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Catholicism reverts (again)
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:17 am
by Lord Mhoram
At a time when the Roman Catholic Church struggles for membership in the West, and when calls for reform come from every circle, His Holiness Benedict XVI offers this solution:
VATICAN CITY -- Pope Benedict XVI on Saturday removed restrictions on celebrating the old Latin mass, reviving a rite all but swept away by the reforms of the Second Vatican Council.
The decision, a victory for traditional, conservative Roman Catholics, came over the objections of liberal-minded Catholics and angered Jews because the Tridentine mass contains a Good Friday prayer for their conversion.
Benedict issued a document authorizing parish priests to celebrate the Tridentine rite if a ''stable group of faithful'' requests it.
The Anti-Defamation League called the move a ''body blow to Catholic-Jewish relations,'' the Jewish news agency JTA reported.
The Simon Wiesenthal Center urged Benedict to point out publicly that such phrases ''are now entirely contrary to the teaching of the church.''
In reviving the rite, Benedict was reaching out to the followers of an excommunicated ultratraditionalist, the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, who split with the Vatican over Vatican II.
AP
link
Is this religiously altruistic?
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:21 am
by Avatar
Very interesting. A reaction to increasing religious conservatism in other quarers perhaps?
--A
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:15 am
by Holsety
The decision, a victory for traditional, conservative Roman Catholics, came over the objections of liberal-minded Catholics and angered Jews because the Tridentine mass contains a Good Friday prayer for their conversion.
I'm sorta annoyed at the church actively encouraging that mindset. On a large scale, like jewish groups and denominations communicating with catholic churches or whatever (I assume), it's really tough to deal with someone if they're looking at you like the perfect target for a smattering of holy water. It'd be better if they recognized that the jewish religion is probably not going to just assimilate into the catholic church or christianity by next christmas.
At the same time, I actually respect the right for religious people to feel like their way is THE way, and express that feeling, as long as they don't actually force people into joining. (I don't feel this way.)
Very interesting. A reaction to increasing religious conservatism in other quarers perhaps?
What I'm not really sure of is whether benedict is following what most catholics want, or if he's pushing them towards increasing conservatism. Whatever though.
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:19 am
by Avatar
He was a famously conservative Cardinal, so I wouldn't be surprised if it was the latter.
--A
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:33 am
by balon!
It sounds interesting, but I'm hazy on the details. Can someone dumb this down for me?
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:51 am
by Avatar
Uh, the Pope is reviving a Latin Mass that (incidentally) includes a prayer that Jews will convert to Christianity. Jewish groups are insulted.
--A
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:53 am
by balon!
Ahhh...
Well I'd be insulted too. He thinks this is going to increase numbers in the West?
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:29 am
by Damelon
He is being responsive, in a way. Set aside the issue of the prayer for conversion. All they have to do is omit a line on Good Friday. There are older catholics who fell away from the church when they ended the latin mass. He's reaching out to them.
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:53 am
by Avatar
As long as he removes that line, I agree with you. Nothing wrong with a latin mass at all. Can be very dignified etc. Hell, bet most respondents wouldn't recognise the lines anyway.
*shrug* Doesn't bother me for obvious reasons, any more than a prayer to convert atheists would.
--A
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:58 am
by Damelon
Avatar wrote:
*shrug* Doesn't bother me for obvious reasons, any more than a prayer to convert atheists would.
--A
You'd feel those vibes wafting at you? "Avatar, join the mother church! Come on over!"
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:20 pm
by Avatar
Nope, sorry. Nuthin'.
--A
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:22 pm
by Cail
The Latin Mass is beautiful, and I'll definitely be attending some.
Jerusalem Posthe text is based on the Tridentine Mass promulgated by the Council of Trent in the 16th century. Originally this mass contained a Good Friday prayer for the conversion of "the perfidious Jews."
But in the 1960s, after his historic meeting with the historian and Holocaust survivor Jules Isaac, Pope John XXIII ordered this terminology removed, and the version that will be used dates back to 1962, when this phrase had already been eliminated.
While the Tridentine Mass contained a Good Friday prayer asking that God "lift the veil covering the hearts of Jews so that they may recognize Jesus Christ our Lord," the 1965 version states: "Let us pray for the Jews, that the face of the Lord our God may shine on them so that they too recognize the redeemer of all, Jesus Christ, our Lord."
The prayer continues: "Listen to your church so that those who were once your chosen people may reach the fulfillment of redemption."
Contemporary Good Friday prayers no longer ask for the conversion of Jews, and in contrast to the old version, the Jewish covenant with God is presented as eternally valid.
During Easter celebrations one can hear these words in the modern version: "Lord our God, who chose the Jews before all other men, to receive his word, help them to continue progressing in the love of your name and faithfulness to your covenant." The prayer continues with wishes that Jews may reach "the fulfillment of redemption."
Considering that the vast majority of the original Church was converted Jews, I fail to see a problem here.
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:27 pm
by Avatar
Hmmm, not much of an improvement really is it? I was on the verge of saying "there you go then" 'til I read the rest. Just cut the damn line completely.
How would the Christians feel if the Jews asked God to help them realise that Jesus wasn't the Moshiach?
--A
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:38 pm
by Cail
I look at it this way.
We believe that Christ is the Son of God, and we want everyone to be welcomed into the Kingdom. Since the Church was founded by Jews, I believe that it makes sense to pray for the continued conversion of our Jewish brethren.
Likewise, I think it's perfectly OK for the Jews to pray for Christians to come to their senses and accept the fact (to them) that Christ wasn't the Messiah.
As long as no one's getting killed over it, it's not a big deal.
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:44 pm
by Avatar
Holsety wrote:At the same time, I actually respect the right for religious people to feel like their way is THE way, and express that feeling, as long as they don't actually force people into joining.
Well, it's understandable at any rate. Like I said, doesn't bother me.
--A
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:25 pm
by emotional leper
WAIT WAIT WAIT
They're reviving the Latin Mass?
I'm going back to Church again!
Finally Darth Benedict and I have something we agree on!
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:07 pm
by SoulBiter
Thats not all he did in this..
He also reasserted the universal primacy of the Roman Catholic Church, approving a document released Tuesday that says Orthodox churches were defective and that other Christian denominations were not true churches and thus were merely ecclesial communities and therefore did not have the “means of salvation.”
So all you non-Catholics that thought you were saved (myself included)... the Pope just nixed the whole thing.
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:24 pm
by Cail
Good thing y'all don't answer to him....
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:46 pm
by Marv
I love the Pope, I love seeing him in his Pope-Mobile, his three feet of bullet proof plexi-glass. That's faith in action folks! You know he's got God on his side.
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:40 pm
by Lord Mhoram
I realize he is reaching out to the conservative base, but why? It seems utterly idiotic to me, when the conservatives are the exact ones he does not need to be reaching out to. They're the ones who are filling the pews already.
That being said, I have a huge problem with having to pray for the conversion of a people who have made a conscious decision to not be Christians.