Kevin's Watch

I know this has been addressed (at length, if I recall) in the other forums, but was anyone else just a little let down when they read that scene? I mean, the Theomach not only revealed the Words in their entirety, but he also (vaguely) explained their meanings. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Not a let down.. More like .. Finally..

If the Lord during the first chronicles knew all of the words, then they would have made a bigger impact.

in a way, i agree... this book did quite a bit to "explain" a lot of things and events that had been previously mythical or mysterious.

while i had great, "a-ha!" moments, i also can't help but feel a bit let down... oh, is that it?

to be fair, he has also given a lot of other mysteries to ponder. and certainly, not everything has been explained.

--
i'm glad to know the 7 words though and i plan to integrate them into my everyday speech... (in my head )

I'm clearly in the camp of those who are not much impressed with FR, or the Final Chrons in general. For me, after two books, it is not in the same league as the 1st or 2nd, both of which are incredible beyond description.

However, the scene where the Theomach tells Berek the Seven Words is AWESOME!!!!
-The fact that it came so far down the line, seven books after we were introduced to them, is great! A treasure I never had any thought of finding.
-We now know not only the 7th Word, but the correct pronunciation. samadhi told us that the Lords had it wrong, and looks like he was right!
-The depth of the Theomach's knowledge is... astounding! He knows the Seven Words?!? Back then, it's entirely possible that he and the Elohim were the only beings in the world that do. Berek knew them very briefly, and now does again.
-How the heck did he know Berek didn't remember the Words????? The Theomach's knowledge of all things seems as great as SRD's.

I'm with Fist on this, that scene is one of the most powerful scenes in FR.

My Thoughts are ,,the scene strikes me as the essence of the " reverie" spirit that is Theomach and the over all perspective so far of the Last Chronicles. There is a over all " looking Back" ,,a remembrance of things past,,and the 7 words seem to me as a remembrance of The Magic of Youth,,of an energized Will, that Youth has before the grind of Life takes advantage of its friable state.

There is Theomach's duplicity in knowing or creating a path for the Roger/TC and knowing a path of Linden's..In that is the realization or " looking back" and seeing,,that happened because this happened and this would not have happened if this other hadn't happened,,etc etc.: A realization that what may appeared to be bad news or good news at the moment it happened,,with the perspective of Time,,that maybe it really wasn't a Bad Thing or even a Good Thing.

Donaldson has already made reference to the ..dropping a pebble into a still pond. From the perspective of Time,, looking back,,one can see the overall chain reaction of ripple upon ripple upon ripple,,and come away with not so much good and bad of each ripple,,but the beauty of the over all event,,Compassion.

-We now know not only the 7th Word, but the correct pronunciation. samadhi told us that the Lords had it wrong, and looks like he was right!

Actually, it's the 6th that we now know (I think). On page 73 of my version of TPTP (ballantine books), in the chapter Siege, Mhoram says:

Melenkurion Abatha! Duroc Minas Mill Khabaal!

It's funny, too. What's the meaning of the one word that's missing, Harad?

As our good Insequent friend the Theomach explains to us,

The sixth, harad, may be understood as a stricture against selfishness, tyranny, malice, or other forms of despair. It binds the speaker to make no use of Earthpower which does not serve or preserve the munificence of creation.

Indeed, the protection against despair was the one thing Mhoram was lacking at that time: in a way, when he abandons Kevin's Lore in Lord Mhoram's Victory he actually masters the one piece of knowledge he had no knowledge of.

And I doubt harad applies to the seventh word, because

And last is khabaal, to which many meanings may be ascribed. In y our mouth, it is an affirmation or incarnation of your sworn oath to the land.

Thus when one gains the seventh ward (the earthblood) one can make use of the sovereignty of earthpower.

Finally, it seems that (as usual) the ability to fight back despair will be a key point for Linden's ability to find victory. After learning the words and wielding them in Melenkurion Skyweir, she returns to the land only to wield her staff destructively.

Personally, I'm well pleased with Fatal Revenant.

Did anyone else think it significant about the missing word, harad, meant:

(harad)...may be understood as a stricture against selfishness, tyranny, malice, or other forms of despair. It bnds the speaker to make no use of Earthpower which does not serve or preserve the munificience of creation.

Did the New Lords come up with the Oath of Peace before the Giants brought them the First Ward? If not, how could Kevin be such a dunce and not put harad in the First Ward? It looks to be pretty much the same thing.

Damelon wrote:Did anyone else think it significant about the missing word, harad, meant:

(harad)...may be understood as a stricture against selfishness, tyranny, malice, or other forms of despair. It bnds the speaker to make no use of Earthpower which does not serve or preserve the munificience of creation.

Did the New Lords come up with the Oath of Peace before the Giants brought them the First Ward? If not, how could Kevin be such a dunce and not put harad in the First Ward? It looks to be pretty much the same thing.

I don't really know anything about what the first ward entails; I figured that harad corresponded to the sixth ward, I really don't know.

[quote="Lordsfire"]I know this has been addressed (at length, if I recall) in the other forums, but was anyone else just a little let down when they read that scene? I mean, the Theomach not only revealed the Words in their entirety, but he also (vaguely) explained their meanings. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?[/quote]

This is a great example of why I'm down on the Final Chronicles. What's wrong with this scene:

- It destroys the mythology of the back story of the series, by exposing what happened directly and eliminating much of the cool stuff (such as the Earth speaking to Berek)

- It eliminates a bit of the mystery of the Seven Words. It is vitally important in good fantasy to include enough mystery and lack of closure to keep us arguing on these boards.

- It happens in a transparent lecture from a sort of deus ex machina character. Things should be discovered and flow naturally, possibly revealed bit by bit through cryptic pronouncements, not delivered in the style of a college lecture by a quasi-all knowing character.

I'd rather not know where the seventh word was than have heard this lecture, which is among the many we get in this series.

Re: - It destroys the mythology of the back story of the series, by exposing what happened directly and eliminating much of the cool stuff (such as the Earth speaking to Berek)

???
SRD's fans have been begging for years for a book set in the past, a "Silmarilion" type of book for the Land. Well, here's a few chapters of that book.

I guess I just don't understand the criticism. Far from "destroying" anything for me, the Berek chapters opened up a window on the the truth of that era and I loved it.
Look at it this way, probably 1000 years after TC defeated Lord Foul the first time (but before the Sunbane of course) the people of the Land embellished that story with all sorts of fanciful elements, and suppressed the ugly parts. But would you have been happy with that legend, or do you prefer the First Chronicles, even though TC was quite the jerk through most of them?

Re: - It eliminates a bit of the mystery of the Seven Words. It is vitally important in good fantasy to include enough mystery and lack of closure to keep us arguing on these boards.

I don't see that at all. We have a vague idea what the Words are all about. That's it. Less understanding in fact than Tolkien gave his readers of the Elbereth Gilthonial hymn in LOTR (he translated it quite explicitly and eventually provided the back story about who the hymn was about)

Re: - It happens in a transparent lecture from a sort of deus ex machina character. Things should be discovered and flow naturally, possibly revealed bit by bit through cryptic pronouncements, not delivered in the style of a college lecture by a quasi-all knowing character.

How is the Theomach a deus ex machina? He kept the truth from Linden and forced her to find it out and deal with it on her own. Roger is still at large, Jeremiah is still un-rescued. A deus ex machina* resolves all problems and ties up all dangling threads. The Theomach did not do anything remotely like that.

* The term comes from ancient theater plays when popular tastes turned against truly tragic endings. Writers would therefore progress the story into some dreadful, ghastly, bitter place then have one of the gods come swinging in over the stage, suspended by a machine, to put things right with a flick of their wrist. SRD has obviously done nothing of the sort here.

Looking at the arguments posted here (more specifically between arenn and Alexandr) I may only say this. To each his own, especially SRD.

Personally, I am satisfied with all of his books, because SRD wrote them and deemed them worthy enough to be published and showed to thousands of fans. I just keep telling myself, "it could be no other way. SRD would not have it any other way."

I just have one question:


Can you say these 7 words on television?

I sort of liked the big reveal for the Seven Words because it was an underhanded sneaky way for the Theomach to help Linden. For he was telling them to Linden as much as he was telling him to Berek.

Let Down? To not only get the missing word, but also their *meanings*!! I agree w/ Aleksandr about it. We've always wanted some of this backstory...

One of the things I find so powerful is that there's an implication that even though Kevin KNEW these words at a much more profound level than explained here, he still could not resist despair and the RoD.

** I don't think it's an accident that the missing word was the one that means "make no use of Earthpower which does not serve or preserve the munificence of creation." Kevin may have had to "forget" that word in order to be able to invoke the Ritual. I had chills when I read this part...

As to "things should be revealed bit by bit through cryptic pronouncements" I have to point out that almost every other sentence in these books is a cryptic pronouncement ... It's a major moment when someone actually says something directly. When else are Esmer, Mahdoubt, Harrow, Theomach, Roger (as TC), TC himself (in dreams), Anele, Findail, Infelice, the Dead, Caerroil Wildwood, or Foul clear about anything?

Cagliostro wrote:I just have one question:


Can you say these 7 words on television?

LOL! Good one Caglio!

I think that the Theomach is very akin to Donaldson injecting HIMSELF into the story, quite frankly.

I wasn't depressed at all. Rather, it was illustrating what REALLY happened back then - the whole thing about the earth speaking seemed ludicrous at the extreme anyway and this is more more "land-like".

Know that many creation myths and tales have things that
seem ludicrous but the actual happenings are different as
they can't really be discussed or interpreted.

Great. The addition of the insequent personally for me has
made the Land even more richer and mysteriously interesting.

Anyone care for a jaunt to the land of the Haruchai for a visit and then a journey past that to see what the Insequent are up to?

It gives you the idea that there could be MUCH MORE about that place we don't know or may never know.

I perfer to have some mystery in my fantasy, but too much or too little can be just as frustrating. This whole series, from the start and (hopefully) all the way to the end has been about the truth of the land. Anele says it himself: "These are the last days of the Land". It's time for some revelations about stuff that we only had the smallest idea of.

sherlock_525 wrote:I perfer to have some mystery in my fantasy, but too much or too little can be just as frustrating. This whole series, from the start and (hopefully) all the way to the end has been about the truth of the land. Anele says it himself: "These are the last days of the Land". It's time for some revelations about stuff that we only had the smallest idea of.

good one, sherlock. I agree. It's time to let go of the mystical, unknowing side of the land and focus on what really happened. The fate of the land is at stake, after all, maybe some of its true history can be utilized in trying to save it.

ad: "- It destroys the mythology of the back story of the series, by exposing what happened directly and eliminating much of the cool stuff (such as the Earth speaking to Berek)"

It doesn't, not in my book. It provides a wholly plausible story to see how those legends came into existence, that the Earth didn't actually speak to Berek just the poor blighter could not interpret it otherwise. We know now an answer to the perplexing question how the legend of the white gold came was born in the first place when white gold per se cannot be found in the Land except the two Covenant-rings: Berek saw/felt it on Linden's neck, did not understand a bit of it perhaps but it was enough to create a legend.
The Land/the story is full of magic anyway, begging us to suspend our disbelief at nearly every corner. It is _nice_ to know that some things have an everyday explanation after all. For me, anyway.