Kevin's Watch

I am re-reading the second Chrons, and have been thinking about Vain. He is one of my favorite characters, and there are many discussions about him here.

My question is: Why did the task of giving him to Covenant fall to Saltheart? Is there a reason? Did Saltheart, or any of the unhomed have any connection whatsoever with the Ur-Viles? How did it go down -- its not like Saltheart would show up as one of their dead, so they'd have had to use some kind or lore or something to contact Saltheart's shade (for lack of a better word)

In the GI, SRD seems to take the easy way out:

Steve Cohen wrote:

Stephen,

Okay here are my questions. Assuming that it won’t spoil "What Will Come After" would you mind shedding some light onto 1) How Dead Saltheart Foamfollower actually acquired Vain from the Ur-viles?

2) How did Covenant’s Dead (and good ‘ol Mr. Troy) formulate a solution to save the Land? 3) How/why Covenant’s dead would have answer to the Land’s need different than would be conceived by the Elohim. (Beyond the reason that Elohim through Findail didn’t want to bear this particular burden and had that shadow business thanks to Foul weighing them down.)

Steve

SRD replies:

1) Covenant's Dead in Andelain acquired Vain very simply: the ur-viles gave him to them.

2) The Dead--being dead and all--exist on a different plane of knowledge than the living. Just to pick one obvious example: they have a different relationship with Time. Covenant's Dead don't reveal everything they know because, like the Old Lords, they understand the dangers of unearned knowledge. But they clearly have access to some pretty wide bodies of knowledge.

...
(10/21/2004)

Does any one have any comments on this?

I guess that there is no real significance, but I enjoy the speculation and insight of others...

I've always looked at it as Vain and Saltheart being representive their own unique "purity", so it makes sense (to me) that Saltheart would be the one...

Covenant trusted Foamfollower without question, and would have never been able to refuse him. Thus Foamfollower was the logical choice to present Vain to Covenant.

dlb said what I was going to say.

Oh I agree completely...I just think the ur-viles gave Vain directly to Foamfollower because they reconized his "purity".

Wayfriend wrote:dlb said what I was going to say.

Hell, for all I know you probably taught that particular point to me....

I agree too. Plus... the others (Mhoram, Elena and Bannor) had messages for Covenant. SRD needed a way to include Foamfollower in the scene

thanks all for your comments. I certainly agree with Dlb's assesment and also, how could Saltheart not be represented? How could covenant refuse him anything? great points, all. thanks.

Did TC really trust FF more than, say, Mhoram? Maybe they were just better friends.

I think that SRD's answer is probably as deep as it goes. If anything, the readers trust FF more than any other character, and SRD wanted readers to accept Vain's purpose as necessary despite it being ambiguous for three books. This acceptance was necessary as a narrative device, not as a plot point. In other words, it was necessary as a means to balance the suspicion in the readers' minds, more so than to make TC's decision plausible in terms of the story. It's plausible that if Elena or Mhoram had asked TC to take Vain, he'd comply. Why wouldn't he? But if so, the readers might have retained more suspicion about Vain's purpose than we already did. However, because it's FF, we accept Vain more readily, despite his silence and indifference.

Many times, writers make decisions for their "effect" than for their necessity to the plot. I think this is one of those cases, because it really wouldn't have affected the plot one bit to have Mhoram give Vain to Covenant, instead of FF.

Relayer wrote:I agree too. Plus... the others (Mhoram, Elena and Bannor) had messages for Covenant. SRD needed a way to include Foamfollower in the scene

There you go, another example of a narrative device rather than a plot point. I like the way you think, Relayer. Not every single question about these books can be answered by internal reference to the story. Sometimes it just suits the writer's narrative intentions for the readers. He knew we'd all want to see FF in that scene. It's comforting, in a creepy way (if that makes sense ). And with so much of the Land changed in a drastic, unfamiliar way, he knows that readers are at this point longing for the familiar. So he gives us that.

Did TC really trust FF more than, say, Mhoram? Maybe they were just better friends.

Covenant and FF certainly went through a LOT together; Covenant and Mhoram didnt get to spend much quality time together getting the crap beat out of them. The fall of Soaring Woodhelvin comes to mind but I think both Mhoram and FF were there with Covenant. They were never really together after They split up during IEW when Covenant left with Elena to find the Seventh Ward.

DOes this mean there was more trust? no, but a different kind of bond. But I agree it was likely more a plot device to include the characters; but I think Mhoram or FF were the only ones who would have been plausibly able to gift him... in any case, SRD could not have failed to have Saltheart and Mhoram present as Covenant's dead in Andelain. it wouldnt be right.

But what if Dukka Wainhim had been there to present Vain on behalf of the Urviles, to foreshadow their eventual collaberation in Runes?

Saltheart touches a deeper part of Covenant's heart than anyone else. He has an undeniability due to, at minimum, his death in Foul's creche.

"Mhoram was my friend. Banner saved my life. Lena loved me. But Foamfollower made the difference."

Wayfriend wrote:Saltheart touches a deeper part of Covenant's heart than anyone else. He has an undeniability due to, at minimum, his death in Foul's creche.

"Mhoram was my friend. Banner saved my life. Lena loved me. But Foamfollower made the difference."

This is true. But it is something that the readers know, not the ur-viles. Even if they heard second-hand accounts of every action TC performed during the course of the first 3 books, they couldn't possibly know which events or people touched "a deeper part of Covenant's heart." Only we know that. For this theory to make sense, it has to be explained from the ur-viles' perspective. If FF giving Vain to TC was necessary due to the plot, then it must derive from the ur-viles' knowledge and designs. If the decision was a plot necessity, there would have to be a consequence to the plot if the event had unfolded differently. However, their plan would have unfolded exactly the same if they'd given Vain to Mhoram to give to TC. Not one single plot course would have been changed.

Any reference to "touching TC's heart" or "the person whom TC trusted the most" is merely a recognition of reader empathy and reader knowledge, not the necessities of ur-viles. Hence, my point that Donaldson chose this particular detail for its effect on readers, not due to the necessities of characters or plot.

Mhoram gained Covenant trust in short order. But it was Foamfollower who help TC at the beginning and at the end. TC trusted Mhoram as a close friend but Saltheart was like a brother. You could feel it from the books.

Great post, IQ. I wondered this when reading the books myself. Here are TC's dead, come to greet him in Andelain, just ghosts, and with them they have this pure, all-powerful, enigmatic creature. This is what I love about SRD. Just around the corner, there's something you'd never guess and something that just doesn't make sense at that time, and he takes you on a magical journey to find out why it's there. Can't wait for October........

Malik23 wrote:This is true. But it is something that the readers know, not the ur-viles.

It's something the Dead would know, too.

look to my first post re: ur-viles