Kevin's Watch

Plissken wrote:I'm all for speaking in an accurate manner, so I'll continue to refrain from using phrases like "Destroying the Planet." Just the same, I'd prefer that the planet go on being habitable for us.

As to it being habitable for us, I'm entirely ambivalant towards that possibility. I've read too much Dune to think we'll ever go extinct. Also, I think that it would be far too kind for nature to wipe us out instead of letting us as a species make the rest of the universe bend over.

On the debate about 'Global Warming,' or anything that involves 'Humans destroying the environment/themselves,' I tend to try to stick to the factual, technical aspects of the thing, and avoid the whole question of 'Would it be a good thing if we ceased to exist,' because, quite honestly, if I had a little red button next to me the would kill every human alive if I pushed it, I'd push it right now. I would have been constantly pushing it for about the last 6 months, ever since I mentally because what I consider an adult. Humanity, as a whole, does not deserve to survive. If we do not wipe ourselves out, that's fine. Existance isn't fair (in this case, to all other life). If we do wipe ourselves out, or are wiped out via natural causes, that's fair, too. To quote from "A Brief History of Nearly Everything" (or maybe it's a Short History), the three rules of life are "1) Life is. 2) Life doesn't want to be much. 3) From time to time, life goes extinct."

And from a purely natural selection-ist standpoint, if we do manage to kill ourselves off, then that's just what happens. We weren't fit. We die, and make way for something else that's fitter. Whether it's intelligent, or non-sentient, or mammal or reptile or whether Slime Molds come to dominate the earth, that's what is, and you can't argue with reality. Arguing that what is is not what it is is what constitutes insanity. (And if anyone can parse that last sentence and draw meaning from it, I'm not as drunk as I think I am.)

Do not Despair, EL. There is yet beauty in the World.

Plissken wrote:Do not Despair, EL. There is yet beauty in the World.

Sorry. I've already become a living embodiment of Despair and Despite. Lord Foul and I should get along famously.

Get over it. The whole angst-ridden, Humanity is a Waste thing may make some folks feel superior, but it's pretty much just a cop-out.

Plissken wrote:Get over it. The whole angst-ridden, Humanity is a Waste thing may make some folks feel superior, but it's pretty much just a cop-out.

Emotional Leper wrote:And from a purely natural selection-ist standpoint, if we do manage to kill ourselves off, then that's just what happens. We weren't fit. We die, and make way for something else that's fitter. Whether it's intelligent, or non-sentient, or mammal or reptile or whether Slime Molds come to dominate the earth, that's what is, and you can't argue with reality. Arguing that what is is not what it is is what constitutes insanity. (And if anyone can parse that last sentence and draw meaning from it, I'm not as drunk as I think I am.)

But who is to say that our replacements will be superior? I take a very cynical stance towards life - in that selfishness is inherent. So the next species to become intelligent tool users will no doubt follow the same path as we. Willing our destruction merely delays us finding the answer to our problems. It is no cure.

*cautiously takes his finger off the 'split' and 'move topic' buttons*

Loremaster wrote:

Emotional Leper wrote:And from a purely natural selection-ist standpoint, if we do manage to kill ourselves off, then that's just what happens. We weren't fit. We die, and make way for something else that's fitter. Whether it's intelligent, or non-sentient, or mammal or reptile or whether Slime Molds come to dominate the earth, that's what is, and you can't argue with reality. Arguing that what is is not what it is is what constitutes insanity. (And if anyone can parse that last sentence and draw meaning from it, I'm not as drunk as I think I am.)

But who is to say that our replacements will be superior? I take a very cynical stance towards life - in that selfishness is inherent. So the next species to become intelligent tool users will no doubt follow the same path as we. Willing our destruction merely delays us finding the answer to our problems. It is no cure.

From the standpoint of selection, it is fitter than us because it is alive and we aren't. Fitter and Superior are not the same thing. If I showed you a wolf that was twice the mass of its companions, healed remarkably faster, ran faster, was stronger, and required less food per kilo of mass per day to survive, would it be superior to its companions? Probably. But if it was sterile, is it fitter? Nope.

Cail wrote:

Plissken wrote:Get over it. The whole angst-ridden, Humanity is a Waste thing may make some folks feel superior, but it's pretty much just a cop-out.

I think I'm being misunderstood.

There are good persons. Individuals can be good and decent and intelligence. But there is no such thing as a good people. The more people involved in a group, the lower the intelligence of the group becomes, the less likely they are to get anything done that is not entirely self-serving to members of the group, and the less they treat outsiders to their group as human. It's a built-in human reaction. We are programmed to identify with a group. Whether it's our family, our gang, our tribe, our village, only people of our 'race,' our nation, or our planet. This is an ingrained human behaviour that some people are simply able to extend further up the ladder than most everybody else. Nationalism and Racism are the same thing, just to different points on the spectrum.

I am not an objective observer, though I do my damned to be one, and try to keep in mind when I'm not one, to try to let it colour my feelings about topics that need objective thought as little as possible. And I'm very sad to say that humanity is very lacking. We are unable to put aside petty difference and unite in our common good. We are unable to make sacrifices for the species's survival. And most of us are completely unable to be honest with ourselves without completely shattering our own minds. We hate and kill anything different from ourselves, and exist by the rule of the strongest. The entire history of humanity could be viewed in terms of population pressure and war, and you'd get alot, but not enough for an accurate picture. But enough.

Now, just because I consider humanity at large to be horrible, and I actually hate (dislike) people in general, does not mean that I do not have friends, am not a suprisingly kind and thoughtful person, nor that I am incapable of love and compassion. Individuals are often different from the aggregation of the species as a whole.

Nor do I automatically assume the worst of a person when I meet them. Everyone is considered decent and worthy of respect until they prove otherwise. At one point in time, I also considered everyone trustworthy until proven otherwise, but this approach is one I have had to stop. It leads to too much pain and stupidity.

I am not an objective observer, though I do my damned to be one, and try to keep in mind when I'm not one, to try to let it colour my feelings about topics that need objective thought as little as possible. And I'm very sad to say that humanity is very lacking.

In comparison to what?

Syl wrote:

I am not an objective observer, though I do my damned to be one, and try to keep in mind when I'm not one, to try to let it colour my feelings about topics that need objective thought as little as possible. And I'm very sad to say that humanity is very lacking.

In comparison to what?

God would be the objective observer. And in comparison to what we should be, but will never achieve. But constant failure is better than never trying. I live every day trying to achieve a perfect ideal of behaviour that I will never, ever suceed in reaching, simply because, being human, I am imperfect and subject to emotions and desires which will derail my attempts at perfection. However, though I know I must fail, I still attempt to be perfect, because the alternative to running on the treadmill is to have the thing slam you backwards into the spiked wall that is the path ever downwards to stagnation.

All that you see (and don't see ) around you is God's will, otherwise it wouldn't exist? Where does your authority to make distinctions about what is and isn't God's will come from?

In comparison to god or the human ideal, there is no option but failure, wouldn't you say? And some might say that if you're going to fail no matter what, you might as well enjoy the ride.

Since this current portion of the thread is bound for The Close anyway, I might as well quote this:

Richard Bach wrote:Once there lived a village of creatures along the bottom of a great crystal river.
The current of the river swept silently over them all – young and old, rich and poor, good and evil, the current going its own way, knowing only its own crystal self.
Each creature in its own manner clung tightly to the twigs and rocks of the river bottom, for clinging was their way of life, and resisting the current what each had learned from birth.
But one creature said at last, ‘I am tired of clinging. Though I cannot see it with my eyes, I trust that the current knows where it is going. I shall let go, and let it take me where it will clinging, I shall die of boredom.’
The other creatures laughed and said; ‘Fool! Let go, and that current you worship will throw you tumbled and smashed across the rocks, and you will die quicker than boredom!’
But the one headed them not, and taking a breath did let go, and at once was tumbled and smashed by the current across the rocks.
Yet in time, as the creature refused to cling again, the current lifted him free from the bottom, and he was bruised and hurt no more.

Emotional Leper wrote: if I had a little red button next to me the would kill every human alive if I pushed it, I'd push it right now. I would have been constantly pushing it for about the last 6 months, ever since I mentally because what I consider an adult. Humanity, as a whole, does not deserve to survive.

I'm pretty misanthropic sometimes, but I could never push a button that would destroy the species that produced Beethoven, Mozart, Yeats, Keats, Byron, Joyce, Picasso (and the list goes on and on and on): music, poetry, art, literature... No species which can create what we have created deserves to be extinguished.

Emotional Leper wrote: Arguing that what is is not what it is is what constitutes insanity.

Not necessarily insanity -- just delusion. And sometimes people don't bother to argue, per se. They just ignore "what is," and you can't blame them for that -- you can resent them, but you shouldn't. Just tolerate them and try to understand. If everyone always focused on all the bad things that happen in life, there would be no reason for living.

Emotional Leper wrote: There are good persons. Individuals can be good and decent and intelligence. But there is no such thing as a good people.

Then dislike/hate humanity as a whole -- assume that most people are sheep. Sometimes I am disgusted by the way "the masses" behave, but every now and then, humanity does something that makes me proud and makes me remember why I'm not ashamed to be part of the human race. Hurricane Katrina made me feel that way. True, people were looting stores and fighting, but you can never fully escape the ugliness of humankind. There's a lot of good in the world, too, though. One of my friends didn't get out of New Orleans in time; after the storm, he had no food, and the house he'd been staying in was flooded and had almost collapsed. Some people saw him walking around alone outside, and invited him back to their home (which had survived the storm fairly well). About 20 people ended up in that house, and no one knew anyone else -- but it didn't matter: they all had something in common. Two days later, my friend was sitting outside with some of these people, when a van full of people came by. They were stopping at every house they could reach, going in and looking for people, and asking whomever they found whether they needed a ride out of the city. My friend hitched a ride and made it to Baton Rouge, where his dad picked him up (thank god he called me and let me know he was safe, because two of my friends and I had already begun packing supplies, preparing to leave the next day in an attempt to find a way into the city so that we could locate him).

Emotional Leper wrote: I am not an objective observer, though I do my damned to be one, and try to keep in mind when I'm not one, to try to let it colour my feelings about topics that need objective thought as little as possible. And I'm very sad to say that humanity is very lacking.

Of course we are. In a sense, everything in life is "lacking." People have some nasty habits, and sometimes you have to dig around before you can find something "good." But it's there, and it's better to look for it than to ignore it and just take humanity at surface value. It's easier to hate life than to love it.

Emotional Leper wrote:But constant failure is better than never trying. I live every day trying to achieve a perfect ideal of behaviour that I will never, ever suceed in reaching, simply because, being human, I am imperfect and subject to emotions and desires which will derail my attempts at perfection. However, though I know I must fail, I still attempt to be perfect

To strive toward absolute perfection seems an admirable goal, but in truth, it is foolish. (No offense intended.) To strive for something unattainable is useless -- it's like flapping your arms as hard as you can, despite the fact that you know you'll never be able to fly -- you aren't going to get anywhere. All you'll do is exhaust yourself. The fact that you know you won't get anywhere doesn't make the attempt any nobler. Try to be a good person. Perfection is inhuman (although you might see that as a good thing). The weight of constant failure is heavy to bear -- don't place such harsh demands on yourself, or on anyone else. If you do, you'll live in perpetual disappointment.

*sigh* The problem with life is that there are millions of reasons to rejoice, but there are trillions upon trillions of reasons to despair. While it is unwise to ignore the bad things, it is likewise foolish to ignore the good. Just try to focus on what's good. There's probably more than you think. You remind me a bit of myself, about 5 years ago... Even if you can't forgive humanity its flaws and failures, you can applaud its virtues and triumphs (no matter how few). Okay... I'm starting to sound like a Hallmark card, so I think I'd better stop.

Richard Bach wrote: Yet in time, as the creature refused to cling again, the current lifted him free from the bottom, and he was bruised and hurt no more.

And then a birdlike creature swept down from above and ate him.

Emotional Leper wrote:if I had a little red button next to me the would kill every human alive if I pushed it, I'd push it right now. I would have been constantly pushing it for about the last 6 months, ever since I mentally because what I consider an adult.

Great posts folks. Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with striving for the unattainable. Striving is what life is for. There's no meaning other than what we decide to confer, so whether you attain your goal or not is pretty unimportant I think. *shrug*

Now me, I wouldn't wipe out everyone. 95% of the population of the world should do nicely though.

--A

Emotional Leper wrote: [There are good persons. Individuals can be good and decent and intelligence. But there is no such thing as a good people. The more people involved in a group, the lower the intelligence of the group becomes, the less likely they are to get anything done that is not entirely self-serving to members of the group, and the less they treat outsiders to their group as human. It's a built-in human reaction. We are programmed to identify with a group. Whether it's our family, our gang, our tribe, our village, only people of our 'race,' our nation, or our planet. This is an ingrained human behaviour that some people are simply able to extend further up the ladder than most everybody else. Nationalism and Racism are the same thing, just to different points on the spectrum.

I would think that although it appears easy to sparate everything into two separate groups, things are usually more complex than that.

Yes, we all feel the urge to join a group, but more often than not group dynamics are not dominated by one over-all urge. It is moved by dozens, hundreds, thousands of individual urges.

Now THIS is where the opinions start to come in. I am of a mind that although there is a lot of idiot in all of us, most people are just trying to what they see as good. And most of the time, their view of good and my view of good coincides fairly well.

It's the people who cannot stand the fact that "fairly well" is not "the same as."

But overall? I think most groups are just trying to play nice.

Emotional Leper wrote:From the standpoint of selection, it is fitter than us because it is alive and we aren't. Fitter and Superior are not the same thing. If I showed you a wolf that was twice the mass of its companions, healed remarkably faster, ran faster, was stronger, and required less food per kilo of mass per day to survive, would it be superior to its companions? Probably. But if it was sterile, is it fitter? Nope.

No offense, but how is that a reply to my point?

Loremaster wrote:

Emotional Leper wrote:From the standpoint of selection, it is fitter than us because it is alive and we aren't. Fitter and Superior are not the same thing. If I showed you a wolf that was twice the mass of its companions, healed remarkably faster, ran faster, was stronger, and required less food per kilo of mass per day to survive, would it be superior to its companions? Probably. But if it was sterile, is it fitter? Nope.

No offense, but how is that a reply to my point?

I have no idea any more. The Fatigue poisons are winning.