Kevin's Watch

One passage in TOT confused me a little as to the 'rules' of the necessity of freedom :

... I guess the question is, are you a person - with volition and maybe some stubbornness and at least the capacity if not the actual determination to do something surprising - or are you a tool ? A tool just serves it's user. It's only good as the skill of the user, and it's not good for anything else. So if you want to accomplish something special, something than you can do for yourself, you can't use a tool. You have to use a person and hope the suprises will work in your favour. You have to use something that's free to not be what you had in mind.
That's what it comes down to on both sides. The Creator wants to stop Foul. Foul wants to break the Arch of Time. But neither of them can use a tool, because a tool is just an extension of who they are, and if they could get what they wanted that way they wouldn't need anything else...

Considering the apparent futility of the Creator or the Despiser using a tool to achieve their ends, why is TC so concerned throughout the 2nd chronicles that he's 'sold' himself to Foul by purchasing Joan's life with his own ? By the very rules he lays out, Foul has to grant Covenant a degree of freedom and choice - yet Foul himself gloats in 'You are mine' :

..When you accepted her life from me, you became my tool. A tool does not choose. Did not my Enemy expound to you the necessity of freedom ? Your very presence here empowers me to master you...

I'm confused, can Foul theoretically use a bloody 'tool' to bust the Arch of Time or not ? If not, why is Foul so gleeful about over purchasing TC's soul, and why is TC so concerned ?

Its a great question. Basically, TC chose to bargain with Foul at the fire, giving over his life to Foul to save Joan. He chose in that way to be Foul's servant, his tool. This somehow invalidates his ability to act independantly, though I couldnt say how.

The premise is that only a person who has the ability to succeed or fail, and to make unbiased decsisions could defeat despite.

i will check the GI to see if there are any answers -- Wayfriend, you reading this? any input?

thanks for the reply iQuestor ..

The premise is that only a person who has the ability to succeed or fail, and to make unbiased decsisions could defeat despite.

aye, and from what TC says, that premise extends to Foul's capacity for freeing himself from the Earth by breaking the Arch o' Time ..

But, does accepting payment for one's soul invalidate the necessity of freedom ? Is Foul able to employ TC as his tool if TC accepts the price ?

If so, to what extent can Foul exploit TC's lack of independence ? It's a Grey area - even if we accept the possibility that TC lacks the freedom to make positive choices for the Land's defence, it seems Foul is still required to do a lotta hood-winking and string-pulling to bind TC to his machinations.
It seems for all the elaborateness of his snare, Foul's influence over TC is no greater than during the 1st chronicles, when TC had been chosen by the Creator; in both chrons Foul has the ability to manipulate TC, but TC's choices, whilst sometimes flawed during the 2nd chrons, remain his own. Marid's Venom had more effect on TC's capacity to break the Arch than the bargain imo, though having said that I've only read the first few pages of WGW (I have read it previously - er, 16 years ago ..) and the nature of this bargain might become clearer before the end, I dunno ..

It could be that SRD is using this as Law, as a premise that if you come to the Land with no allegances, no bargains made, that only then can you effect it.


sounds like a wonderful question for the GI. I wish I had thought of this qwuestion when I met him last weekend at Elohimfest...

It could be that SRD is using this as Law, as a premise that if you come to the Land with no allegances, no bargains made, that only then can you effect it.

I like that answer !!

.. and yet ultimately TC does of course effect the outcome of the Land's fate .. hmm ...

A tool just serves it's user. It's only good as the skill of the user, and it's not good for anything else. So if you want to accomplish something special, something than you can do for yourself, you can't use a tool. You have to use a person and hope the suprises will work in your favour.

I think that the first thing anyone needs to think about is what this means? What is it that Donaldson calls a 'tool'?

I can't chop down a tree with my bare hands, but I can with an axe. That's certainly an example of where you can do more with a tool than without a tool. But I don't think that that's what Donaldson means.

Consider, on the other hand, any of the artists here on the Watch. They don't "just" draw; they have an artistic sense and a functional imagination and mind-to-hand skills that make them good artists. And there's no kind of pen or brush or paper that can give you that if you don't have it yourself; in fact, it probably comes out writing with a stick in dirt. So that's an example of where having a tool doesn't make any kind difference.

So in order for the above quote to make any sense, I think we're not talking about axes, I think we're talking about things that are accomplished by using something of our soul, something 'spiritual', if you will. (Donaldson speaks of 'spiritual unity' as a component of magic. He doesn't mean ghosts or angels, he means something that is trans-physical.)

All of which implies that Foul cannot break the Arch, not because he is not strong enough, but because it is a limitation of his spirit - it is a limitiation of who he is.

But wait, you say, then why does Foul want the white gold?!?! Doesn't that make him strong enough to break the Arch? Remember, he doesn't want JUST the white gold, he wants the white gold FREELY GIVEN. Which is more than just the transfer of the physical object, but a granting of something spiritual as well. Something that arrises from the spiritual unity of Covenant and his ring would be granted to Foul in the giving; Foul would be 'spiritually' changed as well. He would not only be strong enough but he would be spiritually enhanced so that he could break the Arch.

At least, that is what we would have to conclude.

Did Covenant becoume Foul's 'tool'? If what we said above is true, then what we are really asking is, did Foul strip something from Covenant's spirit so that he had nothing desirable which could be ceded to Foul?

I'm stumped myself. This is as far as I can understand it.

Part of me thinks, if Foul says it, it's bound to be true. And Covenant did do what Foul had plotted for him to do all along. He couldn't stop Foul or fix the Sunbane or anything.

On the other hand, it makes no sense. If Covenant became Foul's tool. then Foul gained nothing when Covenant handed over the ring.

Maybe someone else can resolve this. Maybe the Final Chronicles will resolve this.

Maybe it's something like this: when Foul manipulated Covenant into becoming his tool, Covenant had no choice but to cede the ring. So the 'real' choice was actually made retroactively, when Covenant chose to save Joan. Foul would claim his spiritual prize at that time; the end of WGW was just his claiming the physical embodiment of it. When Foul took up the ring, he already had that bit of Covenant's spirit that he needed because he got it when Covenant traded himself for Joan.

Some good thoughts on this. I'm stumped too. Would it help at all to consider that:

Spoiler

Covenant didn't save Joan; Foul still has her. In fact, even more so now than at the time of the sacrifice.

... I didn't think so.

Yes, relayer, there seems to be a lot of that. Covenant gave Foul the ring, but then took it back to give to Linden.

Spoiler

Maybe Foul 'repossessed' Joan for failure to pay ...

LOL. I think, though, that Foul dropped it. Finders keepers...

Wayfriend thanks for toning in, your opinion always is insightful.

I wish I would have thought of this to ask the Man last Sat nite!! maybe this is a GI question.

thought-provoking stuff, thanks to all who responded - maybe I'll toddle over to the SRD site and post the question to the man himself at some point - not now though, I gotta get ready for work

I am re-reading The Wounded Land -- here is an insight from CH 12: The Andelainian Hills; TC is crossing into Andelain, leaving behind Linden, Sunder and Holian. He is weak from attack and is pondering his feelings about Linden and his other companions, and worried about what he will find in Andelain...

"Doubt eroded his previous victory in the Land. He could not shake the gnawing conviction that in choosing to buy Joan's safety he had sold himself to the Despiser, had given up the freedom which efficacy against Despite depended; he had felt the knife strike his chest, and knew he might fail. "

This seems to support my earlier assertion, and I think it is a Law SRD set down that he uses as a theme in the books. Since TC chose to save Joan, and therefore serve Foul, he could not be effective against him in the Land, would indeed do exactly what Foul prophesied-- deliver the white gold into his hands.

Cool--an interesting thread in the TC forum. Hasn't been one in a while.

Sleeplessone wrote: I'm confused, can Foul theoretically use a bloody 'tool' to bust the Arch of Time or not ? If not, why is Foul so gleeful about over purchasing TC's soul, and why is TC so concerned ?

No. Donaldson explicitly says Foul can't use a tool to break the Arch. As Wayfriend pointed out, this was set out in the 1st Chronicles by the necessity of TC freely giving the ring to Foul. But really, we don't need any more than your own quote to decide this; Donaldson has stated his rules. Thus, we must conclude that Foul is "so gleeful" and TC is "so concerned" because freewill is still in play.

This can mean two things. Either the free choice has already been made when TC surrendered to the knife, or the free choice is going to be made when TC surrenders his ring. I believe the answer is "both." (Something similar to Wayfriend's speculations about "spiritual" vs physical embodiment of that choice.)

TC is concerned that he will make a choice which damns the Land. AND he is concerned that his surrender at the bonfire was this choice--or it will necessitate this choice (depending on whether the Land is "in his head" or independently real, doesn't matter which because the outcome will be the same).

Although Donaldson supposedly leaves behind the issue of the Land's reality, I think it provides insight to the issue of freewill. On the internal interpretation, Foul is part of TC's psyche. So "giving Foul the ring" means that TC gives his passions over to Despite, i.e., he chooses to act upon the darker, more destructive side of his own passions. Anger and hatred are impotent unless you choose to act upon them. This was the whole point of the Oath of Peace. People limited their freewill so that their actions wouldn't be dominated by negative emotions. However, they took it too far and applied it not only to their actions, but also to experiencing those emotions themselves. Thus, Mhoram's solution was to allow himself to experience those very human emotions--to feel authentically--but then to act rationally upon those feelings, to choose creative and nondestructive actions.

However, TC's choice at the bonfire--while full of good intentions--certainly wasn't nondestructive. It was like a miniature Ritual of Desecration. Having good intentions isn't enough to keep you from serving Despite. You can't surrender your way to victory.

TC is scared that he has already chosen to die, to surrender to death. He didn't "sell himself for Joan." He didn't do something entirely noble. He let himself be destroyed, and did so with a smile. He thought he was doing something good because he had good intentions. But now that he's in the Land, he's worried that this choice is just like giving Foul the ring.


Or, if the Land is an external, independent reality and Foul is his own person, TC's fear of serving him comes from his knowledge of himself (demonstrated at the bonfire, along with his entire past choices). He's afraid that he'll repeat the same destructive pattern (and in a way this is in fact what he does). Foul is gleefully hoping that this will turn out to be true because he, too, knows TC. He knows what kind of person he is. Just like Linden, he has been "chosen for this desecration." And, if you believe Foul entered TC's world as a real, independent being, then Foul also believes he manipulated the circumstances surrounding TC's choice to reenter the Land. Thus, the initial conditions are such that TC will eventually choose to give him the ring. This doesn't mean that TC isn't free. It just means that his choices are specifically limited. After all, TC thinks he is going to die. If that's not enough to make one give up, I don't know what else Foul could do.

Malik -- yep.

Some more support from the text -- Linden is in the cell at Revelstone when the Raver comes in --

"fortunately the Unbeliever" -- he sneered at the name --"will not attempt your redemption. He does not know of your plight."

...

"But he is also," continued the raver in a tone like stagnant water,"is no great matter. Only his ring signifies. He will have no choice but to surrender it. Already he has sold himself , and no power under the Arch of time can prevent his despair."