Kevin's Watch

Part II, Chapter 10 – Troubled Sanctuary

Who
Stave, Liand, Anele, Mahrtiir, Pahni, Bhapa, assorted Ranyhyn, waynhim, & ur-viles, and (100- ‘a score or two’, so 60+) Haruchai Masters, plus additional Masters, Handir, Galt, and the Mahdoubt.

In a Nutshell
The time-traveling group led by Linden enters the restored gates of Revelstone, finding more Masters, and… erm… sanctuary there that is quite troubling.

More Detail on What Happens
They make it into Revelstone, and their Illearth-Stone-backed-Demondim attackers semi-mysteriously fall back [what’s up with that?]. Beyond the gates in growing darkness, in the great forehall, and with the remaining bits of her Dirtying-up health-sense, Linden summons light and then dispenses healing to Stave (which we later find was a no-no) and Bhapa, including healing Bhapa’s cataract (pre-existing condition alert: in case you were wondering, that’s not going to be covered by RamenCo HMO). She also heals the worst hurts of the Ranyhyn, which mightily impresses the Ramen.
The group is ‘welcomed’ to Revelstone by Handir, the Voice of the Masters, who by his described need for a little ‘Just For Men’ hair treatment appears to be more advanced in years and a$$-kickin’ than the others. Linden isn’t that gracious with her reply, a demand for light. Its an ice-breaker, though, they get some light (sputtering and smoky torches - no wood lore to speak of, folks) and they start to negotiate the nature of their stay. Handir states that the waynhim and ur-viles will be led to the upland plateau of Glimmermere, where they can service their own Weird selves. After some discussion, Handir permits the same plateau treatment for the Ranyhyn, to be tended by the Ramen – and Ramen only, you horse-using Haruchai dweebs! Manethrall Mahrtiir reminds them. The remainder of the time-traveling group gets guest accommodations by the inherently hospitable Masters et al. For this chapter, et al means the Mahdoubt, but we’ll get back to her in a bit.
They have all noticed the use of the Illearth Stone against them. It is bad mojo (dw should know!) that they all know they cannot hope to withstand. Handir mentions that the Demondim have not yet truly wielded the Stone against them, since they’re all still alive to discuss it.
Linden gets all curious about the gates, wondering why they have them, as a way of showing her belief that their sanctuary is quite troubled. Handir says the Giants of the Search put them there as a gift. More on that later.
Handir introduces them to Galt, a Master who will be their pseudo-butler while in Revelstone. We find out a bit later in this chapter that Galt is a Humbled one – Masters of every generation fight for the status to become one of three Humbled, which involves a Berek/Covenant-style maiming of the last two digits of the right hand as a reminder not the engage in the folly that led to Korik, Sill, and Doar being mastered by the Illearth Stone in books past.
Anele is temporarily taken from them by the Masters, who wish to imprison him as a wielder of Earthpower. Linden trades a few empty (from her side) threats with the Masters around whether they intend to harm him – Anele really does not want to go with them, and when she reluctantly but helplessly lets them do it, he looks to Linden like she has betrayed him mightily, making her feel pretty bad – and Linden feels very bad about that, too.
Stave also tosses a dig at her by closing ranks with the Masters against her – and all for shaming him – by default through the eyes of his people – by healing him? [Dude, lighten up!] This makes Linden feel even worse than she already does.
Their accommodations now decided, they make their way into Revelstone, and Linden gets her own suite, where she reflects on what a pickle she is in, and all the forced choices she has made, and cogitates on the enigma of Anele and his random possessions that seemingly develop context from the material he stands upon. As she gains a better understanding of how these changes are worked upon him, she dreads having to make use of that knowledge to her benefit and his cost, and wonders if any good at all can come out her self-proclaimed-evildoings.
She also bathes, washes her clothes, and physically decompresses a bit, while she does her thinking. She is soon visited by Liand, who introduces the Mahdoubt. This multi-eye-colored old woman dressed in a strange and ugly patchwork robe seems to be a servant of the Masters. Speaking of which, while questioning Galt about why there are gates (which we were already told were a gift to the Land from the Giants of the Search, but Galt gives us more exposition on the how and when of it) Linden notices that his hand is maimed like Covenant’s, Jeremiah’s, Berek’s, etc. This is where she pumps him for information on why, and he briefly describes the Humbled. She is dutifully horrified at the finality of Haruchai thinking and planning, and shuts the door on him.
She learns more about why the Mahdoubt does what she does – she serves Revelstone, not the Masters, and we are led to believe that she does it simply because she is too old to tend sheep. Her carriage and her insight – along with her weird mismatched eyes - belie her servant trappings, so we are left wondering whether she is a little witchy or not.
The Mahdoubt leaves to get a second tray, Liand sits with her in silence, and she ferments on how she – like Covenant before her – is prepared to willfully endanger the Land’s future by focusing on the saving of a child, and how the Masters would never make such a decision as they. Liand leaves her to sleep, and she does so.

DW Analyzes
Handir: so far, the Voice of the Masters is just that – he is Locutus of the Haruchai, so he speaks as the will of the Masters. Because of the mind-speech they have, they all have the same information at their disposal, so we have little extra significance to attach to him at this point in the story.
Galt: The Humbled is an interesting concept, typical of the simple warrior brutality that we expect of the Haruchai people, though it bespeaks a little lack of advancement for the Haruchai as free thinkers, even after all this time has passed. They are a race of absolutes in a place that doesn’t tolerate that very well. The Haruchai in general, but the Humbled in particular, make me think of the written laws of our real world. They are put in place as a good and indestructible measure to make something important happen as the result of something bad that already happened, but left untended, it ends up existing for its own sake and harms the people it was nominally meant to protect, because it has lost relevance when placed against the sliding scales of judgement and shades of gray needed to get by in the real world. We would be in a terrible state without laws (and Haruchai), but laws (Laws) don’t save the realm, they enable other people to do so...
Linden: She’s tired. She’s expended herself extravagantly to do something that should have been impossible, Haruchai and ur-viles and waynhim and Ranyhyn have died keeping her alive, and she feels sick about it, that they are doing this for her and the Land, and she is doing it mostly for Jeremiah, which makes her feel dishonest, and perhaps slightly evil. [We need no comments from the THOOLAH peanut gallery, thank you very much...]
Liand: We don’t hear much from the Stonedownor this chapter, except a potential May-December romance with the Mahdoubt...?
Ramen: Aside from a typical outburst of outrage from Mahrtiir at the audacity of the Masters for not simply falling down in permanent salaam to the Ranyhyn, the Ramen aren’t the focus of the chapter either.
The Mahdoubt: From the way that she has been described, there is absolutely no way this the last we hear of the Mahdoubt. Is she to be a wielder of Earthpower where none is permitted? Is she a Raver spy? Is she just the current incarnation of the Unfettered? She has mojo, but how will it manifest, and will it really be in service to Revelstone, or just Liand?

THE POINT
To me, the focus of this chapter is Linden. The chapter starts out with her need for illumination – first literally: the forehall of Revelstone is dark because the Masters can apparently see in the dark, but she and her party can’t. Second, figuratively, Linden has to think through the choices she has already made, figure out the deal with Anele – i.e., how she can use his situation to her advantage and then feel really bad about it – how she can win him back from the Masters while still gaining their support to launch a trip to Mount Thunder where she is certain that Jeremiah is being held, and without being accosted by the Illearth Stone-powered Demondim that chased them to Revelstone in the first place.
The chapter ends with her snuffing out all lamps in her room but one before she slumps into exhaustion. So, again with the light/dark references. The Masters are in the dark in Revelstone, apparently literally as well as figuratively. Linden almost immediately sheds some light of her own using the Staff of Law. She then searches for additional light within herself by pondering her situation, and comes up with some ideas, but ends up doubting herself more than anything, and finds sleep.

DW's favorite bits from Chapter 2-10
“Linden did not dismount. She was reluctant to leave the security of Hyn’s back. Like the Staff, Hyn’s fortitude and loyalty enabled her to exceed herself. In spite of her exhaustion, she called up fire from the Staff and held it flaming over her head. If she could not accomplish anything else, she meant to at least see—
As the warm buttery light reached for the walls of the cavernous hall, she studied the condition of her companions.” This quote reinforces the light/dark metaphor, but also gives me pause with the concept of warm, buttery light. I am simply stunned by this concept. At the risk of overanalyzing, I wonder at the word choice of buttery. I am nearly certain that buttery was chosen for its color quality only. But I can’t help but wonder… buttery is good for biscuits, but perhaps not for light, if it leaves a greasy residue. Are we being very subtly prepared to be told that there are bad qualities to the Staff of Law? And yes, I do fear I am overanalyzing.

“She could not imagine what else he might have told his kinsmen.” A reference to the mind speech of the Haruchai, assuming that Stave has dished on everything to the other Masters, and a nice foreshadowing to the ton of harsh judgment that she fears is going to be leveled against her by them. She has experienced Haruchai judgment before…

“For all of her scrubbing, however, she could not remove the grass stains from her pants. They had become part of the fabric, indelible, and cryptic as runes.” I just like this imagery. And we thought he was only talking about laundry stains.

“Good cannot be accomplished by evil means.” She uses this as a reproach to herself. She believes she is attempting evil to make happen a greater good, but she doesn’t like the interim judgments she imposes on herself and others are wielding at her, because there is always the fear that she is just playing into Foul’s hand, and that impure choices darken the goal. If we lived in a fairy tale world, we wouldn’t have to make such choices, because the villains always wear black, and the heroes always wear white. Isn’t grittiness grand?

“The woman plainly did not doubt her own welcome. Bustling past Linden, she swept into the room: a short dowdy figure apparently well past middle age, with a crow’s nest of hair askew on her head, plump flesh hanging from her arms, and features which might have been sculpted by an unruly child during a tantrum. About her she wore a robe of astonishing ugliness, a motley patchwork of scraps and swaths seemingly selected for the unsuitability to each other, and stitched together at random.” Brilliant description that just jumps off the page! Is there any doubt left that the Mahdoubt is going to resurface in a later work as a colorful defender of Revelstone, or perhaps a destroyer of worlds?

dw

Thanks for filling in, DW!

Excellent Dukkha! Thanks!!!!

Dukkha, excellent job. I like the analysis, the comparison of our laws to the rule of the Masters. This is an apt comparison with Donaldson’s symbolism, too, because the Masters have shunned earthpower in favor of strict discipline and “leadership” (control). As such, they represent the shortcomings of pure Law. It is empty and rigid without earthpower to empower it. This is the fundamental paradox Donaldson has been dealing with since the beginning, the same paradox exhibited in the marrowmeld sculpture. The Haruchai are still making the same mistakes, though in different ways. In fact, it seems their present failure is the logical conclusion of their previous absolutism, the most explicit version of this mistake: the complete abandonment of earthpower altogether. In the past, they participated in Earthpower via their Vow; Earthpower bound them to their pledge. But now they don’t even have that bare connection to Earthpower.

By “ridding” the Land of Earthpower, they’ve reduced it to a place they can control with skill and strength. But the Demondim are a threat they cannot meet in this way. Skill and strength are not enough. I wonder if this is part of Esmer’s plan: to introduce magic back into the equation, to force the Masters’ hand.

We learn one additional fact about Anele’s madness and possessions: it only happens in the “present.” In his own time—the past—touching ground didn’t have this effect on him. So his possessor doesn’t exist in the past, or is powerless to possess Anele in the past. Does it have something to do with Kevin’s Dirt? Or recent events? I’m leaning toward the latter (breaking the Durance, etc.), but they could be connected.

Linden poses the interesting question, “Did the surface on which he stood deteremine the phase of his madness? Or did that surface control which of several beings or spirits could locate and possess him?” So SRD is trying to maintain an ambiguity between madness and possession. This goes along with my hunch that it isn’t strictly possession. Something more complicated is going on, or he wouldn't go through the trouble of preserving this ambiguity.

Rock seems to bring out a mode of consciousness in Anele which is the closest to sanity. Broken rock (Kevin’s Watch rubble and the scree pile) allowed him to read what was written in the stones with near lucidity. On more polished stone, he is more fearful and broken. That’s odd. It’s as if artifically tampered surface of rock causes him distress, but broken rock reveals the true inner nature of the rock—even if it is broken by something unnatural like a caesure. And the exposed gutrock brought him close enough to sanity to reveal his past. So this gutrock was the “truest” rock he encountered.

Anele’s madness is a reflection of the state of stone and soil. On "true rock" (roch that hasn't been artificially polished), he is nearly lucid. His madness isn't inherent to him, it is nothing more than his relation to rock and soil. It's as if there’s something wrong with Earthpower—and as a being of Earthpower it affects him. This is something separate from his possessors, because he retained his madness in the past, even though the possessors left him alone. Whatever is wrong with the Land, it goes beyond Kevin’s Dirt. Anele can feel it even when he’s out of that shroud.

There seems to be a connection between Anele’s fire possessor and the Demondim; they apparently listened to a command of his when he possessed Anele.

Linden considered “manipulating his madness.” That sounds interesting! What does that mean? How would she manipulate it? What’s even more interesting is that she gives up this plan when Galt tells her the story of the Humbled. She has a “rush of inferences” which Donaldson leaves ambiguous. It has to do with “the Haruchai founded their Mastery of the Land on a profound misapprehension.” What exactly, is this misapprehension? And why does it give Linden what she needs? Mutilation is considered an honor. Stave embodies their absolutism by believing he deserved the consequences of his failure to defeat insurmountable odds. So why isn’t the embodied warning of the Humbled a counterbalance to this absolutism? What’s wrong with constantly remembering the limits of their power, their ability to fail, when the other end of that spectrum is absolutism?

The Mahdoubt doesn’t intrigue me as she apparently does the rest of you. I simply do not see any hint or indication that she is a magical being or “witchy.” Different color eyes and strange clothes aren’t enough. Liand does call her an “unforeseen woman.” He suspects he should feel wary, but feels only fondness. Is that enough to suspect magic?

I like how Linden's actions here are the thematic reversal of Covenant’s decision which he made at the beginning of TIW. Donaldson says:

“Her situation, and theirs, differened from Covenant’s in one important respect. He had refused the Land’s distant plight for the sake of a child in immediate peril. For Linden and the Masters, the immediate peril was the Land’s: the distant plight, Jeremiah’s.

Good cannot be accomplished by evil means.

She could not use Covenant’s example to explain or excuse her decisions.”

That is very significant. In thematic terms, this is the central crisis Linden faces. She might have many actions to perform during the course of this story, but this is her thematic dilemma. She’s doing the opposite of Covenant. He risked a bad outcome by retaining good "means." She risks achieving a good outcome via evil means. While these might end up being two sides of the same coin, there is certainly a lesson here Donaldson intends for Linden to learn.

Malik23 wrote:We learn one additional fact about Anele’s madness and possessions: it only happens in the “present.” In his own time—the past—touching ground didn’t have this effect on him...


...It's as if there’s something wrong with Earthpower—and as a being of Earthpower it affects him.

Great observation.

--A

Avatar wrote:

Malik23 wrote:We learn one additional fact about Anele’s madness and possessions: it only happens in the “present.” In his own time—the past—touching ground didn’t have this effect on him...


...It's as if there’s something wrong with Earthpower—and as a being of Earthpower it affects him.

Great observation.

--A

Indeed, eagle-eye Malik gets 10 points for that one!

Yes, a good catch, Malik.

Thinking more about Anele's plight, I have a theory regarding the nature of the material Anele stands on affecting his state. Dealing with temporal distortions and their discontinuities always ends up giving me a headache, though .

Gutrock, i.e., unworked stone, is Anele's only friend, as it gives him lucidity (relief?) that he otherwise lacks in the present time. Worked stone, dirt, and most other materials are not good for his sanity, though. Why is that?

My theory is that since time has been compromised, and Earthpower with it, Anele is sensitive to and can be overtaken by those powerful enough to move through time (LF, Kastenessen and the Elohim in general?, the skurj - is that the fiery being, Esmer?, & TC) when he is on a material that is itself sensitive to time. So dirt, grass, and worked stone - all these things are temporally constrained - and if the Law of Time, assumed to be a foundational Law of Earthpower, is being poisoned, then these materials are subject to the interventions of powers that are struggling to harm/preserve the Law.
Gutrock, however, is more or less 'timeless' in the respect that it hasn't been influenced much by those that are beholden to the Law of Time.
In the trip to the past, Anele was lucid because they had traveled to a time where Earthpower was more intact and time-bound things hadn't yet become 'polluted.'
The present, however, is rife with things that are now polluted by the corrupted law of Time.
In addition to this, Anele seems extra-fearful of Revelstone, and I wonder if it has anything to do with the temporal 'noise' generated by the sheer number of powerful people that have existed there over the years. Plus, one of those time-bound individuals was a Raver...
So with this theory, the more polluted the time stream becomes, the more subject Anele will be to powerful people from other times when he stands upon time-bound materials.
dw

I love your theory...I started thinking along those lines too...especially about Revelstone, time pollution and the skurj. But not only the Raver-what about all that damm blood in general?

Good theory, DW.

We should also consider that the beings that are known to possess Anele would have not yet in that time period learned of him or his accessibility.

Thanks, DW!!

DukkhaWaynhim wrote:The chapter starts out with her need for illumination

Brilliant observation there.

I had a different thought when I read about this. I was chilled. Because the scene - entering Revelstone, being engulfed in darkness, demanding light, obtaining it only after the demand - is chillingly familar to when Thomas Covenant entered Revelstone with Gibbon.

If that scene, in TWL, was meant to signify something about the current occupiers of Revelstone - real servants of the Land consider welcome and hospitality paramount - then it is meant to signify something here as well. Basically -- these people will not be Linden's friends, regardless of how they seem at first.

DukkhaWaynhim wrote:Galt: The Humbled is an interesting concept, typical of the simple warrior brutality that we expect of the Haruchai people, though it bespeaks a little lack of advancement for the Haruchai as free thinkers, even after all this time has passed. They are a race of absolutes in a place that doesn’t tolerate that very well.

The key phrase for me is when Galt stated: From their example, the Haruchai learned the peril of such passions.

Control of passion, as Malik observed, is one Donaldson's central themes in the Chronicles. I am sure that the new Haruchai will help us explore this theme in a new way. My initial thought is that, this is like the Oath of Peace, in that it is a limit to passion. Thinking on it further, maybe not. The lesson Mhoram leared was to not be guided by passions, but to use the energy of passion nonetheless. Are the Humbled actually on the right track here? Or are we only to learn of another pitfall.

Malik23 wrote:We learn one additional fact about Anele’s madness and possessions: it only happens in the “present.” In his own time—the past—touching ground didn’t have this effect on him. So his possessor doesn’t exist in the past, or is powerless to possess Anele in the past.

I am believing that his possessor did not exist in the past, or that his possessor was not excercising the ability in the past.

I can't help but notice the singular possessor in your comment, Malik. I, too, have come to believe that Anele has only a single possessor, whose appearance and manner changes as much as Anele's madness does. Different kinds of earth don't open Anele to different posessors, but rather allow the same possessor to manifest in different ways.

Doesn't that seem simpler?

And yet, it has enormous implications.

I cannot help but notice the significance of this: both Lord Foul and Thomas Covenant can appear when Anele is on grass.

He had been standing on grass of that same kind when Lord Foul had guided her to hurtloam. And earlier, when the Despiser had first spoken to her through Anele: the same grass.
:
:
Thomas Covenant had spoken to her through Anele twice, on the lush grass of the Verge of Wandering: grass so rich and high that she had been unable to walk through it without floundering; the same grass which had stained her pants with a script which she did not know how to interpret.

So when we read about Linden trying to scrub away grass stains that refuse to be ... dismissed from her presence ... this is Donaldson saying, Clue! Clue here! Think about grass, people! Because if the earth-type indicates the possessor, then the same earth-type should yield the same possessor.

DukkhaWaynhim wrote:Gutrock, however, is more or less 'timeless' in the respect that it hasn't been influenced much by those that are beholden to the Law of Time.

It may be that, since Anele's madness was brought on by being ripped out of his time, the timelessness of stone reconnects him to his 'correct' time. The gutrock of the mountains are little changed in 3000 years, they would feel "like home" to him. Or at least, his home-time.

I'm not in favor of any 'corrupted Earthpower" theory myself, only because it's a been-there, done-that thing. I'm looking for Foul's attack to be along a new path.

Which brings us back to, what is Foul's relationship with Covenant at this time, anyway?

Great dissection and insights from everyone! I don't have much to add to the Anele debate, but I'd like to hear your theories on why it might only be one possessor (and who). It's hard to think that the fire-creature is the same being as Covenant and Foul (though I can see how they could now be related).

Some other thoughts:

and with the remaining bits of her Dirtying-up health-sense

What's up w/ that? She's holding and wielding the Staff. Shouldn't it be protecting her against loss of percipience?

Spoiler

(in the next chapter she regains her health-sense by opening to the Staff. why doesn't it work here?)

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The group is "welcomed" to Revelstone by Handir .... Linden isn?t that gracious with her reply

Not gracious? Her reply is so rude it's positively Covenant-esque!!

-----

Why is Linden so uptight about the gates? I could understand if she was just curious. Sure, she needs a way to trust the Masters. But it's been 3000 years.... what do the gates have to do with it? What does she suspect? And, once she finds out, it doesn't seem to do anything to help her trust them. Though it's great to hear what happened to the Search.

-----

Stave also tosses a dig at her by closing ranks with the Masters against her - and all for shaming him - by default through the eyes of his people - by healing him? [Dude, lighten up!] This makes Linden feel even worse than she already does.

If this imposing of healing is such a big deal, why doesn't Handir or someone step in and tell her to stop? The text specifically says "Handir held his peace." Maybe the Voice is testing Stave?

---

When the Mahdoubt brings the tray of food into Linden's chamber, she sets it on the table, then (paraphrasing) "re-aligned it so it was exactly in the center of the table, observed it to verify it's position was exactly right, and gave a nod of satisfaction." Who does that sound like??

----

Haruchai and ur-viles and waynhim and Ranyhyn have died keeping her alive, and she feels sick about it, that they are doing this for her and the Land, and she is doing it mostly for Jeremiah, which makes her feel dishonest, and perhaps slightly evil.

Again we see her becoming positively Covenant-esque in this part of the book. She has the power to stop the Demondim, and knows how to use it (unlike TC in the first chrons), but doesn't even try. She allows everyone else to fight and die for her while she does nothing except stop the caesure and look for Anele.

In the last chapter, they had time to stop the fall, for Liand to mumble Linden's name for the umpteenth time, for the Masters to ride out from the gates... the company surely had time to run into Revelstone before the Demondim caught them. But she waits out there and makes the Masters save her... I know she's exhausted but that's no excuse for allowing the slaughter. Then in her chambers she thinks "how can I get around the Demondim so I can go to Mt. Thunder?" Again, no thought to protect the Land or Revelstone.

In many ways she's turning into Covenant of the 1st Chrons... her self-interest has taken precedence over everything else. It's almost like she's made a bargain like one of TC's... I want you to do whatever I want. I'll help the Land if I have to, but other than that it's Jeremiah or bust.

Relayer wrote:I don't have much to add to the Anele debate, but I'd like to hear your theories on why it might only be one possessor (and who). It's hard to think that the fire-creature is the same being as Covenant and Foul (though I can see how they could now be related).

Well, the grass is one hint.

Another hint I have described here. (Dissection Spoilers)

As for the fire-breathing-man: who knows what the conflict between two such archetypal powers might produce? On the other hand, I have posted earlier that I believe a Raver is involved there, based on clues I saw. If Lord Foul can possess Anele, certainly he might be able to "conference in" a Raver. Or, perhaps, Lord Foul is sufficiently like a Raver that some aspects of his manifestation are similar. Being "hot" was a sign of evil power being used, and it's not necessarily Raver power.

Relayer wrote:

and with the remaining bits of her Dirtying-up health-sense

What's up w/ that? She's holding and wielding the Staff. Shouldn't it be protecting her against loss of percipience?

Apparently, it doesn't automatically protect her. The Staff has few powers of its own, or that act on their own. It requires a weilder to weild it.

Relayer wrote:Why is Linden so uptight about the gates? I could understand if she was just curious. Sure, she needs a way to trust the Masters. But it's been 3000 years.... what do the gates have to do with it?

She respects the Giants' judgement of the Haruchai.

Relayer wrote:When the Mahdoubt brings the tray of food into Linden's chamber, she sets it on the table, then (paraphrasing) "re-aligned it so it was exactly in the center of the table, observed it to verify it's position was exactly right, and gave a nod of satisfaction." Who does that sound like??

Are you suggesting Jeremiah?

Relayer wrote:In the last chapter, they had time to stop the fall, for Liand to mumble Linden's name for the umpteenth time, for the Masters to ride out from the gates... the company surely had time to run into Revelstone before the Demondim caught them. But she waits out there and makes the Masters save her... I know she's exhausted but that's no excuse for allowing the slaughter. Then in her chambers she thinks "how can I get around the Demondim so I can go to Mt. Thunder?" Again, no thought to protect the Land or Revelstone.

I'm not sure that that is the correct interpretation of events.

For one thing, Linden didn't ask the Masters to do anything, Stave did.

Second, she couldn't immediately flee as Anele had wandered into the battele and she had to charge the Demondim, personally mind, to get him back.

Third, before she had time to even contemplate a response to the Demondim she learned that the Demondim were withholding their attack. So why rush into action? There's a puzzle here that needs to be solved.

Yes, I believe she would screw the land to save Jeremiah, but I think that this would only happen if she had to choose between them. As long as saving the Land doesn't compromise saving Jeremiah, she'll do so ... she'll continue to do so.

Wayfriend wrote:Another hint I have described here. (Dissection Spoilers)

I remember that one, and it' makes a lot of sense. That's why I can see TC and Foul as one... but not the fire-man. Your Raver theory is quite possible, though. I still vote for Kasty having taken on the fire from the north or some such thing.

Wayfriend wrote:Are you suggesting Jeremiah?

Yes. I have no idea what the connection could be, it's just something that I noticed.

Wayfriend wrote:I'm not sure that that is the correct interpretation of events.

For one thing, Linden didn't ask the Masters to do anything, Stave did.

Second, she couldn't immediately flee as Anele had wandered into the battele and she had to charge the Demondim, personally mind, to get him back.

Third, before she had time to even contemplate a response to the Demondim she learned that the Demondim were withholding their attack. So why rush into action? There's a puzzle here that needs to be solved.

Assuredly

You're right that Linden didn't summon the Masters, but she just stood there waiting for them to ride by when she could've headed for the gates before they engaged the Demondim (though being the stubborn guys they are, they might have "sought to prove themselves" anyway). Anele wouldn't have had the chance to do his Fahrenheit 451 imitation if she had done so as soon as she wiped out the caesure. I don't think she had yet realized the Demondim weren't really attacking yet either.

And look at her attitude once inside Revelstone. It's all about letting the Masters protect the Keep (which she knows they can't do) while she figures out Anele and how to get to Jeremiah. Very much like Covenant.

Wayfriend wrote: I'm not in favor of any 'corrupted Earthpower" theory myself, only because it's a been-there, done-that thing. I'm looking for Foul's attack to be along a new path.

Good point. Now possession--there's something we've never seen in a Covenant book.

I'd be disappointed if the fire possessor was a Raver. Talk about been-there, done-that. I do hope Donaldson is doing something new. One would think that Linden full of persipience could detect a Raver screaming into her face on the Verge of Wandering. After all, she's been possessed by one.

We really don't know what's going on here. But we do know that Donaldson specifically pointed out the ambiguity between Anele's madness and possession (the quote I used above). Either this is misdirection, or a clue. We also know that Linden saw fire creatures devouring the Land during her summoning vision. So fire within the earth has already been foreshadowed as a destructive, perhaps "perverted" force. Maybe it's corrupted Fire Lions, maybe not. That would certainly be something new, though. And it would be devastating, because the Fire Lions have previously been agents of hope and rescue (Berek and TC).

And while it's not new, standing on stone has been shown to be an effective guard against corrupted Earthpower in the past (Sunbane/sunrise issues), while standing on the bare dirt left one vulnerable. So there's a precedent for this sort of thing.

I just don't think it's a coincidence that Anele "channels" the essence of the earth he's standing on. This is his gift, his power. Similar to the Unfettered One who could read stone. That power in itself isn't a possession. But if the earth itself is "possessed" (or corrupted), then this power would look like Anele himself was possessed. I just think it's more complicated than the possessions we've seen before.

One more point: wasn't the Staff necessary in TIW to locate TC via his boots upon the ground? Wasn't it their unnatural, artificiality that allowed Drool to do this? I don't think LF is inherently able to use the earth as his own "radar" for locating people . . . although Linden did consider that this was how Foul was tracking them.

Relayer, I agree about Linden's actions not being very Land-centric. She hasn't done one thing to help the Land since she's been there. Quite the opposite, if you count risking the Arch to get the Staff. Of course, some might say that she got the Staff to help the Land. But that's not what the text says. In the Waynhim's cave, Linden specifically thinks that she needs the Staff to fight Foul to get her son. But that leads to an old can 'o worms, doesn't it?

Linden's robe being permanently stained reminds one of Covenant's robe after going through Morinmoss in <i>Lord Foul's Bane</i> -- another parallel with the First Chronicles, and I think a hint that Linden is on a variant of Covenant's (self)-destructive path at this point.

>The chapter ends with her snuffing out all lamps in her room but one before she slumps into exhaustion.

This frightened me -- because "snuffing out lamps" is exactly what Linden's been doing internally, every time that someone warns here that she's doing something evil.
At least there's a _little_ hope left...

As for Linden thinking that she needs the Staff to fight Foul, that's worse than frightening. Law is <i>not</i> the answer to Despite, that's been hammered home again and again. The Staff and the Earthpower do <i>not</i> suffice to meet this need, and that Linden thinks they do is an indication that she's still just so out of it that she hasn't even begun to think clearly.

tonyz wrote:As for Linden thinking that she needs the Staff to fight Foul, that's worse than frightening. Law is <i>not</i> the answer to Despite, that's been hammered home again and again.

In [u]Lord Foul's Bane[/u] was wrote:So that the plight of the Earth would not be utterly without hope, [the Creator] sought to help his creation in indirect ways. He guided the Lord-Fatherer to the fashioning of the Staff of Law, a weapon against Despite.

I agree that the Staff and Earthpower alone are not sufficient. But to say that the Staff is not an appropriate tool for the task you would be disagreeing with the Creator.

Yeah, I see nothing wrong with the idea that the Staff is an effective weapon against Foul, either directly or indirectly. After all, LF's most devasting deeds are only possible in the absence of the Staff. That's the whole reason why the Sunbane was possible in the first place, because the Staff was destroyed. And (I hate to sound like a broken record . . . ) we should expect similar vulnerabilities to happen in the absence of the Staff due to Linden removing it from the past. I mean, for LF not to take advantage of this absence would be a huge plot hole. In fact, I don't understand why Linden thought it wouldn't be a problem. Just because the Staff hadn't been used in all that time doesn't negate the fact that it's mere presence would have protected the Land. But now, due to her actions, centuries are left without this protection. Curiously, that's also the time when caesures and Kevin's Dirt gained a foothold. Can't be coincidence.

Who's to say that jumping the Staff across time would have the same affect as destroying it?

Wayfriend wrote:Who's to say that jumping the Staff across time would have the same affect as destroying it?

Are you suggesting that the Staff can affect times during which it's not physically present? If that's the case, then it should work for all times, including those during which it was destroyed.