Kevin's Watch

on page 393 of FR when the Mahdoubt is talking to Linden about what her purpose was and Linden replies something about rescuing Jeremiah the Mahdoubt replies

Spoiler

"But do you grasp that your son has known the power of a-Jeroth? He that is imprisoned, a-Jeroth of the Seven Hells?"

Now I may be reading something in this passage that is not there, but I got thinking that perhaps Lord Foul is not who we think he is.

If we recall that originally Lord Foul was known as The Despiser.

Spoiler

Throughout FR we have a group of people known as the Insequent who all have similar type of title ie The Mahdoubt, The Theomach, The Vizard etc.

Now what if LF is an Insequent, who is working for the being known as a-Jeroth, who is actually what the Creator flung to Earth?

Interesing idea, but it doesn't fit in with the previous Chronicles conception of the Despiser, and anyway FR states that a-Jeroth was the name Foul used when he was on the Council. That being said I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out during the course of this series that a lot of what we think we know about Foul is wrong, particularly his very sketchy backstory. Donaldson has shown with FR that a lot of the legends the Lords told to Covenant in the first series weren't entirely accurate, and the creation story (and Foul's part in it) probably is no different, even more so in fact.

It is an interesting theory, but a retcon of that magnitude would piss off alot of people who love TCoTC, and I would be first and foremost among them.

I am going to go to the far reaches of the limb on this one, Donaldson has been making much of the polarized..the diametrically opposed,, the contradiction..the opposites in, FR. He forces the opposing, to interact and hence a 3rd reality is achieved.. a result of the conflicting forces is a newly realized reality....the Mahdoubts " deal" implies a Trust in this formula. One more element before I wrap it up......Linden,,,is the center of this Formula,,Linden,,a female character.

All the elements are there,,to suggest the Surreal Perpsective is being introduced or is at the foundation of the Last Chronicles..Now,, I mean " Surreal" as defined and put forth by its founders,, not as it is bandied about by any body else then or now. Andre Breton is the starting point.

But what I am getting at,, is that in the opposites,, say Black and White, their intermixing resulting into a 3rd reality,, say Gray,,is contingent upon the existance or acknowledgement of the Black and White,, therefore,, while not of personal Truth, the Black and The White do have Value. So,,yea,, Lord Foul,,may not see itself of that kind of value, but none the less..is of Value,, perhaps,, even a necessity.

The import of the lead character being a female,, is well,, what are the Big attributes assigned to the female?( no, not those two)..Intuition,,Love...Care Giving.....These attributes are very close to the Imagination,, where the original Surrealists said the answer to the essential question,, " Who Am I?" is found...." Do something they don't expect" a refrain repeated in Last Chrons,, suggests an exploration of the Imagination,,and Linden's Quest seems to me, is all about self discovery,, answering,, " Who Am I?"...

Okay, okay, okay,,I did alot of research on The Surreal when I left this board some years ago. I was on the verge of understanding it then, and a certain TV show caught my attention swerving me away from here but squarely into the surreal.. I just can't help in seeing Donaldson evolving a surreal analogy in the Last Chrons. It seems to me all the elements are there,, but in usual Donaldson style,, is ever so subtle and ,, well,, in no hurry,, to put them all together. There ia already a suggestion that Logic,, be subjugated,, and Intuition be Trusted above it. That is a cornerpost to the Surreal Perspective.

Interesting idea. I was thinking how odd it was that the Insequent called Foul a-Jeroth. The Clave, ignorant of the Land's history as we know it, called him that. How strange that the Insequent, who would have been aware of the Despiser far longer than the Clave even existed, would also call him that. Minor point though. All Insequent real names thus far have been italicized, and the "of the Seven Hells" part doesn't really fit in yet.

That said, I do think you're onto something about who and what the Despiser really is, and how that might not fit in with our preconceived notions of him.

Lord Foul is imprisoned - within the Arch of Time. And he's mighty pissed about it!

Lord Mhoram wrote:Interesting idea. I was thinking how odd it was that the Insequent called Foul a-Jeroth. The Clave, ignorant of the Land's history as we know it, called him that. How strange that the Insequent, who would have been aware of the Despiser far longer than the Clave even existed, would also call him that. Minor point though. All Insequent real names thus far have been italicized, and the "of the Seven Hells" part doesn't really fit in yet.

That said, I do think you're onto something about who and what the Despiser really is, and how that might not fit in with our preconceived notions of him.

The Clave used the name A-Jeroth because of Sheol, who knew which name Foul had used while on the Council of Lords. It was important to their purposes that the tranformation of the Lands history make use of genuine historical knowledge and lore. One does wonder though if A-Jeroth is Foul's actual name though.

Fist and Faith wrote:Lord Foul is imprisoned - within the Arch of Time. And he's mighty pissed about it!

Oh Goodness..In one of this season's episodes of the TV show I referenced,,was a cleverly hidden phrase.." Only Fools are enslaved by Time and Space.." Its become ,,almost,, my mantra at another board, ...Yes,,I am suggesting not only Lord Foul,, but all the characters of The Land, should be pissed about being imprisoned by the Arch of Time..after all,, what is the difference between the Masters Imposed black out of Lore Knowledge,, and Tom Keeping everyone and thing contained?...Do I see a Freedom that authors like to give their characters in their last book?..has the Mahdoubt already achieved it?

The difference is that all the inhabitants of the Land and its earth were created within the AoT. Time and Space are their nature. It is not the Despiser's. He was reduced. His nature is confined.

Fist and Faith wrote:The difference is that all the inhabitants of the Land and its earth were created within the AoT. Time and Space are their nature. It is not the Despiser's. He was reduced. His nature is confined.

okay,,yet,, any inhabitant of the Land born since the Masters Imposed Black Out of Lore knowledge,,,is completely unaware of its existence,,just as those created within the AoT are unaware of whats on the other side of the AoT..If the author gives awakening to Liand,,,how can he draw a boundry to it and not be a hypocrit?..I mean.. Freedom,, is FREEDOM..not just some or whats preconceived.,,Free ,,as in unencumbered..Authors like to give " freedom" to their characters in their Last installment and I can see a way Donaldson is going to do it.. which suggests a different perspective ,,on Lord Foul,, heck,,on everything...which seems to be what is going on in Runes and FR...imho.

May I suggest,,Esmer is also of the Land,,the son of Cail and the Dances of the sea,,yet he travels thru Time,, knows all sorts of theurgy and at his essence..always brings Conflict,, the diametrically opposed,, the Black and White,, in to Lindens situations...forcing her to a new Reality...Esmer is The Surreal,,imho,,and i await to see what his perpective is on ,, the AoT,,I think we're close to finding out.

On the subject of how the lords lore differs from the truth: We have at least 3 different versons of how the Earth was created. We know the Creator exisits and so does Lord Foul. But the Elohim make no mention of him and to them Lord Foul isn't very important. I think (if it is ever fully disclosed) that the truth about Foul and the Creator is going to be vastly different than any of us can guess.

lurch wrote:

Only Fools are enslaved by Time and Space. I am suggesting not only Lord Foul,, but all the characters of The Land, should be pissed about being imprisoned by the Arch of Time..

I can't help but say this. It's basically a given fact that the Earth and the Land serve as a prison within the Arch of Time, which represents the essence of limitation. That's why Foul is so pissed. He is supposedly a being of eternity, like the Creator, who is kept within a realm of finitude and limitation.

Now, can't the same be said of the Creator, that he too is imprisoned within a realm of finitude and limitation? If he created this universe, wouldn't it stand to reason that he imparted himself into his creation? If so, he would have to be limited and finite by definition because that's what his creation is, the form it takes. (I have more to say here, but am too hungover to walk through it right now. )

Insofar as other legends of the Land are coming into new light, I think this matter of the creation itself will be more fully explained as we move forward. How can it not? It's the crux of everything we're talking about.

And lurch, what tv show do you keep referencing without naming it? I'm too curious!

I think there is merit to this line of thinking. My recollection of the closing of the Arch of Time on Foul story is that he pursued/plagued some of the Creator's children and was trapped when it was sealed.

There seems to be familiarity between Foul and the Insequent.

It's possible that SRD is drawing on a similar background to Lucifer for Foul. That the Insequent as children are similar to angels or other divine beings of power. And that Foul (and the Creator) are more powerful versions of such beings. Thus they are potentially all related in a familial fashion?

hue of bone wrote:on page 393 of FR when the Mahdoubt is talking to Linden about what her purpose was and Linden replies something about rescuing Jeremiah the Mahdoubt replies

Spoiler

"But do you grasp that your son has known the power of a-Jeroth? He that is imprisoned, a-Jeroth of the Seven Hells?"

Now I may be reading something in this passage that is not there, but I got thinking that perhaps Lord Foul is not who we think he is.

If we recall that originally Lord Foul was known as The Despiser.

Spoiler

Throughout FR we have a group of people known as the Insequent who all have similar type of title ie The Mahdoubt, The Theomach, The Vizard etc.

Now what if LF is an Insequent, who is working for the being known as a-Jeroth, who is actually what the Creator flung to Earth?

Or what if, slightly more plausibly, The Despiser went among the Insequent and corrupted them before he turned his attention to other things?

Ummm, it occurs to me that this could be an explanation for why the Mahdoubt refers to Foul as A-Jeroth. Perhaps that is the name that he went by among the Insequent? We do know that the Insequent have peculiar characteristics attached to personal names....