"You Are The White Gold"

[KaosArcana]

I wonder ... I remember what Mhoram told Covenant, but I also
remember Pitchwife's discussion with Linden Avery (howcome she's
called "Linden" throughout the series but Covenant is "Covenant to
everyone but Joan?), and I'm wondering if the white gold would work
differently for everyone else.

What I mean is, under Covenant's hand the wild magic is a powerful
uncontrollable force that Covenant can steer, but not really control. In
Linden's hands, it's a powerful tool for healing. In the two seconds that
Hile Troy has the ring, the wild magic seems to be more of a weapon
to me ... he seemed to be able to call upon it much more easily than
Covenant was.

What does everyone else think?

[Tohrm]

I think that it comes down to what each persons' individual 'id' is.
Hile Troy was a war type person. He had worked for years in a think tank developing strategies for war and how to use the weapons of war.
Linden on the other hand, was a healer. She was trained as a doctor, and was the only person to actually have a health sense in the land. She was uniquely able to create just what the land needed in the recreation of the staff of law.
TC on the other hand could direct the white gold, but only with some difficulty. The reason being that he was 'the unbeliever'. Even when he knew the land was real, he would not admit it to anybody. Not even to himself. I believe that he is so ingrained with his vse training, and all of the other strictures of being a leper that he totally believed himself to be powerless. His training basically emasculated him.

[Skyweir]

wow Tohrm has raised some very interesting and powerful points!!

this being one of the most powerful!

I believe that he is so ingrained with his vse training, and all of the other strictures of being a leper that he totally believed himself to be powerless. His training basically emasculated him

I agree entirely! .. his 'survival' training did emasculate him .. it is reminiscent of persons who are institutionalised .. they often develop some syndrome .. which I cant remember now .. but I am sure amy may know .. but its like they develop a 'sick' mindset. They see themselves less as persons with some affliction but as afflicted persons .. they develop a 'hospital mentality'. They do more than accept there lot .. they believe they are .. their lot! That their lot is the sum total of who they are!

I hope that makes sense .. I am not sure how to explain exactly my point

however! .. TC became impotent .. through the advance of his disease and he became lost in his impotence to a degree.

I think he is also correct about it depending on an individual's identity/persona ..

.. but one thing that has always bothered me .. is that TC had 'health sense' in the 1st chrons. but not in the 2nd. Which seems to be the reason LA was needed at all .. somehow in the midst of the sunbane and the diseased state of the Land .. TC was deprived of his 'health sense'.

and .. I do recall the white gold being analagous to a weapon even in TC's hands ..

[amanibhavam]

.. but one thing that has always bothered me .. is that TC had 'health sense' in the 1st chrons. but not in the 2nd. Which seems to be the reason LA was needed at all .. somehow in the midst of the sunbane and the diseased state of the Land .. TC was deprived of his 'health sense'.

that is an open question for me: exactly when and why did Covenant loose his health sense? Something tells me it happened somewhere in between the two chrons, but I cannot put my finger on the exact point

any ideas?

[danlo]

Bannor would say that it has something 2 do w/the fact that hurtloam--wasn't available in the 2nd Chrons...that seemed 2 go a long way in opening up TC's healthsense. Constant VSE practice reminds me of obsessive/compulsive behavior--is that, possibly what u r looking 4 Sky?

[Prince of Amber]

Don't know if I'm remembering this right but I don't think Hurtloam was available in The Power that Preserves either (something to do with the unatural Winter caused by Dead Elena with the Staff Of Law) hence TC didn't have his leprosy cured - I don't think he had his health sense either, so that means it was the Hurtloam which created his health sense in the first place (powerful stuff) Linden must have just had it Naturally.
As I think I have mentioned before its a questions which has always interested me, why couldn't the natives of the Land see Lord Foul as the bad guy - but I found the answer in a re-reading of TWGW, it was that his evil was so powerful and so pure that it went beyond the normal vision of the people of the Land (I'll look up the actual quote later if anyone is interested) anyway I digress - it seems that maybe Hurtloam didn't create as good a healthsense for the Natives?
What do you all think

[Bannor]

Yes, I still think it was hurtloam that opened up TC's health sense because he got the health sense right after hurtloam was applied to him in the first two books of the first chronicles. In the third book, there was no hurtloam, and he didn't get the health sense. That doesn't explain why Linden got the sense immediately, and that kinda confuses me. Was it because she was a doctor? I would really like some answers, too.

[danlo]

Being physically healthy in our world and the Land, as opposed 2 TC, and being "new" 2 the Land probably contributed 2 her healthsense and inherent medical empathy...

[amanibhavam]

no, it must be more than that... actually I think Linden's health sense was as inherent with her as it was with TC being the white gold... that's why the death of her father affected her so much... she took it all in herself, absorbed it, but then she had yet no means to spit it out and heal it

[danlo]

That her medical training--tempered by issues w/mom & dad magnified by the Land--but there wasn't much earthpower 2 go around was there? So I agree there must b a little more 2 it--Was it the infusion of the creator's bad breath during CPR?HAHAHA!

[Tohrm]

I don't think so. Maybe I'm way off base with this, but I believe that any healer that came to the land would have had the health sense. But I think that LA was chosen to come to the land because she was twisted from the get go. And that was what LF wanted. He felt that if she was twisted enough, it wouldn't take much more to twist her to do what he wanted. But the creator had warned her about that, and she had 'cleansed' herself so that she could make all of the right decisions when they were needed.

[berencamlost7]

Tohrm said - " But I think that LA was chosen to come to the land because she was twisted from the get go"

Isn't this the way Foul works usually. Everywhere you look there are characters who's "twisting" is a result of Foul, usually through Covenant. In the second chronicles Foul has two "Real World" people to work on/through, LA and TC.

[danlo]

"tempered by issues from her mom & dad" was a nice way of saying "twisted" but ur right Foul (or perhaps the creator, or both) tend 2 go after the twisted 1s.

[KaosArcana]

I personally feel that mentally healthy, well-adjusted people can't travel
to the Land. There's something about the place that calls to damaged
people ...

[caamora]

I think that LA got her health sense from the fact that she was not of the Land. The Sunbane had warped the Land so that it was unhealthy. The people of the Land didn't know the Land any other way. TC couldn't feel it because no hurtloam was available. But I agree with what was earlier stated - that LA must have had some sort of gift before she ever got to the Land.

Now, about TC. Maybe he didn't want to have power because that would make him responsible. One thing TC did not want was to be responsible for the people of the Land.

[Skyweir]

but I do recall that in the 2nd chrons TC regretted not having the health sense .. It was more noticeable to him .. he felt at some points in the narrative that it had been deprived him and given to LA .. there was almost a resentful tone to his regret .. as I can remember ..

And certainly the hurtloam kickstarted his health sense .. but was it soley responsible for TC having this extra sense?? I dont think so .. I think it enabled him to feel the health in the Land but I think there were other things too that contributed to his being able to feel .. he tells the Creator in TPTP

"All I did was see the difference between health and - disease."

I think he still had the health sense in TPTP's .. and if hurtloam wasnt available because of the unnatural winter .. then it wasnt soley responsible for him having health sense or not having it.

I think that maybe because TC was diseased .. and was placed in a healthy Land .. he could more clearly identify that health .. but when he returned the Land was also diseased .. and TC could no longer distinguish between health or lack of it. But I am not sure about these things .. I will take a look and get back on that with confirmation as to that view point.

[danlo]

Perhaps his steady diet of treasureberries and his initial visit 2 Andelian helped? on a side note the issue of his boots in LFB has always intrigued me--rubber boots wielder!!!ROTF!!!--no, kidding aside, it was weird how his boots from our world gave him away 2 Foul and hurt him...hmmm--better do some research 2...

[KaosArcana]

The boots didn't hurt him. They were alien to the Land, so Rockworm
was able to use them to keep track of Covenant and the company.

Remember, Covenant's boots and Linden's shoes were also protection
against the Sunbane.

[Tohrm]

That's right. And one of the first things that military intelligence (an oxymoron if I ever heard of one ) wants to learn about is the location and strength of your enemy. So LF was definitely interested in where TC and the white gold and LA were. Although I am not so certain that he was really interested in LA all that much in the end. He was just trying to twist her so that he could get the white gold. But TC handed it to LF, himself.
If anything, I believe that LA was not intended by LF to come across, but that the creator sort of 'snuck' her in through the portal. But LF being the opportunist that he is decided that he could probably use her to get what he wanted. So he planted the notion that she was wanted. That the summoning was to bring her over as well.
I don't know if LF 'knew' that TC would not have his health sense when he came over for the 2nd chrons. But this was an excellent way to rub TC's nose in his own impotence. Talk about psy ops! This was something worthy of Alexander the Great.

[danlo]

They hurt him like Hellfire!--but I was really talking about LFB not the 2nd Chrons--check pg.291 Blood-Bourne-LFB:he got off his horse and he was stung 2 his nerves--numerous times-the Lords even offered 2 have a litter built 4 him so he would stop getting ill and feverish! When I was talking about aliantha and Andelian--I was sorta trying 2 c if this reaction 2 the "evil patches in the earth"--and Foul (or Drool) tracking him added anything, or had any connection, 2 the developement of his healthsense in the 1st Chrons--like I said it was just a side note, and would b better dealt w/in another topic! (We had a discussion on the old threads called "Rubber Boots Wielder, it's VERY funny!!).