Kevin's Watch

Posted: **Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:36 am**

I really have a difficult *ahem* time understanding what SRD has in mind for time travel, caesures, etc. Let me try to get these thoughts out with any coherence, and see if anyone can help me understand.

The Theomach went back in time and became ak-Haru Kenaustin Ardenol. So, it seems to me, the Law of Time was never all that solid anyway. Here's a guy who went when he wanted whenever he wanted. And I can't imagine he was not present twice in the same time - that time's Kenaustin Ardenol, and the one from the future who was now there too.

Or do I have it wrong? Was there a different origin of aHKA "before" Joan started making caesures? IOW, maybe the Theomach was not able to time travel "before" she made them, and, assuming there was an aHKA "then," in a non-caesure timeline, he would have been someone else?? But then Joan made caesures, and new timelines sprang up, and the Theomach rewrote the original aHKA.

And it gets worse!!! Did the Theomach of Stave's time go back, become aHKA, and contact the Vizard of Berek's time, saying, "Hey. It's me, but from the far future. I've come back to this time to help these Land folks learn about Earthpower, then become the Guardian of the One Tree by beating up this snotty Elohim who thought he was all that." Because the Vizard knew about it, and told the Haruchai, inspiring them to go to the Land.

Is this making sense??

Posted: **Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:52 am**

Has it been said somewhere that the Theomach was in Stave's time? I thought Stave was only relating the story of when the Haruchai met the Vizard in the time before they came to the Land, and what he told them then.

Posted: **Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:39 am**

I was under the impression that The Theomach was present in the past only and that The Mahdoubt was The Insequent who had the ability to move through time.

IIRC we get introduced to The Theomach when Roger tries to teleport to MS before Damelon wards it.

Posted: **Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:46 am**

Lorelei wrote:I was under the impression that The Theomach was present in the past only and that The Mahdoubt was The Insequent who had the ability to move through time.

This was my impression also. I don't think they can all time travel (the Harrow certainly can't, otherwise the Mahdoubt's threat to send him way back in time would have held no sway).

Posted: **Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:05 am**

That's true. But... OK... When Linden and Roger landed in Berek's time, Roger and the Theomach were speaking/arguing. They both knew everything about the other. Roger even knew who had messed with their travelling before the Theomach revealed himself. "This whole place stinks of you!" And the Theomach knew everything there was to know about everything from Berek's time to Stave's time. Since the Theomach (and the Mahdoubt) could travel through time, I was assuming that the one Roger was arguing with was from Stave's time, and he knew everything because it was all stuff he saw happen in the future. It was all history to him.

Do you think he was from Berek's, and knew everything that was going to happen because he was a seer and oracle?

Posted: **Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:20 pm**

You all seem to be forgetting that anything is possible in a dream.
The trick for SRD is to not get *too* crazy.

Posted: **Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:38 pm**

Fist and Faith wrote:Do you think he was from Berek's, and knew everything that was going to happen because he was a seer and oracle?

Yes.

Posted: **Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:53 pm**

I concur, the Theomach is a past-only guy, but knows the future.

Posted: **Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:52 pm**

I also had the impression that the Theomach knew the future in some sense, as opposed to being from the future. So that explains how he could know Roger. But then why does Roger know him? This would mean that Roger's trip with Jeremiah/croyel and Linden was not his first trip to the past.

Posted: **Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:06 pm**

I have a couple of thoughts on that: I think Foul is familiar with The Theomach not necessarily Roger/or SRD has got something up his sleeve that I couldn't speculate on.

Posted: **Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:54 pm**

Aside from the Theomach.. Here's a question.

How does Roger know so much about aspects of the Land and it's people.
Much more than Linden does and can weild such power proficently more than Linden and whom has just been translated to the Land?

Was he summoned to the Land before??

Maybe it will be explained later in the future books.

Posted: **Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:12 pm**

Don't forget that when the Theomach pisses Roger off, Roger sends him away a short distance and he has to walk back. If he had time power that probably wouldn't have happened.

Also, he's described as existing in multiple places at once, almost standing beside himself... so isn't it possible he's split himself and one part becomes aHKA and the other doesn't?

Posted: **Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:30 pm**

Ur Dead wrote:Aside from the Theomach.. Here's a question.

How does Roger know so much about aspects of the Land and it's people.

To me, Roger seems to be getting his knowledge of the Land from Jehannum. His version of the Lands history sounded like a Raver's eye view of it, and it was the Raver's idea to give Roger Kastennessen's hand.

Posted: **Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:20 am**

From page 315:

The Insequent regarded Linden with one eye and then the other. "Sadly," she said, "the Mahdoubt has no knowledge of this. It transcends her. In some measure, she has made of herself an adept of Time - as did the Theomach as well, assuredly, though in another form. But she beholds only the time in which she manifests herself, neither its past nor its future. Thus she is unable to witness her own future. Her present is here. Beyond this moment, she may estimate intentions and perils, but she cannot observe deeds and outcomes which lie ahead.

"The Theomach's powers were greater than the Mahdoubt's."

And 335 & 360, after the Mahdoubt defeats the Harrow:

"That is difficult knowledge," he remarked when he was able to speak evenly. "It emulates the Theomach's. Yet I am not displaced."

"My lady," he Mahdoubt sighed, "knowledge precludes knowledge. Our mortality cannot master one thing, and then another, and then yet another. The Harrow unmade the Demondim. The Mahdoubt could not have done so. But she has given centuries to the contemplation of Time. He has not. He passes from place to place as he wills - oh, assuredly - but he cannot journey among the years.

"The Mahdoubt gained his oath by revealing that her knowledge might displace him to another age of the Earth, a time in which the objects of his greed would not exist. There he would remain, abandoned, useless to himself, until his spirit was broken.

"For that reason, he acknowledged defeat."

The Mahdoubt can travel through time. She can also send others through time. And yet the Theomach's power is greater than hers, and her knowledge only emulates his. These things being the case, it doesn't seem logical that the Theomach can't travel through time, too.

Hellfire, what does "Insequent" mean anyway?? Argh!

Roger knowing him so well also gives me that impression. Or did Roger get to know the Theomach's "stink" so well because he has time-travelled so often? But yes, Damelon might be right about the knowledge coming from Jehannum. Or even from Kas, since Roger has his hand.

The Theomach's knowledge also gives me the impression that it is largely first-hand. I mean, he knows everything! In extreme detail. "Other puissant beings occupy this age of the Land. And the forces at your command are misplaced here. Any encounter threatens a disturbance of Time which I will be unable to contain." He knows it all, and can work anything into the knowledge of Berek's time. I suppose he could have cast a spell that gave him all knowledge of all time. But since I thought he was from the future, I figured he got his knowledge from millennia of living and studying all he could.

*shrug* I don't know...

Seppi2112 wrote:Also, he's described as existing in multiple places at once, almost standing beside himself... so isn't it possible he's split himself and one part becomes aHKA and the other doesn't?

Very interesting idea!

Posted: **Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:38 am**

Insequent what does it mean. Maybe SRD took a part of it from
insequent stream

(hydrology) A stream that has developed on the present surface, but not consequent upon it, and seemingly not controlled or adjusted by the rock structure and surface features.
So maybe,

The Insequent - A race that is:
Created during a time but not fully intregrated to it and is not controlled by it's surrounding??

Posted: **Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:42 am**

What I don't get is why no one is now able to compel the Theomach with his true name and the Vizard was not "undone" by betrayal through revealing it to the haruchai.

IIRC, the book tried to offer an explanation--something about him becoming the Guardian--but it didn't really explain anything.

Posted: **Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:31 am**

...the Theomach passed beyond self and craving to join the rare company of those who do not heed death. And therefore the Vizard did not scruple to reveal the Theomach's true name, for he could not longer be harmed by it."

Posted: **Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:56 am**

at the foundation of the inquiry is an assumption, realized or not,,that ,,perhaps needs a closer examination. F&F you bring up Laws that seem to be not so firm and maybe broken leading to your confusion. May I suggest, that Laws , went out the window in the hollow. Even the " Law" of the Sheriff and deputies went out the window. Literally and figuratively,,everything went kablooey. Everything that happened in the Hollow was beyond any Law of Mankind's making.

So,, I start from there. Everything Last Chron's is sans The Olde Laws,,which we are reminded of in the last chapter of FR,,when Linden is about to beckon Tom to her. The Law of the dead has already been broken once and therefore is weak,,she should be able to pull off getting Tom to her.
That which parameters Theomachs existence has yet to manifest itself in the story.For now, the suggestion is, that there may be no limitations to Theomachs abilities. He kind of represents the unlimited Imagination,,and the mystery of what hasn't been discovered in the exploration of the Imagination. I smell a meeting between Esmer and the Theomach..Perhaps both will benefit ..?

What I am saying is..yes the Laws seems to all be,,gone,,and perhaps Linden is to re-write them to her own definition...Let the Olde laws go cuz it appears that the author has. Its In the Unfettered Imagination..where the mystery awaits to be discovered for the answer to the question.".Who Am I?"....I agree with what you are observing,,I am not confused by it. I just accept it for what it is. Theomach remains mysterious,,mysterious as what has yet to be discovered in the Imagination...Gives a whole new dimension to the name TheoMach.

Posted: **Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:08 am**

Yes, I agree with what you're saying. I'm just saying that, if the Theomach went from Stave's time back to Berek's time to become the Guardian of the One Tree (then we saw him in Brinn's time); and the Mahdoubt could time-travel also - then time-travel was happening anyway, and the caesures were not necessary.

Well, at least not to make time-travel possible. But, so far, it seems that's the big threat of the Final Chrons; to set up a time paradox that will shatter the Arch.

Now, it's possible that the Theomach did not travel from Stave's time to Berek's. I'm the only one who seems to have gotten that impression. (Heck, I'm the only one who seems to have gotten the impression that he can time-travel at all.) But the Mahdoubt surely does it. So the possibility exists that others can - and the danger of paradoxes is there. All without the caesures.

Posted: **Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:48 am**

Here's my beef. Why would they be called "insequent" if only one of them had power over time? I rather believe their power exists in different flavors and different degrees. It certainly seems as if the Vizard can at least slow or stop time, and the Theomach's knowledge and presence seems to imply a great power also. I can't imagine him being unanimously considered the greatest of the Insequent without having a fair share of the Mahbdoubt's power. And I DEFINATELY don't think he's dead. I just read TOT again, and there are some interesting implications. Brinn says (after he has defeated the Guardian/Theomach) that he is now ak-Haru Kenaustin Ardenol. Well, he showed up in Andelain, so he can't still be Guardian of the One Tree (unless there isnt one anymore, considering it sank into the sea). How can that be the Theomach's true name and pass on to Brinn? And how could Brinn die with that name?

Answers are forthcoming I think. I am inclined to believe that the trick isn't having the knowledge or power to traval through time, the trick is doing it without damaging the AOT or bringing the Elohim in to mop up your mess. (It is stated that this is one of the Elohim's primary purposes). If the Theomach is able to shape the destiny of the world so powerfully, his power must be great indeed.

Kevin's Watch

The Theomach & time travel

The Theomach & time travel