erm.... Little TC. (:D)

As for Foul, I got a similar impression, though it had nothing to do with the "Lord" designation. I think of them being a sort of antithesis to each other, but on a different level than Foul/the Creator.