The Runes of the Earth; Part 2, Chapter 12: Find Me

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The Runes of the Earth; Part 2, Chapter 12: Find Me

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The Runes of the Earth; Part 2, Chapter 12: Find Me


She could not imagine what the Masters would do now. But their accumulated judgment had a tangible force which seemed to bear down upon her from the sides of the Close, as heavy as Revelstone’s unillumined rock.

It felt like animosity.
And so, Linden Avery waits in the wake of Stave’s declaration…or maybe it’s more like an affirmation…that he intends walk the path Linden has chosen, for she is The Chosen. Knowing the absoluteness of the Haruchai, it stands to reason that this will not be well received by the Masters. On the contrary, it will have an outcome that at this point cannot be fully comprehended.

Linden, with Liand and Mahrtiir at her side, approaches Stave and bows deeply to him. Her mind flooded with questions and implications. But she knows that now is not the time for such inquiries. Instead…
”Thank you. I owe you more than I can ever repay.

You’ve already done so much for me. You’ve been true—“ Her voice broke momentarily. “I can’t even begin to describe how glad I am—“

In this place, she could not go further. Handir had not yet pronounced judgment upon her.

Dispassionately, as if he had no interest in her gratitude, Stave replied, “You are Linden Avery The Chosen. The Ranyhyn have taught me that I cannot refuse your service.”

“Still”, she countered, smiling sadly, “I hope that someday you’ll be sure you did the right thing.”

Because she was determined not to weep, she bowed again, as deeply as before. Then she turned toward the Voice of the Masters.

There she froze. The merciless clarity in his eyes chilled her: it seemed to settle like frost on her bones. She had to swallow a mouthful of dread before she could speak.

Awkwardly she asked, “So what’s it going to be? Are we on the same side?” His gaze covered her with rime. She had to cling to the Staff’s warmth to keep her voice from shaking. “Will you let me have Anele? Will you give me your help?”

“How will the Sleepless Ones refuse?” put in Mahrtiir. His tone held a sting of asperity. “Stave has confirmed the will of the Ranyhyn. Naught else signifies.”

But Handir did not choose to heed the Manethrall. Instead he replied, “Stand aside, Linden Avery. Another matter requires precedence. I will reply when it has been addressed.”
Alright, now for the past 30 some odd years I have been really irked by these Haruchai, but what happens next is the topper on the sundae in my opinion up to this point. They are rigid and blind. This utter resolve that they are superior and right all the time is enough to make me want to just scream. Just who do they think they are???? Didn’t they learn anything from Bannor or the events at Coercri??? I guess I will never understand them, maybe because I know how such absolute thinking leaves one’s mind closed.

Stepping back, Linden moves out of Handir’s way. Three other Humbled move to the Master’s side. Galt approaches Stave, kicks him in the chest. Stave makes no effort to defend himself, takes it. Mahrtiir, with Bhapa and Pahni, begin to rush forward but Linden stops them.
”This is between them.” She understood Galt’s attack. Long ago she had watched the Haruchai pass judgment on Cail. She had feared that their violence would kill him. “Stave has to do this. You know how he feels about help.”
Bah! More Haruchai self-righteousness. Pass judgment…

Clyme was next. He leapt high in the air and drove his elbow down into Stave’s shoulder, nearly sending him to his knees. Clyme withdrew and Branl came forward, attacking at once, punching Stave on his blind side against his scar.
Stave’s head rocked as if he had been clubbed: he barely kept his balance. But he did not repay the blow. The flat stare of his right eye suggested an acceptance more profound than resignation.

{snip}

Moving slowly, the Voice of the Masters stepped in front of Stave.

Linden’s restraint broke. “Oh, come on!” she snapped, although she knew that Stave did not desire her intervention, and would not approve. “How much of your self-righteousness do you think he can stand?” (my opinion exactly)

Neither Handir nor Stave answered her. But the Voice of the Masters may have been tired of her objections. Instead of probing mentally, he addressed Stave aloud.

“You have set yourself against the will of the Masters, when that will has not yet been decided. Indeed, you have endeavored to impose your will upon us, shaming us with your words and your example. But the Masters are not shamed. We will not be shamed. (you should be, Handir…you should be)

“We will consider your words and your example when we are ready to determine our path. But we will no longer heed you. Henceforth you are severed from the Masters, as from all of the Haruchai. When the right of our disapproval has been completed, no hand will be raised against you. If you speak as I do now, you will be answered. But you are excluded from the true speech of the Haurchai and if you call out you will not be heard. Nor will you be permitted to return to your home among the mountains. There will be no place for you. You have declared your allegiance. Now you must abide its outcome.

“This is my word. I will not alter it.”
Oh for sweet mercy’s sake!! I have no respect for these “Masters”. This time, they have really gone too far. From one crazy extreme (the Vow) to another (abolishing Earthpower and all good sense).
Like the Humbled (boy is that ever a miscue), he struck only once. Unlike them, however, he used just the palm of his hand. And his blow seemed easy and fluid, hardly more than a light thrust. Yet Stave burst backward as though he had been kicked by a Ranyhyn. He tumbled through the air; slammed helplessly to the rough stone. For a heartbeat or two, he lay motionless.

Before Linden could start toward him, however, he raised his head. When he had braced his hands on the floor, he climbed slowly to his feet. Bright blood pulsed from the corner of his mouth as he resumed his stance. She could not imagine where he found the strength to remain standing.

The Voice of the Masters held Stave’s gaze for a long moment. Then he turned to Linden. “Be content,” he told her stolidly. “The rite has been completed.”

Blood splashed the front of Stave’s tunic, staining the ochre fabric with darkness. He did not deign to wipe it away.

“You’re wrong,” Linden panted. “It’s not over.” She needed all of her resolve to withhold the fire from the Staff. “It’ll never be over. Someday you’re going to understand that you’ve made a terrible mistake.”
Amen to that.

Yet, with the “rite” completed, Handir refuses to speak anymore of what just occurred. Instead he informs Linden that Haruchai scouts were, at that moment, being chased by a horde of Vile-Spawn (I love that) and with them are two strangers (hmmmmmmmm…who could they be????) toward Revelstone. Handir then releases Anele to Linden and her companions, telling her that all other matters between them will need to remain unresolved at this time. He then leaves the Close to watch the approach of the scouts. Linden rushes to aid Stave…
…”Hurts of the flesh have no significance. The severance from my people is a deeper wound, beyond your succor.” His eye held her stricken gaze without flinching. “In their place, I would have done as they have.”
Oh Stave. Like I said, I will never understand these people. How can he bear it??

Stave leads Linden and the others out of the Close.
As she began the ascent to the entryway, Linden’s sense of loss grew. She felt that she was treading across Trell’s pain; that her boot heels wounded the twisted stone. When she reached the entrance, her mouth had gone dry; and the air beyond the chamber smelled of smoke and ashes, as is something more essential than lamp oil and torches were being consumed.
This paragraph, though seemingly just a descriptive transition from one event to the next, stood out to me like a beacon. Trell?? Wounds?? Something more essential than lamp oil and torches were being consumed?? Not only a flashback reference, but possibly a foreshadow one as well…

Stave leads them through the halls of Revelstone. When Liand tries to express his feelings of guilt for doubting Stave and thinking ill of him, Stave replies…
”We are all shamed, you no more than I”—he glanced at Linden—“and neither more than the Chosen, who should not have been subjected to the disapproval of the Masters.

“Yet you need have no fear of me. I have claimed a place at the side of the Chosen, and will not withdraw from it.”

“I do not doubt you,” Mahrtiir put in gruffly. “You have won my esteem as well, Stave of the Haruchai. The Ramen will never again err by demeaning you.”

Stave nodded, but made no other reply.

I have claimed—Again Linden fought back tears. She feared that she would never be done with weeping. She had only been in the Land for a few days, and already she needed so much forgiveness—

Even Anele had refused to let her heal him.
Stave continues to lead them down the passages of Revelstone, and Linden feels there is no end to them. However, at last they come to the foot of a winding stairwell, and there waiting for them is the Mahdoubt.

What a mystery she is…
Still shadows seemed to trail about the Mahdoubt like wisps of fog. But then she faced Linden with her startling eyes; and at once every scrap and tatter of obscurity dissipated, evaporated by her oblique warmth. Now she became more vivid to Linden’s health-sense than any of her companions; more distinct than the stone of the halls. The Mahdoubt’s presence shone in the dimness, lambent with abundance and implications. She appeared to command a personal dimension which was at once more ordinary and more numinous than any other place in the Keep.

Apparently Mahrtiir had no encountered the Mahdoubt before. He started forward to place himself between Linden and the older woman. But Liand caught his arm and explained quickly, “She is the Mahdoubt. She serves Revelstone. And she has cared for us kindly.”

Mahrtiir peered through the dimness. “She serves?” He sounded surprised. “Yet she is—“ He hesitated. “There is that about her which—“ Then he shook his head. “Perhaps I am mistaken.” To the Mahdoubt, he added, “I crave your pardon. My concerns have misled me.”

Stave said nothing. However, he bowed to the older woman as he had to Linden, acknowledging her worth in spite of his injuries.

The Mahdoubt ignored all of the men. “The lady is thirsty,” she huffed as if to reprove some fault in Revelstone’s hospitality—or in Linden. “She neglects her own needs. Is the Mahdoubt pleased? She is not. Oh, assuredly. Yet it is her burden and her gift to supply care where it is found lacking.”

From within her miswoven robe she produced a flagon of water which she thrust unceremoniously at Linden.

As Linden accepted it, the Mahdoubt continued. “The lady must not delay. Peril awaits her. Peril and pain, most assuredly. Yet the Mahdoubt will hinder her a moment. A little moment.”

The woman stepped closer. “Heed her, lady,” she urged, whispering. “The Masters know not what they do.” She appeared to believe that Stave and the others could not hear her. “Nor does the lady.” She sighed lugubriously. “Nor does the Mahdoubt, alas.”

Then she breathed with an air of intensity, “This, however, she knows assuredly. Be cautious of love. It misleads. There is a glamour upon it which binds the heart to destruction.”

Linden stared at her. “What do you mean? I don’t understand.”

The Mahdoubt did not answer. Instead she turned and walked away. As she moved, she appeared to wrap herself in shadows so that she slipped from sight almost at once.

Be cautious of love?

“Strange—“ Mahrtiir murmured, gazing after the woman. “For a moment—a moment only—I seemed to see another in her place. Yet the seeming was brief. It mystifies me.”

“Stave--?” Linden asked without knowing how to put her question into words.

“She is the Mahdoubt,” he replied stolidly. “She serves Revelstone. Naught else is certain of her.”
Be cautious of love. It misleads. There is a glamour upon it which binds the heart to destruction.

Find me

Remember, I am dead.

Stave leads them up the staircase to a balcony over looking the courtyard above the inner gates. There, after crossing a wooden bridge to reach the walled projection on the other side, they looked out beyond the Keep’s Plateau to the bare plain. And there they saw the horde of Vile-Spawn, spouting green from the Ill-Earth Stone, chasing or herding, the small band of scouts o horseback toward the Keep. And with the scouts were the two “strangers”. But, they are not strangers to Linden at all. Falling to her knees and dropping the Staff, she realizes who they are.
One was Jeremiah: her son beyond question. As the Master’s mount pounded the dirt, the waved his arms, urging the horse to run faster, and shouted encouragement to the other riders.

Even from so far away, Linden could see that his eyes were afire with excitement.

The other stranger was unmistakably Thomas Covenant.

Here ends
The Runes of the Earth
Book one of
“The Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant”
The story continues in Book Two
Fatal Revanant
And to quote Mr. Donaldson himself in an email response he sent me requarding a GI comment I posted after reading the first snippet of Chapter 1 in “Fatal Revanant”…

Hold on, it’s going to be quiet a ride.

I’m ready….
And I believe in you
altho you never asked me too
I will remember you
and what life put you thru.


~fly fly little wing, fly where only angels sing~

~this world was never meant for one as beautiful as you~

...for then I could fly away and be at rest. Sweet rest, Mom. We all love and miss you.

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Post by dlbpharmd »

Me too! Great dissection, Furlsy! And thanks!
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Post by Usivius »

that WAS a great dissection. :)
Nice job.
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Post by wayfriend »

Thanks for starting us off, FF.
Furls Fire wrote:The Runes of the Earth; Part 2, Chapter 12: Find Me
Watch the title of this chapter. Donaldson is telling us something right there. Not "Find Me" but "Find Me". (At least, it's underlined in my book.) He reminds us to think of those words now. And he emphasizes that word "Find".

This has been a mystery to us for three years. We know that Covenant said, "find me", but we don't know why we need to be reminded now, as he approaches Revelstone harried by Demondim.

After three years, here's my guess: He is hinting that we have not really found Covenant yet, no matter what we may be thinking. Not because Covenant is not approaching, but because, as I now suspect, there are more layers between us and the Covenant who wants to be found.
Furls Fire wrote:They are rigid and blind. This utter resolve that they are superior and right all the time is enough to make me want to just scream. Just who do they think they are????
Well, you get your feelings across, anyway. :)

But I want to point out something. IMO, the Masters did not banish Stave (what else would you call it?) from a basis of right vs wrong. They did it from a basis of unity. The Masters, apparently, do not tolerate independence among their own kind. Stave had passed an unsoliticed and untolerated judgement - that Linden should be served. And the Masters are afronted at his assumption that it is his position to do so. All judgement must pass from the Voice of the Masters.

Just like we are not surprised at their expression of distaste - the striking of blows - we should have expected this kind of rigidness. The ultimate means of supressing emotions and compassion is to place all right of judgement and control at the service of another. Lacking anything like Lords or Ringweilders, they have chosen one among themselves. All judgement and control flows from Handir. This fails to suffice, for if nothing else Handir is a Haruchai as well. Maybe they even know it.

The Masters are undoubtedly facing a crisis of faith.

Stave, undoubtedly, will lead them through it.

Being excluded from the general Haruchai "hive mind", and becoming a more independent person, seems like an important step on Stave's journey, despite how harsh it seems now.
Furls Fire wrote:Instead he informs Linden that Haruchai scouts were, at that moment, being chased by a horde of Vile-Spawn (I love that) and with them are two strangers (hmmmmmmmm…who could they be????) toward Revelstone.
Yes.

But even Linden has caught on that he has called them "strangers". This is another mystery we have not solved for three years: why does Stave and Handir call Covenant and Jeremiah "strangers"?

Surely they recognize Covenant as Covenant?

Through 2.25 Chronicles, the Haruchai have been certain of whom they serve. And they know no shades of grey. Either they are certain who you are, and trust you completely, or they admit to nothing, trust nothing. To wit, all the rigamarole for Stave to accept Linden as "the" Linden, The Chosen, earlier in Mithil Stonedown.

So if they withhold their assertion that Covenant is Covenant, it is significant.

And if this happens in a chapter entitled Find Me, this is quadruply significant! If the Haruchai are correct in withholding their recognition of Covenant, then perhaps we have not found him indeed.
Furls Fire wrote:When Liand tries to express his feelings of guilt for doubting Stave and thinking ill of him, Stave replies…
”We are all shamed, you no more than I”—he glanced at Linden—“and neither more than the Chosen, who should not have been subjected to the disapproval of the Masters.
Here it is clear. Stave considers the Master's wrong. That's why he was banished by his kind.
Furls Fire wrote:However, at last they come to the foot of a winding stairwell, and there waiting for them is the Mahdoubt.

What a mystery she is…
Yet another three year old mystery. This chapter is where they all hit us, isn't it.

You know what I noticed this time?

Linden had been thinking about how thirsty she was. And here is the Mahdoubt, who just happens to have a flaggon of water. "The lady is thirsty."

So, the Mahdoubt's senses are somewhat keen. Not only is she johnny-on-the-spot to relieve Linden's thirst, but she's very timely with her pointed advice about Love and Destruction.

And she knows about the the big picture, too. "The Masters know not what they do." So she is allied with Linden and Stave against the Masters, whom she doesn't think well of. "The lady must not delay. Peril awaits her. Peril and pain, most assuredly." So she knows that there's not just a sunny reunion ahead for Linden, Covenant, and Jeremiah.

So we should take it seriously when she says, "Nor does the lady". She says Linden knows not what she does, either. As she's heading into pain and peril.

Okay, I'm worried.

And, since someone's got to do it, let's talk about what Linden and Mahrtiir saw when the saw the Mahdoubt in that dark hall.

I think that Mahrtiir saw a figure of such power that he was surprised to find that she was considered a serving woman. I don't think (any more) that he saw something sinister... I think that he stepped between Linden and the Mahdoubt merely because he saw the power there, and had grown to be distrustful in Revelstone, and so he adopted a bodyguard's position. Hence, he did not draw a weapon, and hence also, he accepted Stave's explanation without clarification.
Even from so far away, Linden could see that his eyes were afire with excitement.

Okay, here's something else I noticed this time.

The Demondim are chasing down four riders with the Illearth Stone literally shaking the earth and the foundations of Revelstone with its might. Only four Haruchai stand between Jeremiah and the Demondim. Emerald bolts are flying about. The horses are overburdened and ready to collapse - only fear and goading is keeping them moving.

And Jeremiah is excited?!?!

Not scared, not worried, not anxious. Excited. Waving his arms, shouting encouragement, and, to all appearances, having a great time.

That's freaky.
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Post by Tulizar »

Wayfriend wrote:The Demondim are chasing down four riders with the Illearth Stone literally shaking the earth and the foundations of Revelstone with its might. Only four Haruchai stand between Jeremiah and the Demondim. Emerald bolts are flying about. The horses are overburdened and ready to collapse - only fear and goading is keeping them moving.

And Jeremiah is excited?!?!

Not scared, not worried, not anxious. Excited. Waving his arms, shouting encouragement, and, to all appearances, having a great time.

That's freaky.
That does seem a little scary doesn't it?

When I first read this I didn't pay much attention to it. It seemed natural that Linden could read the excitement in Jeremiah's eyes since he's been unable to display any sort of emotion for years. The fact that he was excited seemed normal to me; Jeremiah is a boy on a wild adventure who, before now, was trapped in his own silent world. I might be excited by just about anything too. However, now that you mention it, being chased by demons and bolts of power might actually scare me. But Linden did read excitement in his eyes.

Perhaps Jeremiah is not afraid of anything, or is protected by someone or something? Maybe he is excited because he knows he'll be reunited with Linden soon.
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Post by Relayer »

I didn't notice it until now either, but I think it's more than reuniting w/ Linden, and even if he were protected, I don't think he would be excited if he knew others could be in danger. More likely he knows something... the Demondim are on his side, or maybe they and Jeremiah are on Foul's side (wouldn't Linden just freak on that one). Or... ?? I still find it hard to believe that the Demondim don't appear to even try to strike them down with a blast from the Stone - just as they didn't do so in the past or during the battle outside the Gates. It appears that they withdrew the previous night in order to allow the riders to come to Revelstone.

----------
Why doesn't someone simply ASK Mahrtiir what he thinks he saw in the Mahdoubt?

I can understand that she could look at Linden and determine that she's thirsty. Anyone w/ healthsense could. But, you brought up a good point - she already has water with her! (or can she materialize it on the spot?!?)

----------
“You have set yourself against the will of the Masters, when that will has not yet been decided. Indeed, you have endeavored to impose your will upon us, shaming us with your words and your example. But the Masters are not shamed. We will not be shamed...
It appears that Stave really went about this the wrong way. Surely he knew what would happen when he declared himself. First, why didn't he share his knowledge w/ the Masters using mind-speech? They would then have shared the experience he had at the horserite, not just his words. And second, even in words, he could've left it open for them to decide. Then, if they did not accept the Will of the Ranyhyn, Stave could declare himself for Linden. So, why does he do it this way?

Was there more information in the horserite, that he hasn't shared? Is there something he knows about the Masters (or a specific Master, such as Handir) that he wants to disassociate from? We have no real hints about it, yet...
Unlike them, however, he used just the palm of his hand. And his blow seemed easy and fluid, hardly more than a light thrust. Yet Stave burst backward as though he had been kicked by a Ranyhyn. He tumbled through the air; slammed helplessly to the rough stone.
Yes, Handir became the Voice through combat and is the most adept Master. But this seems far and above the skill or strength of a Haruchai. Is there more to Handir than it appears? He's seems to be as powerful as Esmer.
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Post by dlbpharmd »

Why doesn't someone simply ASK Mahrtiir what he thinks he saw in the Mahdoubt?
Hopefully, Linden will - early in FR. ;)
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Relayer wrote:I didn't notice it until now either, but I think it's more than reuniting w/ Linden, and even if he were protected, I don't think he would be excited if he knew others could be in danger. More likely he knows something... the Demondim are on his side, or maybe they and Jeremiah are on Foul's side (wouldn't Linden just freak on that one). Or... ??
Maybe he has been conscious this whole time in the real world, but couldn't ever show it? Like being in a coma, but still hearing everything around you? Now, that inability has been lifted. He can react to stimuli (and presumably act willfully), so naturally his reaction to the world is one of excitement--even during times of danger. Now he can finally do something about it. He is empowered. I imagine it's like Hile Troy being able to see.
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Post by Relayer »

Malik23 wrote:Maybe he has been conscious this whole time in the real world, but couldn't ever show it? Like being in a coma, but still hearing everything around you?
I agree... at some level he is aware. He can recognize Linden or Sandy taking the first block off his constructs, and that it means to put it away. But how?
Malik23 wrote:I imagine it's like Hile Troy being able to see.
I never thought about that parallel before. Nice one!
dlbpharmd wrote:
Why doesn't someone simply ASK Mahrtiir what he thinks he saw in the Mahdoubt?
Hopefully, Linden will - early in FR.
No sh*t. But I'll wager that she's distracted and forgets all about it <sigh>
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Post by Zarathustra »

Something about Anele bothers me--specifically, Linden's reasons for such extravagant loyalty and protection. Aside from Linden just being a nice person who protects helpless people, Donaldson has given us several reasons for her believing Anele is crucial to her own personal success. And that's in addition to his importance in saving the Land in general; Anele is the Land's "last hope," or something like that. So aside from his general importance to the Land, Linden specifically thinks that she won't be able to find the Staff without Anele (it was in Hints, I believe, where she thinks this). But now that the Staff is found, Linden thinks in this chapter that Anele will prove crucial for her quest to find her son. What? When was that part of his importance? Why does she suddenly think this at the end of the book, when no mention was made of it the entire time?

And why all these separate reasons for Anele's importance, anyway? Why this constant revision of his significance? To me, this sounds like reasoning after the fact. Hindsight justification (similar to my complaints about Linden needing the Staff). As soon as one crucial task is completed (retrieving the Staff), a task that Linden feels is impossible without Anele, we are given yet another reason why he's still crucial to her needs. And yet, Anele was useless in retrieving the Staff. He wasn't crucial at all. Linden was wrong to suspect this. Donaldson's build-up to Anele's importance was just a reason to bring Anele along. It had no payoff.

There's only one reason why an author would continuously justify a character's importance with new, previously unmentioned reasons: that character is not justifying his own importance. Anele does nothing. Aside from being possessed every now and again, the son of Sunder is helpless and ineffectual. Sure, his possession might give them insight into their enemies, as Linden argued in the last chapter. But that in itself is yet another reason for his significance which we haven't been given before. Why was he important before we were given that reason?

I just get the feeling that Donaldson knows Anele will be important. He has something for him to do at a later point, but absolutely nothing for him to do now. So he's got to constantly justify keeping him as part of the story.

And really, we could say the same thing about Liand, Bhapa, Pahni, Mhartiir--hell, most of Linden's companions. Did we ever get this feeling from Bannor or Foamfollower? Of course not. Covenant's companions felt just as necessary as Covenant himself. He didn't surround himself with a bunch of pointless people just because he cared about them. People he could hold hands with when he was scared, or hug when he felt emotional.

Sorry to be so critical. I was just thinking about my overall impressions of Runes now that we're done with the dissection. And I think I can sum it all up with one word: unnecessary. From the characters, to the Land's crisis, to the addition of a third Chronicles themselves . . . I feel like it's all unnecessary. I still don't see why this story had to be told, or why these particular people must be involved in the telling. Sure, it's only book 1. But by the time TWL ended, and the coercri happened, I felt like that book had to exist in order to complete the 1st Chrons. Even one book into the 2nd Chrons, you could see why that story was necessary. Covenant's answer in PTP wasn't sufficient; he still had issues to settle with the Despiser. But Runes feels like it is still justifying itself, rewriting the reasons for its own existence even in the last dozen or so pages.
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Post by Relayer »

I can't really disagree w/ your main point... I've argued elsewhere that Linden's instant support and protection of Anele on Kevin's Watch, seemed a bit much. She had no idea what was up in the Land, yet she totally throws in w/ this crazy old man? He could easily have been a servant of Foul, or who knows what. Here's a few thoughts though.

When Anele is possessed by Foul again after escaping from Mithil Stonedown, Linden realizes that Anele may be the only connection she has to her son. This is where that thought process comes from.

Anele wasn't directly helpful in finding the Staff since it wasn't in his cave, but his knowledge may have helped the Ranyhyn or ur-viles navigate to the right time and location. Remember, they left from the Verge and appeared in the South Plains. How did they know where to go? It had to be from Anele's memories. And once the ur-viles found the waynhim cave, it was only because of Anele's suffering that they were allowed entry.

I agree that he will have some huge significance later (when he recovers his mind?) and needs to be brought along. But he's also supplied a lot of background info with all his reading of stone. (it's almost like the Ancillary Documentation chapters in the Gap, a quick way to expand the Land's history and give hints about the skurj, croyel, Kastyenessen, etc)
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Post by Zarathustra »

Relayer wrote:When Anele is possessed by Foul again after escaping from Mithil Stonedown, Linden realizes that Anele may be the only connection she has to her son. This is where that thought process comes from.
That's a good point that I forgot. However, part of the reason I forgot it has to be at least partially attributed to Donaldson mentioning it at the beginning, and then not mentioning it again until the last chapter (and then as if it were a new idea Linden had).
Anele wasn't directly helpful in finding the Staff since it wasn't in his cave, but his knowledge may have helped the Ranyhyn or ur-viles navigate to the right time and location. Remember, they left from the Verge and appeared in the South Plains. How did they know where to go? It had to be from Anele's memories. And once the ur-viles found the waynhim cave, it was only because of Anele's suffering that they were allowed entry.
Yes, his memories helped pick the right time and place. But after that, there was no reason for him to go along. The ur-viles actually found it. And though Anele's pain may have softened up the waynhim, it was actually Linden reaching out to the Staff and using it to heal the damaged waynhim that convinced them to allow entrance to their cave. But I'll concede that perhaps they wouldn't have revealed their own suffering member if Linden hadn't presented Anele.
I agree that he will have some huge significance later (when he recovers his mind?) and needs to be brought along. But he's also supplied a lot of background info with all his reading of stone. (it's almost like the Ancillary Documentation chapters in the Gap, a quick way to expand the Land's history and give hints about the skurj, croyel, Kastyenessen, etc)
Yes, he does feel like an expository tool. And that's part of the problem: it feels like he is there because the author needs him to be there, not because the characters or the story needs him. Was Linden's presence in the 2nd Chronicles given multiple explanations over the course of TWL? No. It was clear from the outset that she was attracted to Covenant because he had some hidden insight or strength which she needed in order to face her own past and her own problems. Her need for Covenant (and hence her presence in the Land) never changed. It was never revised according to the situation and tasks they were accomplishing. She did discover a new "purpose" in making the Staff and healing the Land, but this can easily be seen as her finding the means to heal herself, if the Land is really her own "mindscape." And that was the problem all along: she had to learn how to forgive herself and those who wronged her; to view healing itself as an affirmation of life, rather than an aversion to death and guilt.
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Post by Relayer »

Malik23 wrote:And though Anele's pain may have softened up the waynhim, it was actually Linden reaching out to the Staff and using it to heal the damaged waynhim that convinced them to allow entrance to their cave.
You're right, I forgot that part.
Yes, he does feel like an expository tool. And that's part of the problem: it feels like he is there because the author needs him to be there, not because the characters or the story needs him. Was Linden's presence in the 2nd Chronicles given multiple explanations over the course of TWL? No.
That's a good point too. And I pretty much agree with you, but I guess the only other way to do it would be to have left Anele out of the story until he's needed... but that would then raise a whole other series of concerns when he suddenly appeared in book 3. I guess I look at it that in some ways this chronicles is also a mystery and so SRD is writing in lots of things that we have to figure out. I trust that in the end it will all make sense.

Think of it this way... except for a few instances, Vain was essentially a non-character for 2 1/2 books, to the extent that we might go 10-20 pages without even reading his name. Even when I've re-read it I sometimes literally forget he's there. The only thing we ever had to go on was that the Dead said he was important. I see Anele in a similar light, except that he actually speaks :-)
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Post by Zarathustra »

Relayer, you keep making very good points. I was thinking about Vain, too, when I wrote my posts. Why didn't Vain both me in a similar way? He obviously wasn't much of a character--but I loved him as a character. Weird.

Actually, I liked the brazen way that Donaldson didn't constantly justify Vain's presence. Donaldson presented Vain's rationale once, and then stepped back and "dared" us to accept it. That took balls. It reeked of confidence. But Donaldson's multiple justifications now imply uncertainty and lack of confidence. The mystery of Anele doesn't feel like it has a definitive answer like Vain did.

But Anele certainly couldn't have been given the "Vain treatment" all over again. Readers would complain that it's just like Vain. And I disagree with you that the only other option would be to leave him out until he's needed. If his reasons for being there didn't feel ad hoc, they wouldn't bother me. I think all my complaints would vanish if we were shown why, specifically, Linden thinks he's necessary to find Jeremiah. Or why, specifically, she thinks he is the key to saving the Land. With Vain, we knew he had a purpose, though that purpose was intentionally hidden. We knew he had a purpose because he was made for a purpose. With Anele, all we have are the words of a crazy man, and the hunches of an emotional woman.

I think that Donaldson did Anele right when he revealed him to be the son of Sunder and Hollian. This was Anele's best moment. It was powerful and enlightening. We learn what he lost, and how badly it affected him. He was important (at one time) because of who he was and what he inherited. But those issues aren't important any more. So Donaldson has to invent new ones. It would be like Vain fulfilling his purpose, and yet still hanging around waiting to fulfill his purpose (if that were possible--since his "purpose" was to turn into the Staff).

I appreciate that Anele is a mystery. I just don't like how his mystery is handled. Vain is one way to do it right. Linden is another. We learned about her motivations early on--chapter 1 of TWL. But we didn't learn the mystery of those motivations until TOT. This is a strange mix of certainty and uncertainty: we know she committed murder, but we don't know how horrible and intimate it actually was, and how her parents were involved. What we know and what we don't know were linked in a logical, necessary way that didn't feel like Donaldson was making it up all along, and revising it along the way.

Oh well, I guess I've gone on long enough on this issue. Really, it's just a matter of my own personal taste. I suppose it doesn't bother anyone else.
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Post by Relayer »

Thanks Malik. The only thing I can think of is that maybe it's not SRD who needs to justify Anele's presence, but Linden... everything we read is from her POV, and she's certainly spent plenty of time trying to justify her "good cannot come from evil means" feelings, among many others. Maybe this is a similar situation and she needs to keep reexamining her need for him? (Admittedly the text doesn't support this much, but hey... ;-) )

Covenant never needed to justify Vain's presence, because he simply trusted his Dead. And soon after, Hamako said that the waynhim greatly desired his purpose. In Anele's case, Linden *hopes* that because he can channel the Despiser, maybe she can use this connection to trace backwards and find Jere... a tenuous hope at best, as she thinks to herself.
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Post by wayfriend »

I don't know about all this.

Initially, Linden chose to take Anele to free him from the Masters, who in her eyes treated him unjustly and harmed him. Then, before getting to anywhere else, she found out that he was possibly "the last hope for the Land", and that he was the Son of Linden and Hollian, and that he made Covenant accessible.

I'm not at any loss for seeing motivation.

And it's not like Linden ever got somewhere where she could consider dropping Anele off at a rehab. Once she agreed to be responsible for Anele, she really had no place to leave him until she got to the Verge. And then I think she DID consider leaving him with the Ramen. But then she discovered she needed him to find the Staff. And so, again, there was no pleace she could safely leave him until Revelstone.
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Post by Zarathustra »

Wayfriend, you're right. There's certainly no lack of motivation. In fact, that's the problem I was having, that we keep getting more reasons to keep Anele around, more reasons why he's crucial.

Not to make this political--just trying use an example to which you can relate--it's like Bush's reasons for going to war in Iraq. If they keep changing, and keep growing, doesn't it make you suspicious of the original reasons? Doesn't it sound like he's making it up all along because he recognizes the insufficiency (or the appearance of insufficiency to his critics) of his original reasons? When someone constantly justifies something, you begin to wonder why they feel the need to do so. It begins to sound ad hoc, rather than planned all along.

I'm sure Donaldson does have a plan for Anele. And his reasoning is most certainly well-thought out and justifiable. I just don't like the execution of it.
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Good post.

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Post by wayfriend »

Malik23 wrote:In fact, that's the problem I was having, that we keep getting more reasons to keep Anele around, more reasons why he's crucial.
Ah. I see.
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Post by Aleksandr »

Was Linden's presence in the 2nd Chronicles given multiple explanations over the course of TWL? No.


I beg to differ. We had three explanations for Linden being there:
1) She was chosen by the Creator (we know this from the very first pages of TWL)
2) She was chosen by Foul (so Gibbon and much later Foul insist)
3) She was there more or less by accident, because she was with TC at the Summoning (and maybe this has something to do with Jeremiah too?)

As for TC he assumed that Linden's main purpose was to serve as a physician and to keep him alive; he arrogated entirely to himself the task of healing the Land, until the disaster at the One Tree, and then he tried to send her back to save his life and spare her the rest of Foul's manipulations.
The maddening thing is that all three explanations are true, paradoxical as that may be.

The problem with Runes, IMO, is that it reads like a long prologue and doesnlt give usmuch info, not even the real danger this time around. By the ebnd of LFB and by the end of TWL (even by the end of "soothtell" where SRD originally intended the first book to end) we know what's going on and have all the main concepts fkleshed out even though plkenty of surprises (Hile Troy, Elena, jheherrin; Elohim, croyel and Sandgorgons) are yet to be met up with.
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