Kevin's Watch

While I certrainly enjoyed FR, and I agree 100% that SRD has his writing groove back, here's a rather major discrepancy about the past that really struck me:

In WGW ("Leper's Ground") TC asks Findail how Berek was able to get a limb off the One Tree without encountering the Worm of the World's End. Findail replies that in Berek's day there was no Guardian so the Worm was not alerted by combat, and that Berek himself set the Guardian (whom we have now met in FR). It's a fairly crucial point in fact, and TC is left wondering why Berek thought the Tree needed a Guardian or why another Staff would never be needed.

Now in FR we are told in Stave's tale of the Insequent that there in fact was a Guardian back then-- an Appointed Elohim, whom the Theomach defeated. And Infelice herself confirms this very near the end of the book.

So what's up here? Maybe this is deliberate, but why doesn't Linden recognize the discrepancy since she too heard Findail's explanation in WGW? Did SRD just goof with this, as he did in Runes with Hurtloam and the Ur-Viles on-going breeding? I'm planning to ask about this in the GI but I'm wondering if anyone else has any thoughts on it.

I think it was deliberate. I believe the explanation is that the Elohim were, indeed, shamed by the Theomach's victory - and thus Findail, in essense, lied to cover that shame. That's just a guess, though. All I *do* know for sure is that he was aware of the noted section in WGW.

2 minor points:

Page 508 - Coldspray refers to "Covenant Giantfriend" when actually she should have said "Covenant Earthfriend."

Page 536 - someone says that the gem of the krill have been afire since Covenant's ring came back into the Land. This is inconsistent with the manner in which the light of the krill went out when Sunder killed Caer-Caveral.

Wow. Thanks Aleksandr for pointing that out. I knew at the time that I read that passage in FR that something didn't seem right. Just couldn't put my finger on it. Now it makes sense.

Oh well. I just hope SRD can clear it up somehow. Or maybe your explanation is on the right track, Romeo.

Or... SRD might have to admit he made a mistake.

Another very minor goof I caught: very near the end of the book (sorry I can't take the time to look it up right now) there's a passage about the Staff and it refers to "Caer Caveral's runes" but of course the runes are Caerroil Wildwood's. I assume this was a "slip of the word processor" due to the fact that Caer Caveral is also being mentioned here in connection with the krill, and presumably it will be fixed in later editions.

Romeo:
I hadn't considered that Findail might be outright lying. That doesn't sound like something the Elohim do; rather they just refuse to answer at all. And that does force us to reconsider just how it was Berek was able to get a limb of the tree. But I can see that being a point for the later books to discuss since the (current) Staff with its "lamentable" darkness (Caerroil Wldwood description), the Theomach, and the Worm of the World's End are likely to be dealt with in greater depth.

Aleksandr wrote:While I certrainly enjoyed FR, and I agree 100% that SRD has his writing groove back, here's a rather major discrepancy about the past that really struck me:

In WGW ("Leper's Ground") TC asks Findail how Berek was able to get a limb off the One Tree without encountering the Worm of the World's End. Findail replies that in Berek's day there was no Guardian so the Worm was not alerted by combat, and that Berek himself set the Guardian (whom we have now met in FR). It's a fairly crucial point in fact, and TC is left wondering why Berek thought the Tree needed a Guardian or why another Staff would never be needed.

Now in FR we are told in Stave's tale of the Insequent that there in fact was a Guardian back then-- an Appointed Elohim, whom the Theomach defeated. And Infelice herself confirms this very near the end of the book.

So what's up here? Maybe this is deliberate, but why doesn't Linden recognize the discrepancy since she too heard Findail's explanation in WGW? Did SRD just goof with this, as he did in Runes with Hurtloam and the Ur-Viles on-going breeding? I'm planning to ask about this in the GI but I'm wondering if anyone else has any thoughts on it.

Do the Elohim really ever *do* anything? I can't imagine one actually trying to fight the Theomach to protect the tree. (only render him catatonic or something) I imagine the Theomach was more inderect (something like one of Jeremiah's Portals). Also, Findail and the Elohim in general have a pretty funny relationship with the truth. For being "equal to all things" they are pretty flawed, petty and innefectual. (Love SRD's take on elves, I bet he plays a dwarf in D&D)

What I don't get is why Linden reacts like she's never seen Elena before. Didn't she bitch Elena out royally in Andelain in WGW? Well, dismissed her into the ether, anyway. Right? I can't find my tattered copy of WGW.

(I did love that Lawbreakers stuff, though. Sob. Two years and $27 bucks for a couple of paragraphs of payout, but I'm content. CC+HLE 4evah! )

I believe the existence of a previous guardian was a purposeful omission on the part of the Elohim. They can't be everything and still screw up, it's against their nature so they pretend their screwups don't exist to the best of their ability.

It's also possible that the Theomach defeated the Elohim guardian without ever actually letting Beren into the secret.
(A lot of things in this book are making my head hurt, actually. Need to re-read.)

Frankly, I don't like it. I don't see the necessity in having an Appointed guard the One Tree prior to Berek's arrival. SRD could have kept continuity by simply having Berek place the Theomach at the One Tree to act as its Guardian.

Cameraman Jenn wrote:I believe the existence of a previous guardian was a purposeful omission on the part of the Elohim. They can't be everything and still screw up, it's against their nature so they pretend their screwups don't exist to the best of their ability.

Didn't Esmer describe exactly this as the "shadow" on the hearts of the Elohim? They think that they are equal to all things, but this is false. I think there's a lot of undiscovered depth to that statement, but my flashlight doesn't shine down that far.

IMHO, I think the Elohim are a major problem. Their self denial about the truth of their existence is just as bad as Foul's evil. I literally cringe whenever they show up and I most assuredly want to bitch slap Infelice every time she speaks. At this point in the series I despise the Elohim and think of them as evil and I love the urviles and want to woogie them and snuggy them every time they show up. Go Figure!

Still reading but:

When Linden first went to talk(meeting) to TC and Jeremiah. They both seems condesending and TC blamed Linden for alot of stuff that TC himself was trying to accomplish.

He breates Linden for making the staff of law. He said it wasn't needed.
Then he saids that since the Banefire was put out that the Sunbane would have faded away. (Now wait one cotton pickin minute here)
In the second chronicles the people(I believe Sunder did) told TC that the Clave made the Banefire to stablize the Sunbane so it wouln't run amok. TC finds out that the Banefire was accelerating the Sunbane. That means that the Sunbane was around before the Banefire and would have grown over time to take over everyything. Without the helpf of the Banefire.
So how can TC tell Linden that the Sunbane would have faded?

Something is a FOUL with the way TC and Jeremiah are acting. TC is drinking too much and Jeremiah is acting very snobbish.

Maybe I need to read more, but this chapter has really provided some backtracking to the last chronicles. And I feel some red lights flashing.

Plus both TC and Esmer do not want Linden to go to Andelain? A convient little lie?

You're not ready for this thread yet, Ur Dead.

Keep reading.

yeah, what he said.

Romeo wrote:I think it was deliberate. I believe the explanation is that the Elohim were, indeed, shamed by the Theomach's victory - and thus Findail, in essense, lied to cover that shame. That's just a guess, though. All I *do* know for sure is that he was aware of the noted section in WGW.

And lets consider that the haruchai are no less truthful, because they were beaten and shamed and humbled by The Vizard Long before they Met Kevin, in fact this defeat was eventually what led them out of the Westron Mountains, to find someone to redefine their honor and prowess. Yet nothing was ever said about it, and Stave didnt mention it out of respect for the humbled on several occaisions.

dlbpharmd wrote:Frankly, I don't like it. I don't see the necessity in having an Appointed guard the One Tree prior to Berek's arrival. SRD could have kept continuity by simply having Berek place the Theomach at the One Tree to act as its Guardian.

I agree.

At the very least, SRD should tell us why there was an Appointed to guard the One Tree. We know that Findail, Kas, and the unknown female Elohim were Appointed because of extreme situations. Are we to believe one was Appointed - something they definitely do NOT like doing - just in case somebody might ever come along and mess with the Tree? If the Elohim knew about some specific, recurring, extreme threats, something that warranted an eternal, unbeatable (or so they thought) Guardian, I'd like to know about it.

Cameraman Jenn wrote:I believe the existence of a previous guardian was a purposeful omission on the part of the Elohim. They can't be everything and still screw up, it's against their nature so they pretend their screwups don't exist to the best of their ability.

Agreed. As soon as this point was brought up in the book...I said "That lying sonofabitch, FINDAIL!" And shook my fist!

I thought it was best explained by Infelice when she spoke about the Despiser winning the previous confrontation with TC and Linden - the Land would have suffered greatly, but the Earth would survive.

The Elohim care about the Earth's survival (and with it, their own) to the exclusion of all else. They only interfered with TC/Linden because of the chance of TC using the ring to rend the Arch of Time.

Earth could be destroyed (rousing of the Worm): send an Appointed to guard it.

Earth will be destroyed by Skurj: send an Appointed (Kastenessen) to deal with it.

Earth could be destroyed by TC and his ring: Send an Appointed (Findail) to prevent it.

Earth could be destroyed by Linden w/Krill and Staff/Ring: Infelice herself comes to the Land.

What I can't figure out is why they sent the Appointed to be the Colossus? Where was the chance of the destruction of the Earth?

Ideas?

Fist and Faith wrote:

dlbpharmd wrote:Frankly, I don't like it. I don't see the necessity in having an Appointed guard the One Tree prior to Berek's arrival. SRD could have kept continuity by simply having Berek place the Theomach at the One Tree to act as its Guardian.

I agree.

At the very least, SRD should tell us why there was an Appointed to guard the One Tree. We know that Findail, Kas, and the unknown female Elohim were Appointed because of extreme situations. Are we to believe one was Appointed - something they definitely do NOT like doing - just in case somebody might ever come along and mess with the Tree? If the Elohim knew about some specific, recurring, extreme threats, something that warranted an eternal, unbeatable (or so they thought) Guardian, I'd like to know about it.

Actually, SRD has told us why, through Infelice. I think. I'm sure that access to the One Tree allows for all sorts of impressive magics, but it can also do one thing which is possible in no other way: provide the foundation for a Staff of Law. That in itself would likely be annoying to beings who are in many ways the opposite of Law, but a Staff also enables the summoning of "beings from beyond Time." Beings who bear White Gold. Beings who can effortlessly trap the entire elohim race. If Infelice and the others foresaw the possibility of Covenant coming to the Land, not once, but repeatedly, that's exactly the sort of specific, recurring, and extreme threat to which they would respond.

What I don't understand is why the Worm wasn't made restive by the Theomach's (presumed) battle with the original Guardian of the Isle.

Cheers,

Dagonet