Kevin's Watch

Check this out:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Forrestal

Worked for the military/government? Check.
Died after falling (or maybe jumping) out of a window? Check. There's even a picture of the building.
Dude's name was FORRESTAL? Check.
Real world death occured 28 years before the original publication of LFB? Check. That's, say, about 10000 years in the Land.

Whoa.

Arent you thinking of the forrestal Caer Caraval, who was prevoiously Hile Troy?

iQuestor wrote:Arent you thinking of the forrestal Caer Caraval, who was prevoiously Hile Troy?

No.

For one thing, Hile Troy's name was Hile Troy, not JF. For another, the timing is wrong. So these are clearly different people -- I'm just pointing out some intriguing parallels.

Ok, let me re-phrase it: the title of this thread is Real World Caeroil Wildwood .

But all your parellels point to Caer-Caraval, who has previoulsy been Hile Troy in the story. He was the one who worked in the government think tank, died hanging out of a window, and later became a forrestal.

Carroil Wildwood was a forrestal, but he was never mortal. He was the one who was summoned by Lord Mhoram as the bequest of Hile Troy, and then saved Hile's Army by allowing them to pass through the forest, and then hung SatansFist from the gibbet at Gallows Howe. He turned Hile Troy into his own apprentice, Caer Caraval, as the price paid for this service.

So my point was, shouldn't the title of this thread be Real World Caer-Caraval since your parellels point to Hile Troy -?

To me, a subject like that would imply that that James Forrestal is Hile Troy. But that's clearly false. They simply share some interesting properties. They're in some degrees alike.

Now, who else is like Hile Troy/Caer Caveral? Caerroil Wildwood. You state that Caerroil Wildwood was never mortal, but how do you really know that? Plausibly, JF could have been summoned to the Land and transformed, just as Hile Troy was And if that happened in 1949, it seems to fit the Land's timeline. Frankly, it makes a lot more sense for one of the original Forrestals to be named Forrestal, not some random guy who came along thousands of years later.

OK, but I still think you are confusing Carroil WIldwood with Caer Caraval.

To me, a subject like that would imply that that James Forrestal is Hile Troy. But that's clearly false. They simply share some interesting properties. They're in some degrees alike.

... And Real World Carroil Wildwood somehow doesn't imply that James Forrestal is Carroil Wildwood?? they dont share any interesting properties except James's last name coincides with the name of a race that Carroil Wildwood belongs to, which is coincidence. The parrellels between JF and CW stop there -- Carroil Wildwood didnt ever live in the real world of Thomas Covenant, never fell out of a building, and never translated to the Land, never was warmark, never was human. Hile Troy did all that, and later became the Forrestal Caer Caraval.

you are drawing parellels directly between James Forrestal and Hile Troy. That is very apparent. so I don't get why you would put that James Forrestal was a Real World Carroil Wildwood, when you are drawing parrellels in his life to Hile Troy's Life. That's why I say the title of this thread would more appropriately named Real World Caer Caraval (or Hile Troy) rather than the title you chose, which is Real World Carroil Wildwood. SO I assumed you may have the two Forrestals confused.

You state that Caerroil Wildwood was never mortal, but how do you really know that?

Yes I do know that. The text states plainly that the Forrestals were not previously mortal, but I wont post spoilers here. I can provide ample evidence by PM if you like.

Frankly, it makes a lot more sense for one of the original Forrestals to be named Forrestal, not some random guy who came along thousands of years later.

but you drew parrellels directly from James Forrestal to Hile Troy (Caer Caraval), so doesnt this invalidate your whole point? In what way does James Forrestal parrellel with Carroil Wildwood except for his last name? All other parrelells you bring up connect him directly with Hile Troy, and therefore Caer Caraval. That is all I am saying.

At any rate, I have trouble believing this is just an interesting coincidence.

That's a really cool find Chasmys

so doesnt this invalidate your whole point?

Quite possibly, except that I didn't really have a point, other than to point out an interesting real-world connection of some sort.

Admittedly, when I woke up this morning, I found that my mind is working differently than yesterday. I probably could have chosen a better title

Another interesting fact is that the site of JF's death was at a hospital, and SRD's father was a doctor. SRD would have been 2 years old in 1949, but do you suppose it's possible that he was exposed to this story later in his youth?

Chasmys wrote:so doesnt this invalidate your whole point?

Quite possibly, except that I didn't really have a point, other than to point out an interesting real-world connection of some sort.

Admittedly, when I woke up this morning, I found that my mind is working differently than yesterday. I probably could have chosen a better title

Another interesting fact is that the site of JF's death was at a hospital, and SRD's father was a doctor. SRD would have been 2 years old in 1949, but do you suppose it's possible that he was exposed to this story later in his youth?

Hard to say. SRD's father was also a missionary, and SRD grew up mostly in India, which is where TC's leprosy came from. WHo knows where the inspiration for Hile Troy came from? Possibly, Kent State -- SRD was there during the Kent State massacre in the 60's and suffered some violence. I think the period's mistrust of the government for korea and vietnam migh have guided his thinking, because Hile was a genius in the think tank but flawed in the execution of his plans, and may be symbolic of how SRD viewed the government at that time.

who knows. it sounds like it is plausible that Donaldson got his inspiration for the character Hile Troy from this James Forrestal guy since he was a military man. You never know. It is an interesting parallel.

after getting half way through the new Covenant book

Spoiler

I think it is fair to say that Carroil Wildwood was most likely never mortal.

<mods's note: carumba! spoilers are oozing o/o the woodwork!>

I posted a pic of the Forrestal building a few years ago. Damned if I can find it, though.

Syl wrote:I posted a pic of the Forrestal building a few years ago. Damned if I can find it, though.

I thought the Forrestal was an aircraft carrier?

Syl should tell you about the NAVY training film on the Forrestal-it's not nicknamed the "Forest-fire" for nothing...

A documentary on the fire of the Forrestal, an Aircraft carrier, was required viewing at Navy boot camp. An OBA Cannister dropped into an oil bucket caused it. It happened in 1967, here is a link:

www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/ships/carr ... -fire.html

This thread is very interesting to me.
Looking up some of the links about Forrestal, I don't think SRD was going for the aircraft carrier, but was going for the Secretary of Defense connection.
Two things popped out at me, one a very BIG stretch, one quite obvious to me.
The stretch? Forrestal was supposedly into Zionist conspiracies? Sounds like a bit of a Nazi to me. Nazis say "Heil Hitler."
BIG STRETCH, I admit.
But the one that I kind of like is the obvious one.
Hile's last name. Troy.
Forrestal's suicide note quoted lines from a poem about an ancient Greek hero, Ajax.
There were actually two fellas named Ajax, the Greater and the Lesser. Both fought in a certain 10 year war. Place called Troy.
The meaning of the connections is beyond me, but they are certainly there.