Kevin's Watch

OK, I've read the first Chronicles several times, but this is only my second time through the 2nd (I am, unbelievably, holding off on reading FR until my wife catches up, though).

Anyway, I was struck by two things:

First, I don't think Foul had any knowledge of Linden at all until she and TC showed up in Mithil Stonedown and confronted the Raver there (they didn't ever mention which raver it was, did they?). Although Gibbon tells her that she was "chosen for this desecration", to me it sounds more like he was bluffing his way through an unforeseen situation. After all, that's the kind of thing a Raver would say to intimidate anyone.

Second, of course, was the fact that NOONE believed TC would succeed against Lord Foul this time around. From the Creator to Foul, even to the dead in Andelain (Elena's assertion that Linden would be the one to heal the land), they all seem to agree that he WILL fail. It just struck me how demoralizing it is to not have anyone believe in you; in fact, it's rather the polar opposite of the first Chrons in that regard, where everyone believed in him even though he didn't believe in himself.

It was the same Raver that possessed Linden in Kiril Threndor, she then remembers all its past including the happenings in Mithil Stonedown.

Rigel wrote: Anyway, I was struck by two things:

First, I don't think Foul had any knowledge of Linden at all until she and TC showed up in Mithil Stonedown and confronted the Raver there (they didn't ever mention which raver it was, did they?).

No, Foul specifically said that he had nothing to say to Linden when he was ranting to TC during the "translation" to Kevin's Watch.
So he definitely knew she was there.

Rigel wrote: Second, of course, was the fact that NOONE believed TC would succeed against Lord Foul this time around. From the Creator to Foul, even to the dead in Andelain (Elena's assertion that Linden would be the one to heal the land), they all seem to agree that he WILL fail. It just struck me how demoralizing it is to not have anyone believe in you; in fact, it's rather the polar opposite of the first Chrons in that regard, where everyone believed in him even though he didn't believe in himself.

He did fail though.
He couldn't heal the Land.
Foul killed him twice!
TC did exactly what Foul said he would do.
Even TC said he was lucky Foul was so pissed off at him at the end.

Rigel wrote:First, I don't think Foul had any knowledge of Linden at all until she and TC showed up in Mithil Stonedown and confronted the Raver there (they didn't ever mention which raver it was, did they?). Although Gibbon tells her that she was "chosen for this desecration", to me it sounds more like he was bluffing his way through an unforeseen situation. After all, that's the kind of thing a Raver would say to intimidate anyone.

In the beginning of TWL, when Linden finds TC at the bonfire behind his house (where Joan is about to be sacrificed), Linden sees yellow eyes like fangs in the bonfire. After LA screams and tried to save TC, the eyes look right at her. I always thought these were LF's eyes. The text seems to imply that LF was surprised to see her there, but since the Creator sent Linden to save TC and the Land, then is it possible that LF knew about her, too?

Rigel wrote:Second, of course, was the fact that NOONE believed TC would succeed against Lord Foul this time around. From the Creator to Foul, even to the dead in Andelain (Elena's assertion that Linden would be the one to heal the land), they all seem to agree that he WILL fail. It just struck me how demoralizing it is to not have anyone believe in you; in fact, it's rather the polar opposite of the first Chrons in that regard, where everyone believed in him even though he didn't believe in himself.

The Creator obviously knew that TC could not heal the Land from the Sunbane, but certainly it was TC who personally defeated LF, again. I think TC's confidence came from the fact that 1) he was already in the "real world" and so had nothing to go back to and 2) since no one believed in him he was not afraid to fail. Which is why he didn't fail. He became part of the Arch of Time. Pretty damn cool!

High Lord Tolkien wrote:No, Foul specifically said that he had nothing to say to Linden when he was ranting to TC during the "translation" to Kevin's Watch. So he definitely knew she was there.

I beg to disagree. The raver said that to Linden in Revelstone. Foul didn't mention Linden at all while he was monologing in TWL. It'd be very easy to believe that later he fudged over not knowing she was coming.

High Lord Tolkien wrote: He did fail though.
He couldn't heal the Land.
Foul killed him twice!
TC did exactly what Foul said he would do.
Even TC said he was lucky Foul was so pissed off at him at the end.

Did he really fail, though? He quenched the Banefire, which Linden likely couldn't have done on her own, and that in turn enabled her to heal the Sunbane. He also defeated Foul, which was his ultimate goal all along. Yes, he died, but by the end he knew that that was the only way for him to truly succeed.

Lordsfire wrote:

High Lord Tolkien wrote: He did fail though.
He couldn't heal the Land.
Foul killed him twice!
TC did exactly what Foul said he would do.
Even TC said he was lucky Foul was so pissed off at him at the end.

Did he really fail, though? He quenched the Banefire, which Linden likely couldn't have done on her own, and that in turn enabled her to heal the Sunbane. He also defeated Foul, which was his ultimate goal all along. Yes, he died, but by the end he knew that that was the only way for him to truly succeed.

Linden and Nom put the Banefire out.

Wayfriend wrote:

High Lord Tolkien wrote:No, Foul specifically said that he had nothing to say to Linden when he was ranting to TC during the "translation" to Kevin's Watch. So he definitely knew she was there.

I beg to disagree. The raver said that to Linden in Revelstone. Foul didn't mention Linden at all while he was monologing in TWL. It'd be very easy to believe that later he fudged over not knowing she was coming.

Really!
I have to reread it.
I thought Foul mentioned Linden indirectly, not by name, but specifically saying that he had nothing to say to her. Like he was so completely sure of her doing everything he wanted that there was no point.
That she was no threat to his plans at all.
Which was true.

"To you I do not speak. I have not spoken to you. There was no need — is none. I speak to set the feet of my hearers upon the paths I design for them, but your path has been mine from the first. You have been well bred to serve me, and all your choices conduce to my ends. To attain that which I have desired from you has been a paltry exercise, scarce requiring effort."

That's from White Gold Weilder.

However, the question of whether or not Foul planned on Linden from the beginning, or whether he was surprised by her appearance and adapted his plan accordingly, is unresolved in my opinion.

Up until recently, I would have sworn that Linden was a surprise.

Then I read in the GI that SRD says Foul picked Covenant, not the Creator. That the Creator never picked anyone, in fact. So now I am confused.

High Lord Tolkien wrote: Linden and Nom put the Banefire out.

Touche...but I do still stand by the rest of my statement.

Wayfriend wrote:

"To you I do not speak. I have not spoken to you. There was no need — is none. I speak to set the feet of my hearers upon the paths I design for them, but your path has been mine from the first. You have been well bred to serve me, and all your choices conduce to my ends. To attain that which I have desired from you has been a paltry exercise, scarce requiring effort."

That's from White Gold Weilder.

Thanks! I could have sworn that was in WL.

Wayfriend wrote:Then I read in the GI that SRD says Foul picked Covenant, not the Creator. That the Creator never picked anyone, in fact. So now I am confused.

I am confused by that statement in general. The Power that Preserves at least doesn't give the impression that Foul was solely reponsible for the selection of Covenant, in fact the conversation at the end between Covenant and the Creator suggests just the opposite. And practically, it raises a lot of questions. If Foul was capable of selecting specific individuals from our world for his own purposes, why not choose someone with a white gold ring who would be a lot more likely to serve him? There would be a huge number of potential candidates with white gold after all.

Yes, I was quite blown away by that GI statement. (See the GI thread.) It contradicted everything I ever came to believe.

Wayfriend wrote:

"To you I do not speak. I have not spoken to you. There was no need — is none. I speak to set the feet of my hearers upon the paths I design for them, but your path has been mine from the first. You have been well bred to serve me, and all your choices conduce to my ends. To attain that which I have desired from you has been a paltry exercise, scarce requiring effort."

That's from White Gold Weilder.

However, the question of whether or not Foul planned on Linden from the beginning, or whether he was surprised by her appearance and adapted his plan accordingly, is unresolved in my opinion.

Up until recently, I would have sworn that Linden was a surprise.

Then I read in the GI that SRD says Foul picked Covenant, not the Creator. That the Creator never picked anyone, in fact. So now I am confused.

That doesn't sound like Foul - ignoring someone because he doesn't need to tell them anything. If anything, Foul would taunt her even more, just to make her feel even worse about herself.

At the very beginning of TWL, Linden finds a paper shoved under her door with a blood-painted triangle on it. Maybe the cult was going door-to-door like the Jehovah Witnesses, but my take on it was that they (and through them Foul) had targeted Linden from the start.


Also:

If Foul was capable of selecting specific individuals from our world for his own purposes, why not choose someone with a white gold ring who would be a lot more likely to serve him?

Initially at least I think Foul was blind in the real world. Only after the Staff of Law was destroyed and TC had been summoned several times to the Land, creating a sort of "worm hole" between worlds, only then was Foul able to start peeking into TC's own world and manipulating things and people there. That's my sense of it at least. As to why Foul didn't look for someone more to his liking then, well, maybe he was so PO'ed at Covenant that having revenge on him mattered most of all.

3rd Chronicles Spoiler:

Spoiler

Of course in the 3rd Chronicles Foul does import both the (mostly useless) Joan and the actively malevolent Roger for his team. And I wonder if TC himself didn't create a permanent door between worlds when he used wild magic to try to shove Linden back at the end of the TOT. Could explain how Jeremiah was able to enter the Land, and maybe Roger's close acquaintance with the Land too

As far as TC being unable to beat Foul in the 2nd Chrons, Foul learned what TC was made of the first time around, and he had all that time to warp the Land into something that would thwart all of TC's abilities, at least based on what Foul knew of him. TC gave his life away as soon as Joan came crawling to Haven Farm; he knew this time it would kill him in both worlds. He didn't have any defenses that Foul hadn't already planned for. TC knew it as soon as he saw Joan. Foul came after TC when Foul got all his plans and preparations in place. As far as Linden being chosen by Foul, who says it wasn't the Creator who shoved that paper under her door? If the Creator knew what TC knew, and you have to know that he did, he knew there would have to be another person involved. Foul had planned for any instance of TC's resistance, and laid all the groundwork to erase it. The venom rendered him useless for a great deal of the 2nd Chrons; all planned by Foul with relapses orchestrated at just the right times. I think the Creator chose Linden and Foul didn't have anything planned for it because he had no idea who she was or what she would or could do. He didn't plan for what he didn't know. He might have thought she got swept along accidentally in the summonsing. At the onset, she was insecure and lost and overwhelmed. Foul was able to get to her then, but later all that changed. This is why the Creator chose her; he knew her instincts would drive her to despise and fight against evil and corruption. This is all just speculation folks. That's why I love these books; you can look at things from all kinds of different angles and they all make sense.

Yet agian I hate to just jump in, but I side with Rocksister on this one. Foul had everything planned for TC, Linden was the wildcard.

I think I can see were SRD is coming from with this King Elessar 8.

In LFB when TC has received the piece of paper sent by the beggar, TC looks at the beggar and then at his sign. AS TC looks at sign he gets a feeling of fore-boding and sees two fang-like eyes gazing at him.

This is before the beggar has his talk with TC.

What is the GI?
At the end of PTPreserves, the creator definitely discusses choosing covenant.

The GI is the Gradual Interview on SRD's website.