The Next Phase of Immigration Reform

[Cail]

The issue with any aid to Mexico is their unbelievably corrupt government. We've sent them hundreds of billions of dollars over the course of my lifetime to utterly no avail.

Creating a "Berlin Wall" or "Maginot Line" across our Southern border (which is 1969 miles long, not 3000) would be ridiculously expensive, but it would certainly slow down the tide.

But I'm not convinced that it's either illegal or immoral to shoot people sneaking across the border. The US has made it clear that our policy is not to allow illegal entry into the country, which makes illegals a de facto invasion force; especially since they have the blessing of the Mexican government.

[SoulBiter]

So what is left?

Offer the most useful illegal aliens a means of earning amnesty. Go after the most problematic illegal aliens (who are running drugs, etc.) And institute some kind of Marshall Plan for Mexico--carefully targetted loans to improve the economy and stability of our nearest neighbor (which is overwhelmingly in our best interests anyway).

Oh, and stop subsidizing our corn growers so Mexico can compete.

And don't pretend this will make the problem go away overnight. Nothing will.

The two things I agree with are stop subsidizing corn growers and the problem wont go away over night. Other than that.. I disagree with the rest.

We can proscecute those who willingly hire illegals without hurting the economy. We just dont. If they want immigrant workers they can request them. But instead they just hire the illegals.

As as been said often in this thread. Take away the incentive and they will, for the most part, go away on their own.

If you actually looked into the issue, you'd see that the proponents of the driver license thing are trying to make the roads safer. Because its actually a huge problem in road safety. Maybe they have a good assumption, maybe a stupid one. But here's the thing: no one's doing it to make life nice for illegals. They just don't believe that its worth going out of their way to make life hard for illegals at the expense of people dying.

I disagree. Its a rationalization. Those illegals that cant drive safely wont get licences anyway and will continue to drive without them and cause accidents. Giving those that can pass a drivers course will only make it harder for anyone to tell if they are here legally or not.

[iQuestor]

... Being allowed to drive a car is not a RIGHT. It is a privellage. So many people forget that these days. And it is a privellage wholely dependant upon obeying the laws of the land. One of the requirements to be a licensed driver is that you enter the country legally. You don't have to be a citizen -- but you do have to obey the rules of the land. If you're going to ignore our rules for immigration, then why should we believe you will obey any of the other ones?

actually, I thought this was an excellent post. EL! I couldnt agree more with your points here.

[sgt.null]

no amnesty. what would end up being more expensive? a wall or allowing the invading horde to continue. fine businesses, deport illegals.

[Cail]

If you actually looked into the issue, you'd see that the proponents of the driver license thing are trying to make the roads safer. Because its actually a huge problem in road safety. Maybe they have a good assumption, maybe a stupid one. But here's the thing: no one's doing it to make life nice for illegals. They just don't believe that its worth going out of their way to make life hard for illegals at the expense of people dying.

I disagree. Its a rationalization. Those illegals that cant drive safely wont get licences anyway and will continue to drive without them and cause accidents. Giving those that can pass a drivers course will only make it harder for anyone to tell if they are here legally or not.

Spot on. Allowing illegals to get licenses won't make a bit of difference on the roads.

[sgt.null]

and some states want to do away with id's at the voting booth. who would that benefit i wonder?

[wayfriend]

If you actually looked into the issue, you'd see that the proponents of the driver license thing are trying to make the roads safer. Because its actually a huge problem in road safety. Maybe they have a good assumption, maybe a stupid one. But here's the thing: no one's doing it to make life nice for illegals. They just don't believe that its worth going out of their way to make life hard for illegals at the expense of people dying.

I disagree. Its a rationalization. Those illegals that cant drive safely wont get licences anyway and will continue to drive without them and cause accidents. Giving those that can pass a drivers course will only make it harder for anyone to tell if they are here legally or not.

So what? You're taking the answer to one question and claiming its a bad answer to a different question. So... so what?

Whether the idea is a great one or a stupid one, whether it works or doesn't work, the claim that anyone is considering this for the sole purpose of granting priviges to illegal aliens is BUSTED.

[SoulBiter]

If you actually looked into the issue, you'd see that the proponents of the driver license thing are trying to make the roads safer. Because its actually a huge problem in road safety. Maybe they have a good assumption, maybe a stupid one. But here's the thing: no one's doing it to make life nice for illegals. They just don't believe that its worth going out of their way to make life hard for illegals at the expense of people dying.

I disagree. Its a rationalization. Those illegals that cant drive safely wont get licences anyway and will continue to drive without them and cause accidents. Giving those that can pass a drivers course will only make it harder for anyone to tell if they are here legally or not.

So what? You're taking the answer to one question and claiming its a bad answer to a different question. So... so what?

Whether the idea is a great one or a stupid one, whether it works or doesn't work, the claim that anyone is considering this for the sole purpose of granting priviges to illegal aliens is BUSTED.

The 'so what' part is that the idea wont have the effect of making roads any safer and regardless of whether the purpose is not to grant illegal aliens priviledges, it will make it harder for illegal immigration enforcement and as a by product it does help to grant priviledges to illegals.

I would also ask how you know that the reason they want this law to be passed that allows illegals to have licences is not a smoke and mirrors way to make them come to that state and work illegally? If the law wont have the effect desired then there has to be another reason. What would that be?

[Cail]

It's also a stepping stone to allowing them to vote.

[Zahir]

It's also a stepping stone to allowing them to vote.

Talk about a straw man. For the record, there have been amnesties before. Lots of times. Funny how you still have to be a citizen to vote.

We can proscecute those who willingly hire illegals without hurting the economy. We just dont.

I think you are seriously underestimating how much of a prop illegal aliens have become to parts of our economy--including several sectors of our agricultural infrastructure.

no amnesty. what would end up being more expensive? a wall or allowing the invading horde to continue. fine businesses, deport illegals.

That is the question, one you don't even bother to try to answer. Think about it--how much will it cost on average to deport an illegal alien? Now multiply that by even half of the illegals we're sure are out there (and include the cost of finding them). And remember that deporting in and of itself doesn't address the cause of the problem.

Now consider what it would cost to turn three thousand miles into an armed camp. Think about this. How many people does it take to man the width of North America? You have to pay them, supply them, house them and feed them as well as maintain a communications system along all three thousand miles. How much does this cost? Per year? For how many years? No airy answers of "Whatever it takes" or "It'll be worth it" but some hard numbers please.

The issue with any aid to Mexico is their unbelievably corrupt government. We've sent them hundreds of billions of dollars over the course of my lifetime to utterly no avail.

I do wish people would actually read my words rather than skim them, then toss platitudes as that were somehow an answer. Blanket shovelling of cash south of the border or to the Mexican government. It would require very carefully targetted loans--exactly the way we did after WWII (and in the process won the Cold War at the start, preventing WWIII in the process).

But I'm not convinced that it's either illegal or immoral to shoot people sneaking across the border.

I have zero doubts that it is both, if you're talking about creating a three-thousand mile wide kill zone where Hispanics are murdered on sight. I also am sure it wouldn't work. Very many people trying to smuggle themselves into the US die in the attempt--and they already know it. So fear of death is not that much of a deterrent.

Hell, I don't want to amnesty large groups of lawbreakers nor spend large chunks of money trying to make a notoriously unstable nation better. But these seem to be essential parts of a policy that will actually solve the problem. Solving the problem is the name of the game, not adhering to some kind of ideological purity.

[SoulBiter]

We can proscecute those who willingly hire illegals without hurting the economy. We just dont.

I think you are seriously underestimating how much of a prop illegal aliens have become to parts of our economy--including several sectors of our agricultural infrastructure.

Perhaps.. but I have also heard that 3 dollar a gallon gasoline would bankrupt the economy and yet here we are trudging along with gas being double what it was. I dont underestimate the prop. But if you want to come to this country to work then you should do so legally. Period. And if you dont, you shouldnt be rewarded with amnisty.

[sgt.null]

i dislike the argument that it costs too much to enforce the law. start charging companies that hire illegals the cost of deporting them.

[Avatar]

Good posts Zahir. I largely agree. Fighting the symptoms of something is cosmetic at best.

--A

[Prebe]

Should Americans pick crops? George says no.
Cause no one but a Mexican would stoop so low.
And after all, even in Egypt, the Pharaohs
Had to import—Hebrew braceros.

(Another George, another century, but the idea remains exactly the same)

[Cail]

It's also a stepping stone to allowing them to vote.

Talk about a straw man. For the record, there have been amnesties before. Lots of times. Funny how you still have to be a citizen to vote.

You might want to check your facts prior to making dogmatic statements such as this. Providing a government-issued ID legitimizes the presence of illegals in the country, and it is a stated goal of both advocacy groups and certain local governments. So, ummmmm......That would be like the opposite of a straw man.

[Zahir]

Excuse me, Cail, but changing the Constitution is anything but easy. It has been successfully accomplished only a few dozen times in over two centuries. Where praytell is the impedus to change the Constitution as to allow non-citizens the vote? I'm not talking about whether anyone thinks it is a good idea, or if some organization says that's the way things should be (there are Flat Earth Societies, for god's sake!) but anything like a mass movement? Can you even point to some members of Congress who have seriously advocated such a thing?

Sarge--I want solutions that work. Period. "It won't work" seems to me a perfectly legitimate criticism of a proposed policy. At least in the real world.

[Cail]

If you had read the link, you'd have seen that there are local governments already voting on this.

And who said anything about amending the Constitution?

[SoulBiter]

Or we could try something that we havent yet. Enforce our laws. Deny them jobs and opportunity. Put some teeth in the laws against hiring illegals. Take away the incentive and the problem will largely take care of itself.

[Zahir]

To vote in the United States you need to be a US citizen. That is the law, as stated in the US Constitution. To change that requires changing the Contitution. Pretty straightforward.

Soulbiter--please read my earlier posts. Keep in mind large numbers of illegal aliens die in the attempt to come here, and they know that. Fine and deportation aren't gonna scare'em away, when DEATH doesn't. The "incentive" is that life in the US is enormously better than life in Mexico. You need to address the problem, not the symptom. Besides, your post makes the absurd claim that INS isn't trying to deport illegal aliens right now. In fact, they are and actually are doing so every day. But there are at least eleven million illegals in this country and that number is growing. We need a multi-piered solution that will genuinely work in the situation that actually exists rather than what Adam Smith's theorie say should work.

[SoulBiter]

To vote in the United States you need to be a US citizen. That is the law, as stated in the US Constitution. To change that requires changing the Contitution. Pretty straightforward.

Soulbiter--please read my earlier posts. Keep in mind large numbers of illegal aliens die in the attempt to come here, and they know that. Fine and deportation aren't gonna scare'em away, when DEATH doesn't. The "incentive" is that life in the US is enormously better than life in Mexico. You need to address the problem, not the symptom. Besides, your post makes the absurd claim that INS isn't trying to deport illegal aliens right now. In fact, they are and actually are doing so every day. But there are at least eleven million illegals in this country and that number is growing. We need a multi-piered solution that will genuinely work in the situation that actually exists rather than what Adam Smith's theorie say should work.

I read your posts. It sounds like you have this idea that we have been enforcing laws against hiring illegals and that hasnt worked. Its not true. We havent been. Oh there has been a raid here and there. We have deported a few thousand. But there has been no concerted effort since the last amnisty to enforce our INS laws. Illegals have been able to easily get into this country and find work in the US. The money continues to flow from the US into Mexico. This gives incentive for more to come here. The incentive is so good that they will risk death to come here. The life here that is so good includes a place to live and a job. When they cant find a place to live and no work, then they will have no reason to come here anymore. Will it work right away? No. Basically we have to enforce our laws from now on. Any break in that gives rise to illegals coming here to take advantage of these things.

Giving amnesty to people here illegally is not the answer. That only encourages more to come here. Deporting them is not an answer (in terms of sheer dollars) as you have shown. However taking away the incentive. Thats the ticket.