Kevin's Watch

It’s all about Snape.

There have been various arguments in favor of Snape here in the JKRowling forum. I re-read the series keeping Snape in mind and I think he’s evil. I think he’s playing Dumbledore and the Order. Here’s why….

From the very first moment Harry and Snape make their first eye contact, Snape gives Harry a look of hatred and Harry’s scar hurts. Later that very night Harry has a dream in which he is being strangled by Quirrell’s turban and Malfoy is there laughing and then Malfoy turns into Snape and Snape’s laugh turns into what we later know to be Harry’s memory of the murder of his parents. Is this foreshadowing? Snape causes Voldemort to kill Harry’s parents, Malfoy causes Snape to murder Dumbledore. Following this, Harry has his first actual encounter with Snape and Snape is incredibly mean to Harry. Harry has done nothing to Snape and Snape treats him with contempt and cruelty from day one. He also tries numerous times to get Harry in trouble if not expelled. If, as we are supposed to believe, Snape feels remorse about playing a part in having James and Lily murdered and the attempted murder of Harry, shouldn’t he act like he’s sorry? Is total animosity the behavior of someone who regrets his deed? The first hint we get about Snape’s motivations is when Dumbledore tells Harry that Snape and James hated each other and that James did something Snape could never forgive James for and that it was saving Snape’s life. Dumbledore also believes that this is why Snape worked to save Harry’s life his first year and that Dumbledore believes that would make Snape feel that he and James were even. This doesn’t make any sense. If Snape owed James a lifebond and then provided the motivation for Voldemort to murder James and Lily and try to murder Harry, then shouldn’t Snape be doubly indebted? We are later told by Snape that James only saved Snape from a potentially deadly joke that Sirius had instigated and it’s clear in this speech that Snape never felt any actual debt to James over this incident. It only served to fuel his hatred further. We later know that Dumbledore believes that inciting the murder of Harry’s parents is Snape’s single most regret. By Snape’s own admission this isn’t true. He refers to this when discussing his trustworthiness with Bellatrix and Narcissa. He says he spun Dumbledore a tale of deepest remorse.

Constantly throughout the series, Dumbledore’s trust of Snape is brought up over and over again. Whenever it is brought up, no matter what the logical arguments are about NOT trusting Snape, the discussion/argument is always finished with the assertion that if Dumbledore trusts Snape then they all should. On the flip side of this, by Dumbledore’s own admission he makes mistakes. He even admits to making a mistake in thinking that Snape can overcome his feelings about James when he assigns Snape the job of teaching Harry occlumency. Beyond the fact that Dumbledore’s trust is continually brought up and questioned there are a few other incidents that address his trust. When Dumbledore vouches for Snape at the trial of Igor Karkaroff, Moody gives Dumbledore a look of deep skepticism. The real Moody doesn’t think Snape is trustworthy. Ron sides with Harry in saying that Dumbledore is cracked to trust Snape. Sirius agrees that both arguments for and against Snape have merit and says that Snape is clever enough to keep himself out of trouble. Furthermore Sirius says that while Dumbledore trusts Snape, Dumbledore also trusts where a lot of other people wouldn’t. Sirius also says that he can’t see Dumbledore letting Snape teach if Snape ever worked for Voldemort, but Dumbledore did exactly that. Snape was definitely a Death Eater at one time. Then the biggest piece of evidence so far is Snape’s answers to Bella’s trust questions.

Quote: “I have played my part well,” said Snape. “And you overlook Dumbledore’s greatest weakness: He has to believe the best of people. I spun him a tale of deepest remorse when I joined his staff, fresh from my Death Eater days, and he embraced me with open arms –“

Finally, when everyone from the Order finds out that Dumbledore trusted Snape because he believed that Snape was remorseful over James and Lily’s death, everyone is aghast that Dumbledore could have bought such a crappy pile of bull.

Later in Snape’s justification conversation with Bella, Snape says that Dumbledore has been a great wizard but he is getting old and slow. Note that Snape is speaking of Dumbledore in the past tense during this part of the exchange. There are some other interesting things in this section of the book which point at Snape being on the side of Voldemort. Peter Pettigrew is living at Snape’s house to help Snape with something Snape is working on. What is it they are up to? It can’t be anything to do with the school or with helping the Order. Pettigrew and Snape hate each other and Pettigrew is obviously on the side of Voldemort. Draco has the plans at Hogwarts covered. Snape already knows of the plan to have Draco kill Dumbledore. Snape takes the Unbreakable Vow to insure that Dumbledore’s death will come about in one way or another. Also in Snape’s “evidence” to Bella, he brings up that the Dark Lord has asked Snape every one of Bella’s questions and is satisfied with the answers. He certainly has an answer for everything. This brings up the point that Voldemort is by Snape’s own admission, the greatest legilimens the world has ever known. Dumbledore is not likely to use legilimency against Snape to test his tale of deep remorse. Voldemort by his very nature would definitely use legilemency on Snape without hesitation. This tells me that it’s far more likely for Snape to be fooling Dumbledore than Voldemort. Snape also says that Voldemort ordered him to be at Hogwarts. This fits with Snape’s supposed conversion before the fall of Voldemort and is likely since we know that Voldemort has spies everywhere and he obviously wants something from the school and someone to spy on Dumbledore. It all makes sense.

On the subject of occlumency/legilimency I find some interest in intent/result of the lessons given Harry by Snape. Snape doesn’t tell Harry how to resist. He also attacks Harry well before Harry has a chance to be ready. He also tells Harry that he should empty himself of emotion but purposefully riles Harry up each and every time, just before attacking. According to Snape, the way to repel legilimency is to clear yourself of emotion BUT the only time Harry has any success resisting is when he becomes extremely emotionally charged and super protective of his memories. The Dark Lord is most often in Harry’s mind when Harry is sleeping, isn’t that when he is most relaxed, the least emotionally charged? Isn’t becoming devoid of emotion sort of like meditating? The dreams and scar prickling and reading of Voldemort’s emotions becomes much more regular and much more extreme directly coinciding with Snape’s lessons. Where is the evidence that Snape actually IS trying to help Harry? He certainly hasn’t given Harry any real idea of how to do it, Snape simply has been using the sessions to berate, taunt and torture Harry, if not see what else is in Harry’s mind. Dumbledore gives the task of teaching Harry to Snape, full well knowing that Snape hated James and has issues with Harry and then he let the lessons go on unsupervised and without checking in with Harry to see how they are going. By Dumbledore’s own admission he doesn’t want Voldemort to read too much into his relationship with Harry and Snape knows this. Snape therefore has no accountability to Dumbledore, why wouldn’t he get away with opening Harry’s mind further to the Dark Lord. Here’s something else. Harry has been having dreams of the corridor since the summer. What if Voldemort knew about the connection all along and has been planting that dream? It’s not like Voldemort is sending Nagini down the hallway on a regular basis. Snape seems to know a lot about what the Dark Lord knows and doesn’t know about the connection.

“How do you know?” said Harry urgently. “Is this just Dumbledore guessing, or –“

“I told you,” said Snape, rigid in his chair, his eyes slits, “to call me sir.”

“Yes sir,” said Harry impatiently, “but how do you know –“

“It is enough that we know,” said Snape repressively. “The important point is that the Dark Lord is now aware that you are gaining access to his thoughts and feelings. He has also deduced that the process is likely to work in reverse; that is to say, he has realized that he might be able to access your thoughts and feelings in return –“

“And he might try to make me do things?” asked Harry. “Sir.” He added hurriedly.

“He might,” said Snape sounding cold and unconcerned.

Just before this exchange and during the beginning of this exchange, Snape is furious. Is he furious because Dumbledore figured it out? Seems to me that the thought of Voldemort forcing Harry to do things calms Snape down out of his rage. Further, Snape mentions that he has heard that Harry has an aptitude for resisting the imperious curse. How did Snape find this out? Who knows of it other than the Gryffindor students in class that day, BC/Moody, Voldemort and the Death Eaters present just after Voldemort’s return to a full body? Which one told? In a later lesson, Snape pulls the dream about Rookwood from Harry’s memory. Snape gets very calculating when he sees this image. Snape then gets even nastier to Harry and they have a sort of argument. Is Snape afraid that Harry might see something that could expose his double agent status?


Some little moments that factor in are things like, why did Snape try to get past Fluffy? We know that Quirrell caused a diversion on Halloween night with the troll but Snape tries to get past Fluffy after that. He isn’t limping until some time after Halloween. Also, why was Snape trying to get the secret of Quirrell’s challenge out of him? Isn’t it possible that Snape wanted the stone for himself? Also, at the quiddich match against Hufflepuff in book one, Snape is obviously pissed off that despite his trying his best to penalize Gryffindor and help Hufflepuff, Gryffindor still wins, however he is disgusted enough to spit on the ground when he sees Dumbledore talking to Harry. What’s that about? In the second book, Snape repeatedly tries to get Harry expelled or punished. First the flying car incident, then he tries to get Harry suspended from Quiddich over Mrs. Norris being petrified. Also, when it comes out at the dueling match that Harry is a parselmouth, rather than freak out like everyone else, Snape just gives Harry a very shrewd and calculating look. What is that about? In PoA, after Sirius slashes up the fat lady and they are done searching the castle, Snape reminds Dumbledore about a conversation they had concerning Lupin and when Dumbledore shrugs off Snape’s concerns Snape gives Dumbledore’s back a look of deep resentment. Snape is also very nosy about finding Harry in Lupin’s office having tea. I think it is because Snape doesn’t want anyone to help Harry. When Snape first finds the Marauder’s Map he says, “Professor Severus Snape, master of this school, commands you to yield the information you conceal!” Master of the school? Slip of the tongue? And how much does Snape know about the map and it’s makers? He obviously knows something and is trying to provoke Lupin into revealing information. How did he come by his knowledge? Seems to me that he may have come to it indirectly through Pettigrew.

When Snape sneaks into the shrieking shack, the door is heard creaking before Sirius and Lupin explain about Lupin being a werewolf and them all becoming animagi and the map etc. He then interrupts and refused to hear anything further. He is described as having a mad glint in his eyes and he is beyond reason and threatening to call the dementors before anyone else can come. Is this unreasonable anger and madness because he doesn’t want Peter to be found? Is this because Peter knows that Snape was ultimately the catalyst for the Potter’s murder? What’s up with that folks? Once all the hullabaloo is over, Snape tells a very biased and incomplete version of the events to Fudge and insists that Harry, Ron and Hermione are under a confundus charm several times. He manipulates the situation purposefully so that Fudge will not believe Dumbledore and finally has a meltdown in which he screams so much at Hermione that even Fudge is taken aback. Snape again tries to get Harry expelled from Hogwarts during this exchange with Fudge. After Fudge’s departure, Snape reminds Dumbledore that Sirius tried to kill him. Why bother? Is he worried that he might have gone too far and Dumbledore is suspicious? After it is found that Sirius has escaped, Snape goes in to a spittle flying rage and accuses Harry of having something to do with Sirius’s escape. Again I question why Snape hates Harry so much. Hating him this much because he was teased by Harry’s father seems a bit extreme. Could it be that he resents Harry for being the catalyst for the downfall of the Dark Lord and that Snape is afraid to be blamed for Voldemort’s downfall and in danger from the other death eaters if they find out that Snape is the one who sent Voldemort to the Potter’s house in the first place? Snape also develops a nervous twitch in his mouth and can’t stop flexing his fingers when he sees Harry after Sirius’s escape. Seems a bit excessive to me. When Snape gets no satisfaction from trying to get Harry expelled he lets slip about Lupin being a werewolf, insuring that at least one of Harry’s potential friend/mentor is no longer able to help Harry.

In GoF there is an exchange between BC/Moody and Snape that is very interesting. When Harry drops the egg and Snape and Moody come looking, they have this to say to one another:

“Dumbledore happens to trust me,” said Snape through clenched teeth. “I refuse to believe he gave you orders to search my office!”

“Course Dumbledore trusts you,” growled Moody. “He’s a trusting man, isn’t he? Believes in second chances.”

Just after this exchange, Snape sees the map and realizes that Harry is probably around in his invisibility cloak. This enrages Snape and he goes crazy trying to feel around for Harry. BC/Moody tries to stop Snape and then threatens to go to Dumbledore about Snape being out to get Harry. Snape does some quick backpedaling but when BC/Moody continues to call Snape on it, Snape backs off. Why is Snape so anxious not to have his hatred for Harry brought to Dumbledore’s attention that he allows himself to be bullied?

Why is Snape so adamant about preventing Harry from seeing Dumbledore after the Crouch incident? He won’t even listen to what Harry has to say and pretty much refuses Harry access to Dumbledore’s office. What is the point of that? Just to torture Harry further or does he want to stall things so that BC/Moody has time to get down there and do away with the body? BC/Moody says that Snape told him where to find them, what if Snape did actually tell BC/Moody and is in league with BC/Moody at this point? Chew on this for a moment….what if BC/Moody found evidence that Snape is still practicing the dark arts when searching Snape’s office and then later approached him? Snape already knows the mark is getting stronger and that the return of Voldemort is imminent. He purposefully avoids Karkaroff. Is this because he knows that BC/Moody is BC and he’s helping him and doesn’t want to be associated with someone who was a blatant traitor to the death eaters?

In HBP, Snape has a conversation with Malfoy about Malfoy’s plans. Snape tells Malfoy about the unbreakable vow. Snape also tries to use Legilimency on Malfoy and yet Malfoy is able to repel Snape easily. So lets get this straight. Harry has already shown an aptitude for the skills necessary, an instinctive aptitude and he can’t learn it in many lessons with Snape. Malfoy learns it well enough to repel Snape after learning it over the summer. Hmm….this further makes me think that Snape wasn’t trying to teach Harry at all. Furthermore, when Malfoy tells Dumbledore about Snape making the vow to Narcissa, Dumbledore responds with, “Of course he would tell you that.” This implies that Dumbledore thinks that Snape lied to Malfoy. Why doesn’t Dumbledore know about the unbreakable vow? Dumbledore pleads with Snape, Snape looks at Dumbledore with hatred and revulsion then kills Dumbledore. I have a hard time believing that Dumbledore would have wanted Snape to kill him. What is accomplished? Malfoy is still going to be a death eater, Snape is now outed as a death eater and Dumbledore is dead people, dead. Snape only refrains from killing Harry because the Dark Lord wants Harry for himself. Snape is obeying the Dark Lord. Snape is not trying to help Harry. He is messing with his mind. That is what I think…..

Now you all have at…..

Cameraman Jenn wrote:It’s all about Snape.

:::snip:::

Cameraman Jenn wrote:Now you all have at…..

:::heavy sigh mixed with extreme emotion:::

Jenn, this post convinced me that it was finally time to offer Beorn his own username here on the Watch, and it appears as though the username 'Beorn' is available, if he wants it. So, I showed him this post, and asked him if he wanted to have his own name to comment on it.

I think the length of the post overwhelmed him...

He told me you make some very good points, but that he has also heard very good arguments that Snape is still a double agent for the Order. I asked him if he wanted to take each point of yours one at a time, and he still turned the offer down.

I am sorry. I tried...

:::I voted that you're crazy, but I have no defense of my opinion:::

Menolly, apparently everyone thinks I am crazy. I'm the only one who voted Snape is evil. I seriously tried to believe him good and did the re-read trying to find things to make me think him good but all I could come up with was weak in my opinion. I also don't see how he's going to get back in with the order, short of killing Voldemort, after having killed Dumbledore. It's too bad Beorn isn't interested in giving me his opinions because I would love love love to hear them.

Beorn, you don't have to address all the issues, pick one or two and let me hear it! I've been seriously impressed with some of the responses that Pam posted for you. Please! Please! Please!

Cameraman Jenn wrote:It’s all about Snape.

There have been various arguments in favor of Snape here in the JKRowling forum. I re-read the series keeping Snape in mind and I think he’s evil. I think he’s playing Dumbledore and the Order. Here’s why….

From the very first moment Harry and Snape make their first eye contact, Snape gives Harry a look of hatred and Harry’s scar hurts. Later that very night Harry has a dream in which he is being strangled by Quirrell’s turban and Malfoy is there laughing and then Malfoy turns into Snape and Snape’s laugh turns into what we later know to be Harry’s memory of the murder of his parents. Is this foreshadowing? Snape causes Voldemort to kill Harry’s parents, Malfoy causes Snape to murder Dumbledore. Following this, Harry has his first actual encounter with Snape and Snape is incredibly mean to Harry. Harry has done nothing to Snape and Snape treats him with contempt and cruelty from day one. He also tries numerous times to get Harry in trouble if not expelled. If, as we are supposed to believe, Snape feels remorse about playing a part in having James and Lily murdered and the attempted murder of Harry, shouldn’t he act like he’s sorry? Is total animosity the behavior of someone who regrets his deed? The first hint we get about Snape’s motivations is when Dumbledore tells Harry that Snape and James hated each other and that James did something Snape could never forgive James for and that it was saving Snape’s life. Dumbledore also believes that this is why Snape worked to save Harry’s life his first year and that Dumbledore believes that would make Snape feel that he and James were even. This doesn’t make any sense. If Snape owed James a lifebond and then provided the motivation for Voldemort to murder James and Lily and try to murder Harry, then shouldn’t Snape be doubly indebted? We are later told by Snape that James only saved Snape from a potentially deadly joke that Sirius had instigated and it’s clear in this speech that Snape never felt any actual debt to James over this incident. It only served to fuel his hatred further. We later know that Dumbledore believes that inciting the murder of Harry’s parents is Snape’s single most regret. By Snape’s own admission this isn’t true. He refers to this when discussing his trustworthiness with Bellatrix and Narcissa. He says he spun Dumbledore a tale of deepest remorse.

Constantly throughout the series, Dumbledore’s trust of Snape is brought up over and over again. Whenever it is brought up, no matter what the logical arguments are about NOT trusting Snape, the discussion/argument is always finished with the assertion that if Dumbledore trusts Snape then they all should. On the flip side of this, by Dumbledore’s own admission he makes mistakes. He even admits to making a mistake in thinking that Snape can overcome his feelings about James when he assigns Snape the job of teaching Harry occlumency. Beyond the fact that Dumbledore’s trust is continually brought up and questioned there are a few other incidents that address his trust. When Dumbledore vouches for Snape at the trial of Igor Karkaroff, Moody gives Dumbledore a look of deep skepticism. The real Moody doesn’t think Snape is trustworthy. Ron sides with Harry in saying that Dumbledore is cracked to trust Snape. Sirius agrees that both arguments for and against Snape have merit and says that Snape is clever enough to keep himself out of trouble. Furthermore Sirius says that while Dumbledore trusts Snape, Dumbledore also trusts where a lot of other people wouldn’t. Sirius also says that he can’t see Dumbledore letting Snape teach if Snape ever worked for Voldemort, but Dumbledore did exactly that. Snape was definitely a Death Eater at one time. Then the biggest piece of evidence so far is Snape’s answers to Bella’s trust questions.

Quote: “I have played my part well,” said Snape. “And you overlook Dumbledore’s greatest weakness: He has to believe the best of people. I spun him a tale of deepest remorse when I joined his staff, fresh from my Death Eater days, and he embraced me with open arms –“

Finally, when everyone from the Order finds out that Dumbledore trusted Snape because he believed that Snape was remorseful over James and Lily’s death, everyone is aghast that Dumbledore could have bought such a crappy pile of bull.

Later in Snape’s justification conversation with Bella, Snape says that Dumbledore has been a great wizard but he is getting old and slow. Note that Snape is speaking of Dumbledore in the past tense during this part of the exchange. There are some other interesting things in this section of the book which point at Snape being on the side of Voldemort. Peter Pettigrew is living at Snape’s house to help Snape with something Snape is working on. What is it they are up to? It can’t be anything to do with the school or with helping the Order. Pettigrew and Snape hate each other and Pettigrew is obviously on the side of Voldemort. Draco has the plans at Hogwarts covered. Snape already knows of the plan to have Draco kill Dumbledore. Snape takes the Unbreakable Vow to insure that Dumbledore’s death will come about in one way or another. Also in Snape’s “evidence” to Bella, he brings up that the Dark Lord has asked Snape every one of Bella’s questions and is satisfied with the answers. He certainly has an answer for everything. This brings up the point that Voldemort is by Snape’s own admission, the greatest legilimens the world has ever known. Dumbledore is not likely to use legilimency against Snape to test his tale of deep remorse. Voldemort by his very nature would definitely use legilemency on Snape without hesitation. This tells me that it’s far more likely for Snape to be fooling Dumbledore than Voldemort. Snape also says that Voldemort ordered him to be at Hogwarts. This fits with Snape’s supposed conversion before the fall of Voldemort and is likely since we know that Voldemort has spies everywhere and he obviously wants something from the school and someone to spy on Dumbledore. It all makes sense.

On the subject of occlumency/legilimency I find some interest in intent/result of the lessons given Harry by Snape. Snape doesn’t tell Harry how to resist. He also attacks Harry well before Harry has a chance to be ready. He also tells Harry that he should empty himself of emotion but purposefully riles Harry up each and every time, just before attacking. According to Snape, the way to repel legilimency is to clear yourself of emotion BUT the only time Harry has any success resisting is when he becomes extremely emotionally charged and super protective of his memories. The Dark Lord is most often in Harry’s mind when Harry is sleeping, isn’t that when he is most relaxed, the least emotionally charged? Isn’t becoming devoid of emotion sort of like meditating? The dreams and scar prickling and reading of Voldemort’s emotions becomes much more regular and much more extreme directly coinciding with Snape’s lessons. Where is the evidence that Snape actually IS trying to help Harry? He certainly hasn’t given Harry any real idea of how to do it, Snape simply has been using the sessions to berate, taunt and torture Harry, if not see what else is in Harry’s mind. Dumbledore gives the task of teaching Harry to Snape, full well knowing that Snape hated James and has issues with Harry and then he let the lessons go on unsupervised and without checking in with Harry to see how they are going. By Dumbledore’s own admission he doesn’t want Voldemort to read too much into his relationship with Harry and Snape knows this. Snape therefore has no accountability to Dumbledore, why wouldn’t he get away with opening Harry’s mind further to the Dark Lord. Here’s something else. Harry has been having dreams of the corridor since the summer. What if Voldemort knew about the connection all along and has been planting that dream? It’s not like Voldemort is sending Nagini down the hallway on a regular basis. Snape seems to know a lot about what the Dark Lord knows and doesn’t know about the connection.

“How do you know?” said Harry urgently. “Is this just Dumbledore guessing, or –“

“I told you,” said Snape, rigid in his chair, his eyes slits, “to call me sir.”

“Yes sir,” said Harry impatiently, “but how do you know –“

“It is enough that we know,” said Snape repressively. “The important point is that the Dark Lord is now aware that you are gaining access to his thoughts and feelings. He has also deduced that the process is likely to work in reverse; that is to say, he has realized that he might be able to access your thoughts and feelings in return –“

“And he might try to make me do things?” asked Harry. “Sir.” He added hurriedly.

“He might,” said Snape sounding cold and unconcerned.

Just before this exchange and during the beginning of this exchange, Snape is furious. Is he furious because Dumbledore figured it out? Seems to me that the thought of Voldemort forcing Harry to do things calms Snape down out of his rage. Further, Snape mentions that he has heard that Harry has an aptitude for resisting the imperious curse. How did Snape find this out? Who knows of it other than the Gryffindor students in class that day, BC/Moody, Voldemort and the Death Eaters present just after Voldemort’s return to a full body? Which one told? In a later lesson, Snape pulls the dream about Rookwood from Harry’s memory. Snape gets very calculating when he sees this image. Snape then gets even nastier to Harry and they have a sort of argument. Is Snape afraid that Harry might see something that could expose his double agent status?


Some little moments that factor in are things like, why did Snape try to get past Fluffy? We know that Quirrell caused a diversion on Halloween night with the troll but Snape tries to get past Fluffy after that. He isn’t limping until some time after Halloween. Also, why was Snape trying to get the secret of Quirrell’s challenge out of him? Isn’t it possible that Snape wanted the stone for himself? Also, at the quiddich match against Hufflepuff in book one, Snape is obviously pissed off that despite his trying his best to penalize Gryffindor and help Hufflepuff, Gryffindor still wins, however he is disgusted enough to spit on the ground when he sees Dumbledore talking to Harry. What’s that about? In the second book, Snape repeatedly tries to get Harry expelled or punished. First the flying car incident, then he tries to get Harry suspended from Quiddich over Mrs. Norris being petrified. Also, when it comes out at the dueling match that Harry is a parselmouth, rather than freak out like everyone else, Snape just gives Harry a very shrewd and calculating look. What is that about? In PoA, after Sirius slashes up the fat lady and they are done searching the castle, Snape reminds Dumbledore about a conversation they had concerning Lupin and when Dumbledore shrugs off Snape’s concerns Snape gives Dumbledore’s back a look of deep resentment. Snape is also very nosy about finding Harry in Lupin’s office having tea. I think it is because Snape doesn’t want anyone to help Harry. When Snape first finds the Marauder’s Map he says, “Professor Severus Snape, master of this school, commands you to yield the information you conceal!” Master of the school? Slip of the tongue? And how much does Snape know about the map and it’s makers? He obviously knows something and is trying to provoke Lupin into revealing information. How did he come by his knowledge? Seems to me that he may have come to it indirectly through Pettigrew.

When Snape sneaks into the shrieking shack, the door is heard creaking before Sirius and Lupin explain about Lupin being a werewolf and them all becoming animagi and the map etc. He then interrupts and refused to hear anything further. He is described as having a mad glint in his eyes and he is beyond reason and threatening to call the dementors before anyone else can come. Is this unreasonable anger and madness because he doesn’t want Peter to be found? Is this because Peter knows that Snape was ultimately the catalyst for the Potter’s murder? What’s up with that folks? Once all the hullabaloo is over, Snape tells a very biased and incomplete version of the events to Fudge and insists that Harry, Ron and Hermione are under a confundus charm several times. He manipulates the situation purposefully so that Fudge will not believe Dumbledore and finally has a meltdown in which he screams so much at Hermione that even Fudge is taken aback. Snape again tries to get Harry expelled from Hogwarts during this exchange with Fudge. After Fudge’s departure, Snape reminds Dumbledore that Sirius tried to kill him. Why bother? Is he worried that he might have gone too far and Dumbledore is suspicious? After it is found that Sirius has escaped, Snape goes in to a spittle flying rage and accuses Harry of having something to do with Sirius’s escape. Again I question why Snape hates Harry so much. Hating him this much because he was teased by Harry’s father seems a bit extreme. Could it be that he resents Harry for being the catalyst for the downfall of the Dark Lord and that Snape is afraid to be blamed for Voldemort’s downfall and in danger from the other death eaters if they find out that Snape is the one who sent Voldemort to the Potter’s house in the first place? Snape also develops a nervous twitch in his mouth and can’t stop flexing his fingers when he sees Harry after Sirius’s escape. Seems a bit excessive to me. When Snape gets no satisfaction from trying to get Harry expelled he lets slip about Lupin being a werewolf, insuring that at least one of Harry’s potential friend/mentor is no longer able to help Harry.

In GoF there is an exchange between BC/Moody and Snape that is very interesting. When Harry drops the egg and Snape and Moody come looking, they have this to say to one another:

“Dumbledore happens to trust me,” said Snape through clenched teeth. “I refuse to believe he gave you orders to search my office!”

“Course Dumbledore trusts you,” growled Moody. “He’s a trusting man, isn’t he? Believes in second chances.”

Just after this exchange, Snape sees the map and realizes that Harry is probably around in his invisibility cloak. This enrages Snape and he goes crazy trying to feel around for Harry. BC/Moody tries to stop Snape and then threatens to go to Dumbledore about Snape being out to get Harry. Snape does some quick backpedaling but when BC/Moody continues to call Snape on it, Snape backs off. Why is Snape so anxious not to have his hatred for Harry brought to Dumbledore’s attention that he allows himself to be bullied?

Why is Snape so adamant about preventing Harry from seeing Dumbledore after the Crouch incident? He won’t even listen to what Harry has to say and pretty much refuses Harry access to Dumbledore’s office. What is the point of that? Just to torture Harry further or does he want to stall things so that BC/Moody has time to get down there and do away with the body? BC/Moody says that Snape told him where to find them, what if Snape did actually tell BC/Moody and is in league with BC/Moody at this point? Chew on this for a moment….what if BC/Moody found evidence that Snape is still practicing the dark arts when searching Snape’s office and then later approached him? Snape already knows the mark is getting stronger and that the return of Voldemort is imminent. He purposefully avoids Karkaroff. Is this because he knows that BC/Moody is BC and he’s helping him and doesn’t want to be associated with someone who was a blatant traitor to the death eaters?

In HBP, Snape has a conversation with Malfoy about Malfoy’s plans. Snape tells Malfoy about the unbreakable vow. Snape also tries to use Legilimency on Malfoy and yet Malfoy is able to repel Snape easily. So lets get this straight. Harry has already shown an aptitude for the skills necessary, an instinctive aptitude and he can’t learn it in many lessons with Snape. Malfoy learns it well enough to repel Snape after learning it over the summer. Hmm….this further makes me think that Snape wasn’t trying to teach Harry at all. Furthermore, when Malfoy tells Dumbledore about Snape making the vow to Narcissa, Dumbledore responds with, “Of course he would tell you that.” This implies that Dumbledore thinks that Snape lied to Malfoy. Why doesn’t Dumbledore know about the unbreakable vow? Dumbledore pleads with Snape, Snape looks at Dumbledore with hatred and revulsion then kills Dumbledore. I have a hard time believing that Dumbledore would have wanted Snape to kill him. What is accomplished? Malfoy is still going to be a death eater, Snape is now outed as a death eater and Dumbledore is dead people, dead. Snape only refrains from killing Harry because the Dark Lord wants Harry for himself. Snape is obeying the Dark Lord. Snape is not trying to help Harry. He is messing with his mind. That is what I think…..

Now you all have at…..

Excellent post Jen, I'll see if i can tackle some of this.

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The main point in your first argument is that if Snape was truly sorry for his deed, he wouldn't have hated Harry from the outset. I think you have to consider just how deep Snape's hatrid is for James. For ten years, Snape has had to hear about the miraculous Harry Potter, the boy who lived. By the time Harry gets to school, Snape hates everything that reminds him of James. Harry looks like James, is the most famous wizard in the world and has been protected by Dumbledore in every way imaginable. Harry also has the deep green eyes of his mother, I fully believed that Snape loved Lily. Harry having those eyes, the eyes of the woman Snape loved on the face that looks so much like the man that he hated so passionately makes him despise Harry. In book one the key revelation for me is Snape shouting counter curses to keep Harry from falling off the broom. In this situation he could have easily let Harry fall off that broom, Dumbledore was not there, Snape is good enough at lying that he could have made him believe he did all he could. As far as his admission to Narcissa about weaving a tale of deep remorse, there is a lot more to it than that i think. I'll dive into that a bit more further down.

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Your points here, including Sirius and the dialogue between Snape and Bellatrix, are compelling. Here is the thing though, Snape is a stellar Occlumens. If you were a double agent and being berated by one of the closest minions of a powerful enemy, you would say what you needed to in order to waylay them. Even after that conversation, Bellatrix still doesn't believe him and only the unbreakable vow catches her off guard. Also, this is the first time in 6 books we see an unbreakable vow, its huge, don't overlook why Jo would introduce this particular magical enchantment here. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I think Snape made some form of unbreakable vow to Dumbledore before he taught at Hogwarts. Dumbledore is brilliant and often knows way more than anyone else does. I don't think he needs to blindly believe that people are good. He's not beyond using Legilimency because we saw him do that in book 5 on Kreacher. For me, it comes down to this. Do you think Dumbledore, who has planned countless protections for Harry since he was brought to the Dursley's, would allow his plans for Harry's survival and victory over Voldemort to be so easily thwarted by his blind faith in a former death eater...there is something huge we don't know, because otherwise none of the rest of it makes sense.

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Where does it say exactly that Wormtail is there to help Snape with something he's working on? Last time i read HBP i remember it saying that Wormtail was there to assist Snape, but I took that to mean that Voldemort was getting Wormtail out of his hair and Snape used him as a servant. Wormtail is basically outlived his usefulness, he's not a great wizard, too much of a coward to fight the order, i can't see a situation where Snape would actually require his help.

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Your points here are valid, I think that Snape enjoyed tormenting Harry way too much to actually help him with Occlumency. I believe you missed something though, Voldemort did plant that dream. In the MOM Malfoy told Harry that Voldemort wondered why he didn't come sooner when he'd showed him where the prophecy was. I'm pretty sure Snape knew what Voldemort knew about the connection as he was his top spy and in Voldemort's most inner circle. That fits though with the double agent role, he would have access to the most secret things of both Voldemort and Dumbledore as the members of the Death Eaters and the Order despise him. In your 5th set of points you mention that only the gryffindors know about Harry's skill at resisting the imperius curse, its likely that fake Moody would have told this to Dumbledore, it would have brought him further into Dumbledore's confidences and not hurt his plans to get harry through the portkey. As far as Harry revealing that Snape is a double agent, i doubt harry could find anything on Snape, he's not a legilimens.

I'm going to tackle the rest of your post in a bit.[/b]

Storm, your explanation of why Snape hates Harry is quite excellent. I am not sold on the idea of Lily being Snape's love interest though. As far as Snape shouting countercurses, well, I looked it up and he was muttering under his breath, quietly enough that when Hermione gets close enough to light Snape's robes on fire, she still can't make out what he's saying. All we have to go on for sure is Snape's word. Furthermore, Snape says outright in HBP, again referencing the conversation with Bella that he was biding his time to see what Harry was like, thinking that perhaps Harry was a new Dark Lord they could rally around. I agree that there MUST be more to the explanation of Dumbledore's trust if Snape turns out to be good, but if he doesn't...no further explanation is needed. Additionally, as you yourself said, Snape is a good liar and as per a comment by, I think, Lupin, Snape is a superb occlumens. I just don't understand why it is easier to fool Voldemort who CAN'T trust than it is to fool Dumbledore who wants only to trust. Furthermore, Dumbledore is wrong on more than one occasion.

Your points here, including Sirius and the dialogue between Snape and Bellatrix, are compelling. Here is the thing though, Snape is a stellar Occlumens.[/quote

He can lie to anyone. That's exactly my point.

Bellatrix still doesn't believe him and only the unbreakable vow catches her off guard.

Bella is bitter. She just spent ten years in Azkeban for supporting Voldemort. Snape didn't. She screwed up at the ministry. She is no longer Voldemort's favorite. Snape is now Voldemort's favorite. Bella is also taken aback when she finds out that Snape already knows of the plan.

"You know about the plan?" said Bellatrix, her fleeting expression of satisfaction replaced by a look of outrage. "You know?"

As far as Dumbledore knowing more than anyone else, well, keep your friend's close but your enemies closer comes to mind. What if Dumbledore knew all along Snape was a player? He lies to Snape in the end of PoA, denying Harry's involvement with Sirius's escape. Blatantly lies to Snape. If this is the case it argues even further for Snape being on the side of evil.

Where does it say exactly that Wormtail is there to help Snape with something he's working on? Last time i read HBP i remember it saying that Wormtail was there to assist Snape, but I took that to mean that Voldemort was getting Wormtail out of his hair and Snape used him as a servant. Wormtail is basically outlived his usefulness, he's not a great wizard, too much of a coward to fight the order, i can't see a situation where Snape would actually require his help.

You are right. It says clearly that Wormtail is there to assist Snape. However, Wormtail immediately tells Snape that he is not there to be Snape's servant. So what is he there for? Snape later tells Narcissa that if he didn't already know of the plan then Narcissa would be seriously betraying the Dark Lord. Obviously Narcissa and Bella are not going to be told what Snape and Wormtail are up to, right? When Snape tells Wormtail to get the drinks after this argument, Wormtail hesitates like he is about to argue further with Snape but then gives in. He's obviously hiding something IMHO.

I believe you missed something though, Voldemort did plant that dream. In the MOM Malfoy told Harry that Voldemort wondered why he didn't come sooner when he'd showed him where the prophecy was.

I always read that to mean that Voldemort planted the dream of Sirius being tortured. Not that Voldemort had planted the dream from the beginning.

I will willingly give you Dumbledore telling Snape that Harry has an aptitude for resisting the imperious curse via information supplied by BC/Moody. That makes perfect sense.

I didn't think I said anything about Harry revealing that Snape is a double agent except that perhaps Snape is afraid that through the connection of Harry and Voldemort, that might be revealed since so much other accurate information has passed through that connection. However, since you bring that up, Draco tells Dumbledore flat out that Snape is a double agent and that Snape has been playing Dumbledore for a fool AND Malfoy admits that the only reason he didn't let Snape help him is because Malfoy was afraid that Snape would steal all of his glory by killing Dumbledore.

The question is a little black and white, however I voted "not" evil. I think the truth is closer to him being tormented. He wants to be good, but his nature/upbringing, memories of tormented youth and pressure from Deatheaters is weighing on him. I think he is playing both sides right now, but at any given moment, honestly in his own mind, beleives his own loyalty on each side.
But, in the end, he will redeem himself...



So, no, you ar not crazy Jen, just have no faith my my Snape.

I will respond to this well-articulated and exceedingly well crafted argument later this week. Suffice to say, that out of general priniciple I have voted Jenn to be crazy...even BEFORE I read her arguments! Heh.

In all Siriusness (ha!), I promise to respond to this as I beleive Serverus needs defending!

Free Snape!

A Gunslinger wrote:I will respond to this well-articulated and exceedingly well crafted argument later this week. Suffice to say, that out of general priniciple I have voted Jenn to be crazy...even BEFORE I read her arguments! Heh.

In all Siriusness (ha!), I promise to respond to this as I beleive Serverus needs defending!

Free Snape!

Hear! Hear!!

I think, it would be a far bigger twist for JKR to pull out that Snape is really evil, and is not on the Order's side.

However, the way I read the books, I think Snape is just a complete creep, and a terrible person to entrust your children to be taught and influenced by, but, he is on the right side. I believe the reason he left Voldemort was because he simply wasn't as evil as he thought he was, and I think he took an Unbreakable Vow to protect Harry.

I vote Jenn is crazy, but she may be right, because as I said that's a much bigger twist, IMHO.

I've no idea if Snape is evil or not, but I do know that Jenn is crazy, so that's how I voted

I think Snape will save the day at the end of the last book.

This dumbledore trusting snape thing. If dumbledore had snape teach harry occlumency, he obviously knew snape was a good liar. Now, if you're dumbledore 11 years ago and snape tries to convince you that he's changed, knowing full well that he's the one who ratted out the potters, you know that he's a great liar, it only makes sense to me that you'd have something binding on snape, like an unbreakable vow. Otherwise, it seems very pointless to me and ends up being horrible writing. If for 6 books you write a character as being the badass of the good team, who could do things with a wand no one else even could dream of, how do you make him a victim of being too trusting and still have credibility as an author.

As for the the Voldy planting the memory, here's the exact quote from OOTP: "Dumbledore never told you? Well, this explains why you didn't come earlier, Potter, the Dark Lord wondered why you didn't come running when he showed you the place where it was hidden in your dreams. He thought natural curiosity would make you want to hear the exact wording..." p.786

I interpret this to mean that he'd been gradually showing harry the corridor all along.

I have FINALLY preordered my copy! ANd what's more, I have finally answered the insane prattling of my dear, dear friend Cameraman Jenn!

It’s all about Snape.

There have been various arguments in favor of Snape here in the JKRowling forum. I re-read the series keeping Snape in mind and I think he’s evil. I think he’s playing Dumbledore and the Order. Here’s why….

From the very first moment Harry and Snape make their first eye contact, Snape gives Harry a look of hatred and Harry’s scar hurts. Later that very night Harry has a dream in which he is being strangled by Quirrell’s turban and Malfoy is there laughing and then Malfoy turns into Snape and Snape’s laugh turns into what we later know to be Harry’s memory of the murder of his parents. Is this foreshadowing?

No, my silly Cameraman, it is merely the jaded Harry once again assigning (this time in his subconscious mind) manevolance to Snape on a scale ill-befitting the man. Yes, we know that Snape is repsonsible for ratting out James, which led to the death of Lily as well, and that in and of itself, given Harry's otherwordly connection to his Mother, a reason for his scar to sing a bit. However, we must recall that Snape later in that first book, saves Harry's pre-pubescent tail, countering Quirrell's curses. Why would Snape save Harry if he were truly as horrid as some say? For giggles? No...Snape is nothing if not fox-clever. If Quirrell was hexing Harry, Snape must have had at least an inkling that someone loyal to LV was attempting his life. Why would Snape risk himslef, unless he were committed to the other side?

Snape causes Voldemort to kill Harry’s parents, Malfoy causes Snape to murder Dumbledore.

Faulty line of thought, hon. Malfoy does not cause Snape to murder Dumbledore. Dumbledore, knowing that Draco is going to make the attempt...and guesses correctly that "(he) is no murderer" has prearranged Snape to do the deed when Draco cannot...thereby cementing Snape's cover.

Following this, Harry has his first actual encounter with Snape and Snape is incredibly mean to Harry. Harry has done nothing to Snape and Snape treats him with contempt and cruelty from day one. He also tries numerous times to get Harry in trouble if not expelled. If, as we are supposed to believe, Snape feels remorse about playing a part in having James and Lily murdered and the attempted murder of Harry, shouldn’t he act like he’s sorry? Is total animosity the behavior of someone who regrets his deed?

Snape treats him with contempt and avarice for a number of reasons. 1) He reminds Snape of James, whom I believe he hated and was jealous of.
2) Snape's remorse is not over the death of James so much as it is over the death of Lilly, whom I believe he loved from afar! He then has NO REASON to act like he is sorry in front of Harry.
3) As for getting Harry expelled, I do not recall any REAL attempt in getting Harry expelled by Snape... at least until Sirius returns. All other mentions of such are IMO designed to keep Harry uncomfy, and chip away at his "golden Boy" status, that Snape is automatically jealous of. Indeed, expelling Harry after Sirius returns may actually have been GOOD for Harry's health, given the real attempts made on his life while IN Hogwarts. Had he been in the are of Sirius and the rest of the Order, attempts on Harry would indeed have been harder to execute. So put that in yer pipe n' smoke it!

The first hint we get about Snape’s motivations is when Dumbledore tells Harry that Snape and James hated each other and that James did something Snape could never forgive James for and that it was saving Snape’s life. Dumbledore also believes that this is why Snape worked to save Harry’s life his first year and that Dumbledore believes that would make Snape feel that he and James were even. This doesn’t make any sense.

I think you are right about this. Dumbledore made this up to insulate Harry from the truth of Snape's motivations. Recall that Snape can lie to anyone, including LV and not be detected. Whereas Harry is a nincompoop in occulemcy. If he was made aware of Snape's duplicity even for a second, given his close bond w/ LV...the jig would be up.

... We later know that Dumbledore believes that inciting the murder of Harry’s parents is Snape’s single most regret. By Snape’s own admission this isn’t true. He refers to this when discussing his trustworthiness with Bellatrix and Narcissa. He says he spun Dumbledore a tale of deepest remorse.

Here again, what else could Snape say? He HAS to say this to these deatheaters in order to further his advantage with them. You'd expect him to say otherwise if it WEREN'T true? Hmph!

Constantly throughout the series, Dumbledore’s trust of Snape is brought up over and over again. Whenever it is brought up, no matter what the logical arguments are about NOT trusting Snape, the discussion/argument is always finished with the assertion that if Dumbledore trusts Snape then they all should. On the flip side of this, by Dumbledore’s own admission he makes mistakes. He even admits to making a mistake in thinking that Snape can overcome his feelings about James when he assigns Snape the job of teaching Harry legilimency.

a good observation, and one that actually agrees with MY assertions above. That he did indeed hate James, and was jealous of him. That Harry reminds him of James both in word and in deed, and in Golden Boy status.

Beyond the fact that Dumbledore’s trust is continually brought up and questioned there are a few other incidents that address his trust. When Dumbledore vouches for Snape at the trial of Igor Karkaroff, Moody gives Dumbledore a look of deep skepticism.

Of course he does. He has not been let in on the secret for the same reason that Harry is not. LV can and would learn the truth if ANYONE other than Snape and Dumbledore himself knew.

Snape was definitely a Death Eater at one time. Then the biggest piece of evidence so far is Snape’s answers to Bella’s trust questions.

Quote: “I have played my part well,” said Snape. “And you overlook Dumbledore’s greatest weakness: He has to believe the best of people. I spun him a tale of deepest remorse when I joined his staff, fresh from my Death Eater days, and he embraced me with open arms –“ Later in Snape’s justification conversation with Bella, Snape says that Dumbledore has been a great wizard but he is getting old and slow. Note that Snape is speaking of Dumbledore in the past tense during this part of the exchange.

Here again...what elese CAN he say? He must say this in order to win and/or bolster his trust with them. Evil (especially with those two dummies) is pretty gullable, and their desire to see Dumbledore as weak, made this story a tasty one for the swallowing!

There are some other interesting things in this section of the book which point at Snape being on the side of Voldemort. Peter Pettigrew is living at Snape’s house to help Snape with something Snape is working on. What is it they are up to? It can’t be anything to do with the school or with helping the Order. Pettigrew and Snape hate each other and Pettigrew is obviously on the side of Voldemort. Draco has the plans at Hogwarts covered. Snape already knows of the plan to have Draco kill Dumbledore. Snape takes the Unbreakable Vow to insure that Dumbledore’s death will come about in one way or another.

Here is where my argument is strongest. Look at what Snape DOES say when he takes his unbreakable vow, Cammy Jenn. He says ONLY that he will do what needs to be done (or some such)..NOT I will KILL DUMBLEDORE the idiot. Snape meticulously parsed his words so that he could honor his agreement with Dumbeldore, whatever it was, while not setting himself up to murder the man in cold blood. As for him working with Pettigrew? So what...just part of the cover. The more control he has on plans and their development, the more likely he is to be able to serenpitously affect the outcome his way.

Also in Snape’s “evidence” to Bella, he brings up that the Dark Lord has asked Snape every one of Bella’s questions and is satisfied with the answers. He certainly has an answer for everything. This brings up the point that Voldemort is by Snape’s own admission, the greatest legilimens the world has ever known. Dumbledore is not likely to use legilimency against Snape to test his tale of deep remorse. Voldemort by his very nature would definitely use legilemency on Snape without hesitation. This tells me that it’s far more likely for Snape to be fooling Dumbledore than Voldemort.

That my dear is a matter of trust. Neither Voldy nor Dubledore would be able to detect the lie. Either you think Severus is with D or LV. You prove nothing! MAHWWHAHHAA!

Snape also says that Voldemort ordered him to be at Hogwarts. This fits with Snape’s supposed conversion before the fall of Voldemort and is likely since we know that Voldemort has spies everywhere and he obviously wants something from the school and someone to spy on Dumbledore. It all makes sense.

I agree that it does make sense, though not for the same reasons, obviously. If Snape knew the spies were watching, he'd HAVE to perform up to spec...or risk tipping his cover, right? Sheesh! Yo uare proving all my theories for me!

On the subject of occlumency/legilimency I find some interest in intent/result of the lessons given Harry by Snape. Snape doesn’t tell Harry how to resist.

So? Perhaps he CAN'T...perhaps..like creating a petronous, you can or can't do it... you just DO IT.

He also attacks Harry well before Harry has a chance to be ready. He also tells Harry that he should empty himself of emotion but purposefully riles Harry up each and every time, just before attacking.

All this talk to me sounds a lot like a man trying to teach Harry how to complete the task as if in battle. No one is going to wait for Potter to concentrate and be ready. Snape is doing what he has to in order for Harry to be battle ready! Plus he gets to torment Harry! Eveyone wins!

Dumbledore gives the task of teaching Harry to Snape, full well knowing that Snape hated James and has issues with Harry and then he let the lessons go on unsupervised and without checking in with Harry to see how they are going. By Dumbledore’s own admission he doesn’t want Voldemort to read too much into his relationship with Harry and Snape knows this. Snape therefore has no accountability to Dumbledore, why wouldn’t he get away with opening Harry’s mind further to the Dark Lord. Here’s something else. Harry has been having dreams of the corridor since the summer. What if Voldemort knew about the connection all along and has been planting that dream? It’s not like Voldemort is sending Nagini down the hallway on a regular basis. Snape seems to know a lot about what the Dark Lord knows and doesn’t know about the connection.

that's a lot of speculation, but let's say for a moment that you are right that Snape does know a lot about what the Dark Lord is up to. He SHOULD if he is playing his part right, CJ. Having Dumbledore give Snape the task of teaching Harry makes a lot of sense for 2 reasons. 1) It makes sense given the fact that everyone knows of Snape's abilities...that there IS no one better. If Dumbledore gave the job to anyone else, it would look as though he didn't trust Snape and that would make Snape useless to LV, and put Snape at risk. D didnt want that. 2) It gives Snape the chance to make up for his misdeeds.

“How do you know?” said Harry urgently. “Is this just Dumbledore guessing, or –“

“I told you,” said Snape, rigid in his chair, his eyes slits, “to call me sir.”

“Yes sir,” said Harry impatiently, “but how do you know –“

“It is enough that we know,” said Snape repressively. “The important point is that the Dark Lord is now aware that you are gaining access to his thoughts and feelings. He has also deduced that the process is likely to work in reverse; that is to say, he has realized that he might be able to access your thoughts and feelings in return –“

“And he might try to make me do things?” asked Harry. “Sir.” He added hurriedly.

“He might,” said Snape sounding cold and unconcerned.

Just before this exchange and during the beginning of this exchange, Snape is furious. Is he furious because Dumbledore figured it out? Seems to me that the thought of Voldemort forcing Harry to do things calms Snape down out of his rage. Further, Snape mentions that he has heard that Harry has an aptitude for resisting the imperious curse. How did Snape find this out? Who knows of it other than the Gryffindor students in class that day, BC/Moody, Voldemort and the Death Eaters present just after Voldemort’s return to a full body? Which one told? In a later lesson, Snape pulls the dream about Rookwood from Harry’s memory. Snape gets very calculating when he sees this image. Snape then gets even nastier to Harry and they have a sort of argument. Is Snape afraid that Harry might see something that could expose his double agent status?

No, more likely that Snape fears that Harry might lay bare the double agent staus and reveal it (because of his dreadfully weak mind) to LV. Snape is in a tight spot, and trusting James Potter's spawn is a terrible burden for him.

Some little moments that factor in are things like, why did Snape try to get past Fluffy? We know that Quirrell caused a diversion on Halloween night with the troll but Snape tries to get past Fluffy after that. He isn’t limping until some time after Halloween. Also, why was Snape trying to get the secret of Quirrell’s challenge out of him? Isn’t it possible that Snape wanted the stone for himself? Also, at the quiddich match against Hufflepuff in book one, Snape is obviously pissed off that despite his trying his best to penalize Gryffindor and help Hufflepuff, Gryffindor still wins, however he is disgusted enough to spit on the ground when he sees Dumbledore talking to Harry. What’s that about?

Snape is a petty, jealous, and peevish man. Brave and wanting to avenge the death of the woman that he loved from afar and helped to kill, but he is also, at heart, a dick. Whoopee.

In the second book, Snape repeatedly tries to get Harry expelled or punished.

Again, Jenn...really look at these ocassions. TThere is more about PUNISHMENT and HUMILIATION than there is actual concret action to expell him until Sirius Black returns.

When Snape sneaks into the shrieking shack, the door is heard creaking before Sirius and Lupin explain about Lupin being a werewolf and them all becoming animagi and the map etc. He then interrupts and refused to hear anything further. He is described as having a mad glint in his eyes and he is beyond reason and threatening to call the dementors before anyone else can come. Is this unreasonable anger and madness because he doesn’t want Peter to be found?

No, it is two things. 1) Snape being a dick and 2) JKR being a clever author. We are seeing things through Harry's eyes and perspective constantly..sometimes passively sometimes actively. But ALWAYS through Harry's desires. His anger appears unreasonable and guilt laden cuz Harry hates him and wants US to believe as HE does.

After it is found that Sirius has escaped, Snape goes in to a spittle flying rage and accuses Harry of having something to do with Sirius’s escape. Again I question why Snape hates Harry so much. Hating him this much because he was teased by Harry’s father seems a bit extreme. Could it be that he resents Harry for being the catalyst for the downfall of the Dark Lord and that Snape is afraid to be blamed for Voldemort’s downfall and in danger from the other death eaters if they find out that Snape is the one who sent Voldemort to the Potter’s house in the first place? Snape also develops a nervous twitch in his mouth and can’t stop flexing his fingers when he sees Harry after Sirius’s escape. Seems a bit excessive to me. When Snape gets no satisfaction from trying to get Harry expelled he lets slip about Lupin being a werewolf, insuring that at least one of Harry’s potential friend/mentor is no longer able to help Harry.

Again, my dear, he hates Harry not because he sees him as a symbol of the man who teased him, but as the symbol of the man who stood in the way of his love, and that hatred served as the catalyst for destroying the object of his affection. Snap may be petty and a dick, but he is NOT shallow. His motivation IMO, makes twisted sense. As for letting slip that Lupin is a werewolf...think about the chain of events. Snape actually did them a favor by letting it slip. Had they not known, they could easily have been suprised by a werewolf in the forest... not good. Again, though...through Harry's eyes we see a snivelling Snape whose motivations begin and end with making Harry, the self-invovled teen that he is, miserable.

In HBP, Snape has a conversation with Malfoy about Malfoy’s plans. Snape tells Malfoy about the unbreakable vow. Snape also tries to use Legilimency on Malfoy and yet Malfoy is able to repel Snape easily. So lets get this straight. Harry has already shown an aptitude for the skills necessary, an instinctive aptitude and he can’t learn it in many lessons with Snape. Malfoy learns it well enough to repel Snape after learning it over the summer.

For that I have no answer whatsoever. Could be that Malfoy was aided in some way. It doesn't pass any logical test (regrdless of which side you want to argue) .... perhaps JKR will reveal what was up with that. Malfoy CAN'T be that good...he's such an Oedipal twit.

Furthermore, when Malfoy tells Dumbledore about Snape making the vow to Narcissa, Dumbledore responds with, “Of course he would tell you that.” This implies that Dumbledore thinks that Snape lied to Malfoy. Why doesn’t Dumbledore know about the unbreakable vow?

It implies nothing of the sort...read another way (out of the influence of Harry's biases) it simply suggests that Dumbledore was telling Malfoy that it was a natural thing that Snape would share that knowledge with him, to grant the boy confidence...that the deed would be done one way or the other, and that Dumble dore recognizes the stakes, and that Malfoy will not murder him.

Dumbledore pleads with Snape, Snape looks at Dumbledore with hatred and revulsion then kills Dumbledore. I have a hard time believing that Dumbledore would have wanted Snape to kill him. What is accomplished? Malfoy is still going to be a death eater, Snape is now outed as a death eater and Dumbledore is dead people, dead. Snape only refrains from killing Harry because the Dark Lord wants Harry for himself. Snape is obeying the Dark Lord. Snape is not trying to help Harry. He is messing with his mind. That is what I think…..

Look at what you have just written. ALL of it ALL I say is written as though Harry himself has guided your hand! HAtred and revusion? Not for Dumbledore as Harry would believe...but for the fact that the moment he feared has come to pass. Dumbledore probably did not want it, but recognized its value. What IS accomplished indeed? Malfoy is feckless and wounded, and scarred mentally. Let the death eaters have him! No big loss. Snape is outted as a death eater...but that is the PLAN!!! The death eaters now trust him!!! As for D being dead? I think he is too...but recallt that he is the greates wizard like EVER. My guess is that he will be a big player, and that they'll all be carrying around wallet-sized portraits to hear his advice and get help from the great beyond. Hell, I won't put it past JKR to plausibly bring him back in some compelling way, though I doubt it. As for Snape not killing harry.... that is the best excuse EVER....and what's more, it is true. He can protect Harry by threatening him with the Dark Lord! Snape KNOWS that the DL must combat Harry..but also that Harry is the ONLY way to defeat him (the being who killed the object of his unrequieted affection) forever! Yes, he is also messing with harry at every turn too....why? Cuz like I say...even though he is a complex, torn, and powerful character...a man motivated by love, by hatred; by remorse and by desire...he is also a dick!

Free Severus!!!!

Oh my, well done Guns!!

Menolly wrote:Oh my, well done Guns!!

Why thankee, milady! I think that Jenn will have to like send me Peeps or some other boon in the mail when it turn out that I am correct and she is well.... less than correct!

A Gunslinger wrote:

Menolly wrote:Oh my, well done Guns!!

Why thankee, milady! I think that Jenn will have to like send me Peeps or some other boon in the mail when it turn out that I am correct and she is well.... less than correct!

LOL!

Unfortuntely, apparently BGB was unable to find any Peeps.

Now, get your tush up to the announcement thread regarding dissecting HP and tell me yay or nay...

Oy Vey! Ok Guns, Methinks thou art downplaying the animosity of Snape towards Harry and writing it off to Harry's "jaded" viewpoint too much. Was Harry jaded as a first year? From first eye contact and first class with Snape? Was he exaggerating the encounters? I think not. In POA even Fudge is taken well aback by Snape vehemence that Harry had something to do with Sirius's escape. To say that Snape hates Harry because of Snape's love from afar for Lily and Snape's hatred of James being the reason he hates Harry and feels no remorse, well, Snape tried to get Harry killed when Harry was an innocent baby. He ruthlessly got Harry's father killed. He caused Harry to grow up in a hostile environment and parentless. If he feels remorse for this which endears him to Dumbledore, wouldn't it extend to some level to Harry? I'm just not buying it. I agree that there must be more to Snape's hatred but I just don't think it's Lily. If I am wrong I'll pm you for your address and send you rewards for being far brainier than myself. I think we should just agree to disagree and find out at the end of this month.

On the occlumency argument, I think you are confusing the patronus spell with resisting the imperious curse. The patronus charm has clear instructions given by Lupin. Concentrate on a happy memory. Resisting the imperious curse had relatively no instruction from Moody but Harry managed to master it in three tries. If as Snape tells Harry, it's a lot like resisting the imperious curse which I have been informed you have some aptitude at (or some such thing) then why can't Harry do it? I just don't think that Snape was really trying to help. He seemed to be more there to torture Harry than anything else. Snape states that Bellatrix must have been teaching Draco so we know how he learned it. I just think it's odd that Harry only gets steadily worse from lesson one in which he almost does it, then gets worse and worse as the lessons go if Snape was legitimately trying to teach him. If Draco can learn it in one summer well enough to repel Snape, then Harry should have been able to pick it up easily....another teacher would have helped the situation perhaps. Even Dumbledore admits this! This also ties in with your rebuttal about there being no one better to teach Harry than Snape. If Snape is such a great teacher and so accomplished, why doesn't Harry learn it? Something just doesn't sit right with me about this. Not at ALL. Secondly, giving Snape the opportunity to make up for his past misdeeds by teaching Harry occlumency? Are you nuttier than I am? Gunsybunny, I lurve and respect you but WHAT?!!!? How do you get to that conclusion? You even contradict yourself by admitting that this allows Snape to further torture Harry.

On Snape killing Dumbledore, wait a minute. If your theory is that Dumbledore told Snape to kill him to save Draco's integrity, then how do you get to "Malfoy is feckless and wounded, and scarred mentally. Let the death eaters have him!" Doesn't that defeat the WHOLE purpose of Snape doing the deed instead? You kinda lost me there sweetheart.

I need to sign off here on this for now before my head explodes.

All right Jenn...

I have spent a fair ampount of time pouring over the books in the last few days...and I have unearthed a major support over the Snape not Evil theory and a few more supports for the admittedly more spurrious Snape loved Lilly Theory.

1) Felix Felicis:
We know from Professor Slughorn that the drink of Felix Felicis “will find that all your endeavors tend to succeed” We also know that Ginny, Ron, and Hermione all drank Felix Felicis the night of Dumbledore’s death. So, when Ron tell s Harry that he messed up, letting Draco and the Death Eaters pass into the tower...how could something so unlucky happen to the drinker of liquid luck? Hermione too said that she was stupid not to realize that Snape had stupefied Professor Flitwick. But for someone waiting to catch Snape betraying the Order, how could liquid luck NOT help her out? PERHAPS the FF WAS working to their advantage though they didn't realize it.

If Snape were evil, the potion should have coaxed them into doing SOMETHING to delay him at least and it didn’t. This leads to the conclusion that the lucky thing to do was to let Snape succeed because he’s still working for the good side.

2) How did Dumbledore know that Malfoy was trying to kill him?
There's only one way he could have found out, given that Malfoy has learned sufficient Occlumency to deny even Snape access to his mind. Snape told him, which he didn't have to do!

3) Why did Snape save Dumbledore's life when he was critically injured by the ring Horcrux?
Voldemort wants Dumbledore dead, and he's only using Malfoy for the assiasination to get back at Lucius. He hadn't even yet set Malfoy off on his mission when Dumbledore was injured by the ring/horcrux! Snape could so easily have pretended to try to save his headmaster (when he came back so wounded) while actually doing nothing. He'd have got the full sympathy of the Hogwarts staff for at least trying his best... could have continued spying, etc....yet he saved D? Why, Jenn....WHY?

4) Why didn't Snape kill Harry in the 5 years he had been teaching him? I may have offered this one to before, but... anyway, Bellatrix asked Snape this question too at Spinner's end, and his answer was, frankly, ludicrous. He could not really justify his failure to kill Harry, and he convinced nobody, even Bellatrix in the moment. It took the Unbreakable Vow and Snape potentially condemning himself to death to persuade her of his fidelity to the Dark Lord. The true answer of course is that Snape had failed to kill Harry (and indeed had gone out of his way to protect him on several occasions) because he is not a loyal Death Eater and so didn't want him dead, however much he may depise him for his resemblance to James.

Lily Potter:

The answers to a list of yet-to-be solved mysteries in the series couldbe answered by "because Severus Snape loved Lily Potter".

1) Why did Snape become a Death Eater? Losing Lily to James of all people was the last straw.

2) What made him regret that decision and return? That he had put her in danger through his Death Eater activities.

3) Why is he unpleasant with Harry? He is the son of his enemy by the woman he loved - he is also the reason she died, in a sense.

4) Why does he repeatedly save Harry? Son of Lily.

5) Why did Dumbledore trust Snape, and repeatedly refuse to share his reason? Because Dumbledore knew it was true that Snape loved Lily, and this was a private disclosure he would not share without Snape's permission.

The twin revelatoin of Snape's hearing the prophecy and resulting remorse, and the confusion in Slughorn's mind between his Potions improvements and Lily's talent ...any thoughts?

Care to sign onto my theories? YOU KNOW I am working on you here...there is a shadow of doubt in your replies ot me my dear!!!!

Maybe Snape was even there are the Hollow when James and Lilly died (or shortly thereafter)...?


EDIT: had to add the stuff I forgot!

That's a very interesting point you bring up about the FF potion. Very good Gunslinger. You still aren't selling me on the Lily love triangle though. And unfortunately my fine Gunslove, I am too mentally done in to offer up any further arguement tonight. Seriously good good good point about the FF. Dang.....

Cameraman Jenn wrote:That's a very interesting point you bring up about the FF potion. Very good Gunslinger. You still aren't selling me on the Lily love triangle though. And unfortunately my fine Gunslove, I am too mentally done in to offer up any further arguement tonight. Seriously good good good point about the FF. Dang.....

I am working on you!!!!! Come with me to Snapetown, Jenn! It's all good!

Free Severus!!!!!

Snape my not be good, but he is not the Dark L-rds!!!

I'll join your battle cry, Guns...

Free Severus!!!!!