Kevin's Watch

I'm using ur-monkey's suggestion for June's topic and to start I found a very interesting article on some folks who are creating a "virtual" ancient Rome. So, you know what that means ur-monkey! Don't you?

Wow, that's pretty cool.

Yeah, Rome. The fate of all empires. Corruption and greed and the perpetuation of the "weak" eventually consumed it. And the barbarian hordes of course.

--A

Anyone here read any Gibbon?

I sure have read Gibbon. A couple of times.

Well this is a good place to start. How do you feel about his theory regarding the role of Christianity and the psycho-cultural shift that it offered in the fall of the empire?

Christianity was a factor, though I'm not convinced that it was as great a factor as Gibbon maintains.

As a short answer, I'll try to fill it out further this evening. I think the Empire, by the time of Constantine, needed a unifying religion more than Christianity needed the Empire.[/i]

Interesting reasons stated in the lesson plan here.

The Public Health issue is notable:

There were many public health and environmental problems. Many of the wealthy had water brought to their homes through lead pipes. Previously the aqueducts had even purified the water but at the end lead pipes were thought to be preferable. The wealthy death rate was very high. The continuous interaction of people at the Colosseum, the blood and death probable spread disease. Those who lived on the streets in continuous contact allowed for an uninterrupted strain of disease much like the homeless in the poorer run shelters of today. Alcohol use increased as well adding to the incompetency of the general public.

Unemployment, urban decay and the loss of the Rhine-Danube frontier are very good points as well. Nero, Caligula etc...

Stagnation.

--A

The influx of religions from the Middle East, the cult of Isis, Mithraism, Christianity, Judaism, weakened the state religion to the point that by the time of Constantine it was no longer really functional. By making Christianity the state religion, Constantine gathered the support of what was probably a majority of the people of the eastern part of the empire and a large minority elsewhere. A support which helped him by creating a fifth column against Licinius, the last remaining contender to Constantine for sole emperor, who was based in the east.

The condensation of Gibbon's argument of the role of Christianity in the fall of the empire was that Christianity was a foreign idea in the Empire. Rome, to the early church, was equated with Babylon, and that the fall of Rome would hasten the last judgment and the return of Christ.

However, imo, by giving the church a stake in government, the theology of the church changed from Rome as Babylon to Rome as the state that could be molded to the perfect Christian state. At this point the church, with Constantine's prodding, becomes more concerned with establishing an orthodox doctrine. After all, neither the pagan Emperors or the lions, cared if Christians were Orthodox, Arian, or Gnostic.

Interestingly, what today are the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches are the direct heirs of Rome today. They being descended from the only state institution of the Empire to survive it's fall.

The failure of the Empire in the end had many causes, among them the building of the Great Wall of China by the First Chinese Emperor. The Great Wall was built to impede the ancestors of the Huns, who after the wall's completion migrated west to eventually come up against Rome, in the process pushing all the Germanic and Gothic tribes westward as well.

not to mention the fact that they (the empire) imported WAAAAAAY more goods and services than they exported. and they spent money like there was no tomorrow. (the amount of animals they imported for the games was astounding) they basically wrecked their economy. they couldn't support the outlying empire and it crumbled.

gosh...does this sound familiar????

Was Nero bald and did he own a shotgun?

The failure of the Empire in the end had many causes, among them the building of the Great Wall of China by the First Chinese Emperor.

Highly interesting point!

Lucimay wrote:not to mention the fact that they (the empire) imported WAAAAAAY more goods and services than they exported. and they spent money like there was no tomorrow. (the amount of animals they imported for the games was astounding) they basically wrecked their economy. they couldn't support the outlying empire and it crumbled.

gosh...does this sound familiar????

Very good point! The ancient world was more interdependent than one would think. In the reign of Tiberius there was a banking collapse caused in large part by a civil war amongst the Han in China.

Hmm, never knew that. Very interesting.

--A

Argh! How did I miss this thread? Thanks for going ahead with the suggestion, Danlo.

I'm no expert on ancient Rome, though I do find that era of history fascinating. And I can't help but think of the many parallels that I'm tempted to draw between what we know (or think we know) about Ancient Rome and about contemporary western civilisation - particularly on the subject of decline. Nero was said to have fiddled while Rome burned...while we amuse and hypnotize ourselves with 'reality' tv / x-factor and disaster flicks while the ice caps melt, the rainforests are decimated, and Pandora's Nuclear Box is opened...

Such menacing problems, who wouldn't rather have a quick fiddle?

Ours, and their, society grew increasingly voyeuristic and decadent. Much as ordinary Romans watched bloodsports in the Colisseum, we seem morbidly transfixed by 24 hour news coverage of the nastiest, most f***ed up, most disturbing events happening in the most tormented and wretched parts of the world, beamed into our homes in glorious technicolour.

On the other hand, if the Roman empire hadn't collapsed, maybe we'd still be eating Wrens Livers, Jaguar's Earlobes, Otter's Noses...

Mmmmmm.... Otters noses.....

It's an interesting idea Ur-Monkey. Certainly every civilisation has declined and fallen after it had plateaued at the peak of its power. I myself have often wondered if we're about to witness the same thing with modern western civilisations.

--A