Kevin's Watch

**I have often described Mordant's Need to friends as "an adult fairy tale". Indeed, the vehicle of mirrors used by SRD in the books "congers" (ha,ha!) up "images" (OH no..) of the kids walking through the wardrobe and suddenly finding themselves in Narnia or Alice Through the Looking Glass. To some degree I have even likened Adept Havelock to the Madhatter and Master Quillon to the Doormouse-would that make Geraden the White Rabbit? Yes, at first, it appears that there is some kind of crazy "tea party" going on in Orison, when Terisa arrives, in lieu of King Joyse's sanity, but here all similarities end. Bitter wars are pending, serious manipulations and myriad plots are unfolding, and the Congery is not totally stocked w/friendly folk, either...
**The Congery is group of "Imagers"-men, assembled by King Joyse in Orison (some there by there own will, some not) who constuct mirrors in attempt to view alternate parts of their world, other worlds and other dimensions. Mirrors, in Mordant's world, do not behave like ours-they do not reflect, they let you see what going on in other places and act as portals of translation. What is tranlation? Well, here is where the science gets tricky...Is it only the creator of the mirror who can reach through the mirror to the otherside (like Geraden popping into our world and pulling Terisa into Mordant)? Are chants and invocations needed? Can others work with the same mirror? Can you translate things into a mirror and make them stay there? What can you bring through the mirrors to where you are? Is there a good reason from imaging at all-like translating water for drought and food during famine? Is it dependant on what degree of "imaging" experience you have-or can just anyone do it? What was King Joyse's real purpose in creating the Congery? And the "science" is much, much more complex than that!
**So, let us travel to the dungeons of Orison where mirrors are made, augeries are cast and the Congery convienes. Almost everything in Mordant's Need is done with "smoke and mirrors" let's explore the basics--mirrors, Masters and Arch Imagers--and who's who and who's not...and confront the real peril of the books as stated by Geraden to Terisan on p. 24 of The Mirror of Her Dreams:

Somewhere in the realm--somewhere where we can't find them--there are renegade Imagers, Masters of mirrors, and they're opening their glasses more and more to every kind of horror and foulness. They're experimenting on Mordant, trying to find in their mirrors those attacks and evils which will be most virulent to the peace, stability, and life King Joyse forged in his prime. And these Masters seem to have no fear of the chaos that comes from unleasing powers that cannot be controlled

...

Danlo,
I really like the 'Alice Through the Looking Glass' analogy, I never though of it that way!

Here are some of my thoughts about imagery and translations.
I saw imagery as a metaphor of technology in our world. Isn't technology kind of like magic? I mean, take TV for instance, it shows you what is going on in other parts of the world, like the flat mirrors in Mordant. Do most people know how a TV works? We are just so used to having them around that we take it for granted.
SRD presents the dillema of development and use of technology through the idea of imagery which is technology in Mordant, like atomic energy for instance, is technology in our world. Technology can be used for good and for bad. But when one developes technology one never knows if it might land in the 'wrong' hands. What will happen if someone crazy like Bin-Laden gets his hands on an atomic bomb? Will Geraden and Terisa be there to stop him?

Danlo asked:

What was King Joyce's real purpose in creating the Congery?

I think the congery was a democratic way to control and monitor imagery. It was kind of like universities in our world, were the young can learn and rise in rank until they become "staff members" = masters. The congery is also the institution that sets the ethics and morals of imagery. Somehow, though, this democratic system didn't work. It allowed insiders to take advantage of knowledge and resources for thier own personal benefit.

pitchwife

really intersting perspective .. I agree that the congery may be analogous to a managing body .. but was it really democratic? .. a true democracy is government by all the people .. directly or by popularly elected representatives .. the congery however was an elitist body of artisans .. which one needs to qualify to become a member of and then be trained in the use of imagery to graduate within the rank and file of the organisation. And if we look for analogous connections what was Joyse's role?? a benevolent dictator?? Didnt Musolini once describe himself as a benevolent dictator?? anyhoo .. moving along ..

... I really like the technology analogy .. yet imagery could realise substance where today we possess no technology that can do that .. ie replicate/transport real substance .. food/materials etc.. So to me 'imagery was a technology of a far more substantial kind than any we possess in our world .. to date.

but technology in general .. developing atomic energy and weapons of mass destruction .. in good or bad hands they remain the same threat of evil to the user. True a character possessed with evil intent .. like OBL .. would undoubtedly put such technology in his hands to the most vile use .. but any use of such technology remains vile in no matter whose hands.

Some technology is indeed evil dependant soley on the user .. ie: the internet .. a useful tool of communication but perverse in the hands of those who wish to advertise philosophical evils such as:- 'most effective means of suicide' [popular Korean teenage site] .. and 'how to construct explosives' .. 'how to harm others' and hard porn sites and a whole slew of other damaging and corruptive material that can be posted by those who wish only this outcome.

I also liked the Alice - Looking glass analogy .. thats how I saw MN too .. definitely an adult fairy tale ..

the congery were definitely a governing body of some sort .. and like any government body .. were made up of a range of individuals .. some devoted to the cause of right and some corrupt and self-serving and definitley possessed of a political agenda.

Great topic, Danlo!

Didnt Musolini once describe himself as a benevolent dictator??

No, no -- that was me, to my kids.

Moving right along...

I agree that MN is a fairy tale for grownups, and I like the analogy of technology in our world to imagery in Mordant. And I, too, have a problem with calling the Congery a democracy. Sure, there was some learning going on (tho we didn't get to see much of it), so it was a little like a university, but it sounds like there was more one-on-one instruction than actual classes. More like the Jedi Academy, maybe?

Anyway, the other question was, why did Joyse create the Congery? I think that Joyse was a smart guy who wanted to keep the kingdom's Imagers right where he could see them! When you're dealing with someone with equal or greater power than your own, better to befriend them -- keeps them thinking nicely of you if things start to go bad. And in fact, that's how it worked -- the Congery rallied to help Mordant (if not exactly Joyse, at that point).

Brilliant conversation y'all, stunning!! Bravo, Bravo!

Skywier wrote:

but was it really democratic? .. a true democracy is government by all the people .. directly or by popularly elected representatives .. the congery however was an elitist body of artisans

I tend to agree with you Skyweir, it was an elitist body, obviously they didn't accept anyone who wanted to join. I think they held votes to accept new members. Didn't Master Eremis nominate Geraden for Mastership at one point, but the congery voted against? I also reacall that master Barsonage was elected. I don't remember if he had the authority to make decisions, or they were made by voting. I think I remember the congery voting on whether to translate the champion. So I guess that it was a democracy of elitists.

What bothers me is that this system relies on the integrity and well meaning of the members. It's like introducing a hawk into a society of doves. Doves live peacefully with each other and don't develope strategies for defense. When a hawk enters the equation the doves get butchered.

pitchwife

ok i c where you are going with the democracy assertion now .. the congery ran democratically?

Well as you say they did hold elections re: decisions and members being advanced and such .. so loosely speaking they appeared a democratically run body.

Master Quillon (I think that was the one) .. was he collaborating with Joyse and Havelock .. ? My memory fails me its been so long since I have read MN now .. was Quillon in on Joyse's feigned stupidity?

I agree that the congery was akin to a university .. where novices learn from seniors and can if they master their art .. progress to become masters themselves .. cos that is at it was .. from memory ..

Could they not c their reflections in mirrors?--When Terisa asked Geraden if he ever saw his reflection in water he said, "we are taught 2 avoid such things" Subject: flat mirrors--Geraden is absolutely amazed that Terisa has so many flat mirrors in her apt! Havelock went mad using a flat mirror and didn't Vagel do something w/flat mirrors that he talks about near the end of AMRT? Other than that didn't all mirrors have 2 b somehow curved?

The ability to use a flat mirror is what made one an Adept. (I think that's right. Maybe it's time for me to read the books again...) And yes, they had to make their mirrors curved, and the way the mirror was shaped (and the ability of the mirror's maker) determined the scene it showed.

I think Adept had 2 do w/level of skill--Vagel was an ArchImager and I think Geraden and Terisa were called ArchImagers @ the end--maybe ArchImager has 2 do w/doing something completely unheard of b4 w/mirrors..help! we need clarification!!!

To the best of my memory Geraden was an Adept at the end, and Terisa an arch imager. Probably arch imager has to do with the ability to use flat mirrors.
But Terisa had an additional ability, to bring up places in another time, like the time when she saw the same place in spring while it was winter.
Did other imagers have this ability?
-pitchwife

U r quite right Pitch! perhaps ArchImager refers 2 1 not of the Congery?

is it my imagination or are the dates off again?

Well I stupidly gave away my copies of MN years ago, but have been so impressed by the discussions on this board that I'm going to get new copies this week. This is such a great site!

Eddy wrote:Well I stupidly gave away my copies of MN years ago, but have been so impressed by the discussions on this board that I'm going to get new copies this week. This is such a great site!

I bought my first copies a while ago and really need to start reading them. I myself would like to comment on more than just TCTC and have acquired the Gp series as well. Now if only I had a months vacation

Of course, none of my local bookshops have got the damned things in stock, so now I'll have to search online...

First, let me say thank you to those of you who created this group! I have been just dying to "chat" with other Donaldson fans.

AAAH Mordant...one of my favorite places. I read the two books at least once a year, sometimes two. I have three sets of books. A hardcover copy, and two paperback sets. One is so ragged that the cover is hanging on by a thread, but I just can't bear to throw it away.

For me, I see the creation of the Congery as simply as I see it stated in the story. Joyse, seeing the distructive power of translations saught to "control" the masters yet unite them to a common good. By bringing them together, he gave them resources to make them stronger and put them in a place to be watched so that things didn't get out of hand. I believe that by giving them the ability to vote on matters he was simply letting them feel like they had a certain choices. Truely he (King Joyse) could have stoped them at any time. He chose not to so that the traitors could be exposed.

I've never really drawn any parallels to the story and other stories or real life. Mostly I take it at face value. What really holds me are the underlying principles of growth as a person. Learning who you are through adversity. Being pushed to the limits of who we are yet being able to retain that which makes us loveable. Geraden in particular demonstrates this so well. Also the issue of having to trust someone beyond what you see or understand. That is a powerful test. I often wonder how I would fare.

Well said and welcome Lady Genni ... it is funny cos we spend a lot of time here trying to find ananlogies for everything to real life examples .. that I fear we overlook the very simple facts staring us clear in the face!!

I like your growth through adversity parrallel .. Geraden certainly grew into his ultimate role .. and so does Terisa .. Joyse does too even .. infact everyone does duh!

What is AAAH Mordant? Is that another discussion forum dedicated to MN?

If so can you post the link to it ..

Welcome aboard Lady G .. it is good to have another MN fan .. and it is always great to have another SRD fan here ..

(hee hee)

"AAAH Mordant!" was meant as an exclaimation. Sorry I'm a bit of a novice with message boards. It was meant like a sigh.

aaahh? ahhh? eh?

Thanks for the welcome. I am really happy to find you. I just love Donaldson and I know very few people who have even heard of him let alone read his books.

As other's have posted, it's his characters that really grab you. That's probably why I see the stories as the growth and development of the characters vs the plot or events. Make sense?

BTW...Why did your message post three times?

Probably Sky's comp was slow and Sky was impatient and hit submit 3xs--the board may act like nothing's happening, when in fact it is...Welcome my Lady!!! Always xciting 2 have another MN afficiando!!