Kevin's Watch

Posted: **Sun Oct 07, 2007 3:40 am**

Don't get me wrong.

Mhoram was a very potent Lord and a great High Lord.

But it seems to me that a lot of people treat him as being infalliable,
and I just don't see it. Mhoram did some great things, but the long
term consequences of his actions ultimately brought a lot of misery
to the Land.

Let me make my case.

Mhoram was a seer and oarcle, but he did not forsee the consequences
of his own actions.

Mhoram overcame the block that had kept generations of New Lords from
using Kevin's Lore and foreswore it to preserve the Oath of Peace.

By Sunder's time, the Oath itself had been forgotten and untold
generations of the people of the Land had suffered at the hands of the
na-Mhoram.

How could he not realize that he was disarming the people of the Land?
He took their heritage away from them. Who was he to make that choice
for all the generations to come? Yes, he was High Lord ... but Kevin had
been High Lord too.

And still later, Mhoram's advice led Covenant to take the actions that led
to victory against Foul ... but could now result in the destruction of the
Land and the Earth itself.

(I don't think that being Dead makes you omniscient myself. Kevin came
to Linden and warned her of Covenant's plans. He knew no more in death
than he did in life.)

So if the Land is destroyed, do we blame Mhoram for the advice he gave Covenant?

Posted: **Sun Oct 07, 2007 5:29 am**

I think you just stacked up alot of extra work for SRD!

Posted: **Sun Oct 07, 2007 10:22 am**

Actually, Mhoram was a seer but not an oracle, so while he could at times glimpse the future, he could not predict the outcomes of the actions of the present on the future.

Posted: **Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:29 am**

I'm not getting into this with you again, KA!!!

Posted: **Sun Oct 07, 2007 3:51 pm**

Fist and Faith wrote:I'm not getting into this with you again, KA!!!

You know you wanna ...

Posted: **Sun Oct 07, 2007 6:42 pm**

What I always found great about Mhoram was that he was human, had many concerns that nearly broke him, and yet he never gave in to despite. All throughout the first chronicles, people were trying and failing and Mhoram was kinda the character I turned to for hope when I first read the chronicles. Sure, some of his choices allowed Foul to really screw up the Land, but that's common with the Chronicles. Everything anyone does, it seems that Foul is able to, and usually does, corrupt to serve his purposes.

Also, in defense of Mhoram, it was TC who gave him the idea to forsake Kevin's Lore and make their own....it's all his fault...come on...take the bait...

you know you want to...

Posted: **Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:45 am**

I thought Seer and Oracle were the same thing, but it was Prophet that normally was not combined. (at least in the Land.)

Posted: **Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:09 am**

SRD consistently made a distinction between seer and oracle, going all the way back to LFB. Berek Halfhand was both seer and oracle, but Kevin and Mhoram were only seers.

Posted: **Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:46 am**

I think IrrationalSanity had it Don - Berek was both seer and prophet. Mhoram (like Kevin) was a seer, or an oracle, or both. Take your pick, as the words seem to be pretty much interchangable. He is described by Quaan as seer and Oracle when Covenant and Foamfollower and pick up from the river on their way to Revelstone, and I'm sure there's a chapter called Seer and Oracle ) chapter ten of The Illearth War I think.

Posted: **Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:09 pm**

Mhoram even describes himself as seer and oracle in TPTP.. I was reading it this weekend and noticed that.

Posted: **Mon Oct 08, 2007 2:22 pm**

Kaos Arcanna wrote:Mhoram was a seer and oarcle, but he did not forsee the consequences of his own actions.

Well, it's not like turning on a faucet. I don't think Mhoram got to pick and choose what he knew of the future, and it was far from a perfect knowledge -- merely hints.

You can't really blame someone for not forseeing the entire future.

Kaos Arcanna wrote:How could he not realize that he was disarming the people of the Land?
He took their heritage away from them. Who was he to make that choice
for all the generations to come? Yes, he was High Lord ... but Kevin had
been High Lord too.

Who was he to choose? The High Lord.

Did he take away the heritage of the Land? I don't think so: he changed one small aspect. And he spent a lot of time building a new way to learn lore rather than just merely stripping away the old. The new Lords were more powerful than ever before the onset of the Sunbane.

It was the onset of the sunbane and the mendacity of Foul and his Ravers that did for the new Lords. It was not because they were weak or faulty.

Kaos Arcanna wrote:And still later, Mhoram's advice led Covenant to take the actions that led to victory against Foul ... but could now result in the destruction of the Land and the Earth itself. ... So if the Land is destroyed, do we blame Mhoram for the advice he gave Covenant?

Well, that depends on the manner in which it is destroyed. Do you really think that the end of the Final Chroncles will be failure?

And if Mhoram's advice prevented the destruction of the earth for 3500 more years, isn't that a net gain?

But the serious answer is: Covenant is responsible for what he chose to do in response to Mhoram's advice, not Mhoram.

Posted: **Mon Oct 08, 2007 2:24 pm**

I'm pretty sure in LFB, Mhoram's mother says something about Berek being both oracle and prophet while Mhoram was only an oracle due to some deficiency in his world-view (I can't remember exactly what she said he was lacking, but the quote came somewhere during the journey to Soaring Woodhelven). Being both had something to do with accepting the paradox between a oracle and prophet....Not near my books right now, but will have to check when I get home. (I'm thinking about buying a set that I can just keep at work for reference

)

Posted: **Mon Oct 08, 2007 2:25 pm**

Ur-Lord a-Jeroth wrote:I'm pretty sure in LFB, Mhoram's mother says something about Berek being both oracle and prophet while Mhoram was only an oracle due to some deficiency in his world-view (I can't remember exactly what she said he was lacking, but the quote came somewhere during the journey to Soaring Woodhelven). Being both had something to do with accepting the paradox between a oracle and prophet....Not near my books right now, but will have to check when I get home. (I'm thinking about buying a set that I can just keep at work for reference )

This is what I'm trying to recall (thanks!) My reading copy of LFB is loaned out to a co-worker. I'll check on this later.

Posted: **Mon Oct 08, 2007 3:18 pm**

The doom of any creation is upon the head of its creator. Our work is enough for us. We need not weary ourselves with the burden of gods.

~ Lord Mhoram

Posted: **Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:13 pm**

"Ah," Mhoram sighed, "we do not know that a Creator lives. Our only lore of such a being comes from the most shadowy reaches of our oldest legends. We know the Despiser. But the Creator we do not know."

Then Covenant was vaguely startled to hear Lord Tamarantha cut in. "Of course we know. Ah, the folly of the young. Mhoram my son, you are not yet a prophet. You must learn that kind of courage." Slowly, she pulled her ancient limbs together and got to her feet, leaning on her staff for support. Her thin white hair hung in wisps about her face as she moved into the circle around the fire, muttering frailly. "Oracles and prophecy are incompatible. According to Kevin's Lore, only Heartthew the Lord-Fatherer was both seer and prophet. Lesser souls lose the paradox. Why, I do not know. But when Kevin Landwaster decided in his heart to invoke the ritual of Desecration, he saved the Bloodguard and the Ranyhyn and the Giants because he was an oracle. And because he was no prophet he failed to see that Lord Foul would survive. A lesser man than Berek. Of course the Creator lives."

And, once again, the reason Mhoram is so freakin' awesome is things like letting Covenant go to save the little girl from the snake. You do not sacrifice little girls! Those who walk away from Omelas are cowards; little better than the vile, filthy creatures that don't walk away, but remain and live a happy life.

That's what's meant by this:

He was alone against them.

He retreated to the center of the hollow, hunted swiftly around the rim for some gap or weakness in the surrounding horde. He found none. And though he sent his perceptions ranging as far as he could through the air, he discovered no sign of the Warward; if the warriors were still alive, still fighting, they were blocked from his senses by the solid force of the trap.

As he grasped the utterness of his plight, he turned inward, retreated into himself as if he were fleeing. There he looked the end of all his hopes and all his Landservice in the face, and found that its scarred, terrible visage no longer appalled him. He was a fighter, a man born to fight for the Land. As long as something for which he could fight remained, he was impervious to terror. And something did remain; while he lived, at least one flame of love for the Land still burned. He could fight for that.

Whether he lived or died, whether the Land lived or died, he was not appalled, because he served well, and truly, and beautifully. He did not let a little girl die for his own well-being. He didn't debate it with others or within himself - he knew it was wrong, so he didn't do it. And that quality in him that would not sacrifice her is the same quality that let him look at the mind-numbingly overwhelming odds against him, at the death and destruction and horror all around him, and say, "Ritual of Desecration? Don't be silly."

Posted: **Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:19 pm**

Thanks, Fist.

Posted: **Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:59 pm**

Quaan: Do you yet trust the Unbeliever?

Mhoram: I trust that Despite is not the sum of life.

Posted: **Mon Oct 08, 2007 7:06 pm**

Wayfriend wrote:
Kaos Arcanna wrote:Mhoram was a seer and oarcle, but he did not forsee the consequences of his own actions.
Well, it's not like turning on a faucet. I don't think Mhoram got to pick and choose what he knew of the future, and it was far from a perfect knowledge -- merely hints.

You can't really blame someone for not forseeing the entire future.

Kaos Arcanna wrote:How could he not realize that he was disarming the people of the Land?
He took their heritage away from them. Who was he to make that choice
for all the generations to come? Yes, he was High Lord ... but Kevin had
been High Lord too.
Who was he to choose? The High Lord.

And Kevin was High Lord when he made the choice to utter the Ritual. Does that make him right to have done so?

Did he take away the heritage of the Land? I don't think so: he changed one small aspect. And he spent a lot of time building a new way to learn lore rather than just merely stripping away the old. The new Lords were more powerful than ever before the onset of the Sunbane.

It was the onset of the sunbane and the mendacity of Foul and his Ravers that did for the new Lords. It was not because they were weak or faulty.

During TPTP, Mhoram keeps hidden the secrets that he learned about Kevin's Lore and laments that he doesn't wish to do so because he feels that it robs his fellow Lords of their knowledge. And then after the war, he decides to do the same for the rest of the Land.

And though we don't know for sure whether or not Lords wise in Kevin's Lore could have figured out something was wrong or not, the fact is that knowledge was no longer around because of Mhoram's choice.

Kaos Arcanna wrote:And still later, Mhoram's advice led Covenant to take the actions that led to victory against Foul ... but could now result in the destruction of the Land and the Earth itself. ... So if the Land is destroyed, do we blame Mhoram for the advice he gave Covenant?

Well, that depends on the manner in which it is destroyed. Do you really think that the end of the Final Chroncles will be failure? [/quote]

Well, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that it's definitely possible. Look at Lena's family, at Covenant's. SRD is not above letting things go to wrack and ruin.

And if Mhoram's advice prevented the destruction of the earth for 3500 more years, isn't that a net gain?

But the serious answer is: Covenant is responsible for what he chose to do in response to Mhoram's advice, not Mhoram.

Well, the net gain depends on if you're someone from the time of the Sunbane or the present.

Seriously, I think it's somewhat ironic that Mhoram's actions probably led to at least as much misery as Kevin's.

[/i]

Posted: **Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:16 pm**

Although Mhoram chose to seek out new Lore which was compatible with the Oath, rather than slavishly follow Kevin's, the Lords cannot have totally turned their backs on Kevin's Lore. It was, after all the basis for the power they did already posess. In addition, they did find (at a minimum) the Third Ward. The wards were designed such that an understanding of the lore within one would lead or provide the key to finding the next. Who is to say that wards 4, 5, and 6 were "written", any more than Amok was?

Posted: **Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:24 pm**

Kaos Arcanna wrote:And Kevin was High Lord when he made the choice to utter the Ritual. Does that make him right to have done so?

... but that wasn't the question I was answering.

Kaos Arcanna wrote:During TPTP, Mhoram keeps hidden the secrets that he learned about Kevin's Lore and laments that he doesn't wish to do so because he feels that it robs his fellow Lords of their knowledge. And then after the war, he decides to do the same for the rest of the Land.

Are you suggestion that Mhoram kept the secrets of power he learned, and that he shared with the Lords, from the rest of the people of the Land?

I don't recall that he did so. I would say he didn't do anything like that.

Kaos Arcanna wrote:Seriously, I think it's somewhat ironic that Mhoram's actions probably led to at least as much misery as Kevin's.

Well, that's debatable. Everyone's actions led to ruin and misery. That's what they needed Covenant for in the first place. But I don't think that it led there because the did something wrong or made the wrong choices. Foul just found a way to capitolize on the way things worked out, it what he does the best, it's rather unavoidable even.

Kevin's Watch

Why is Mhoram considered so great?

Why is Mhoram considered so great?

Re: Why is Mhoram considered so great?

Re: Why is Mhoram considered so great?

Re: Why is Mhoram considered so great?