Kevin's Watch

I know what Covenant meant when he told Linden to find him. And no, it had nothing to do with digging up his old bones.

Yep... it's The Me, one of the Insequent.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:I know what Covenant meant when he told Linden to find him. And no, it had nothing to do with digging up his old bones.

Do tell...what is your theory? I had assumed that TC wanted to be found so that he could communicate with Linden....but I believe that he is just as shocked that she has used so much power to RESTORE him.

"me" stands for Middle Earth.
TC was telling Linden that she needs to find the heroes of Tolkien's Middle Earth to aid her on a quest to toss the white gold ring into Mt Doom...err... I mean Mt Thunder.

High Lord Tolkien wrote:"me" stands for Middle Earth.
TC was telling Linden that she needs to find the heroes of Tolkien's Middle Earth to aid her on a quest to toss the white gold ring into Mt Doom...err... I mean Mt Thunder.

grrrr....

Middle Earth? I thought maybe it was the Windows Me disk Covenant lost...

WormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

I know what Covenant meant when he told Linden to find him. And no, it had nothing to do with digging up his old bones.

Alright, eye-rollin' guy ( ), what do ya really mean?

earthbrah wrote:WormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

I know what Covenant meant when he told Linden to find him. And no, it had nothing to do with digging up his old bones.

Alright, eye-rollin' guy ( ), what do ya really mean?

First, I would like to apologize for the Windows Me comment, because it was a bad joke. Covenant would surely use a Mac.

"Find me" translates to "find my true self, not this false Covenant that you idolize."

In this way, Covenant was obliquely advising Linden to drop the hero-worship and be faithful to herself and her own inner power instead.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

"Find me" translates to "find my true self, not this false Covenant that you idolize."

He also told her to "remember that I'm dead." Did he really want her to go seek for his remains? What could she have done with his bones, craft a sweet marrowmeld of his visage?

Or was it that she was meant to find the Covenant-in-Linden instead of thinking that she needed a physical or ephemeral Covenant external to her to guide her and tell her what to do?

"You're the only one who can do this." I somehow doubt that!

earthbrah wrote:TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

"Find me" translates to "find my true self, not this false Covenant that you idolize."

He also told her to "remember that I'm dead." Did he really want her to go seek for his remains? What could she have done with his bones, craft a sweet marrowmeld of his visage?

Or was it that she was meant to find the Covenant-in-Linden instead of thinking that she needed a physical or ephemeral Covenant external to her to guide her and tell her what to do?

"You're the only one who can do this." I somehow doubt that!

There's no literal meaning to "find me." The Dead often speak in cryptic terms. In another sense, beyond what I already stated, it means "find your own truth," as Covenant did. Linden continually seeks external sources of power, she needs to find inner truth instead. These external sources are mere tokens through which she expresses her need. "You are the white gold" refers to Linden also.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote

"You are the white gold" refers to Linden also.

Wow, a strong statement. Don't know if I agree with that one. Don't know if I even agree with the idea that Covenant's ring truly belongs to her. I will agree to the idea that she has some innate power, whether it stems from the white gold or not. Just like her son has some sort of innate power.

It'd be really cool if it turned out that the Staff isn't hers (it actually belongs to Anele and is somehow given back to him), and the ring isn't hers (it's actually Covenant's and is given back to him now that he's alive again). That neither of these tools are actual possessions of hers; that her true power has yet to be revealed and will come out in the next two books.

Highly unlikely, I know, but still cool to consider (for a moment )

Wow, a strong statement. Don't know if I agree with that one. Don't know if I even agree with the idea that Covenant's ring truly belongs to her.

I think the statement "You are the while gold" made by Mhoram to Covenant has been taken too literally over the years. IMHO Mhoram was simply telling Covenant that the ability to use wild magic had to come from within, as an expression of need and passion. However, I do believe that the ring is Linden's until she chooses to give it back. It belongs as much to her as it ever did to Covenant.

earthbrah wrote:TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote

"You are the white gold" refers to Linden also.

Wow, a strong statement. Don't know if I agree with that one. Don't know if I even agree with the idea that Covenant's ring truly belongs to her. I will agree to the idea that she has some innate power, whether it stems from the white gold or not. Just like her son has some sort of innate power.

It'd be really cool if it turned out that the Staff isn't hers (it actually belongs to Anele and is somehow given back to him), and the ring isn't hers (it's actually Covenant's and is given back to him now that he's alive again). That neither of these tools are actual possessions of hers; that her true power has yet to be revealed and will come out in the next two books.

Highly unlikely, I know, but still cool to consider (for a moment )

If "white gold" is symbolic of any inner power or strength, then it applies to Linden too, or anybody. Find your inner 'white gold'.

Where did you find out that Covenant's ring is given back to him? I recall speculating about that here a couple days ago, but that's all.

Anyway, even if you don't buy all my reasoning, I stand by the idea that "find me" is meant to be symbolic, not literal, and is based on Linden needing to eradicate her hero-worshiping ideal of Covenant and discover Covenant's true nature: he is no hero, and he is not the answer. Linden needs to 'be true.' Linden's true power comes from inside.

Worm, I'm not disagreeing with you. Your points are sound enough to not warrant any disagreements. I definitely see what you're saying about the white gold being a symbol of inner strength, insofar as Mhoram's refrain has any merit (and it definitely does!). I also see how the "find me" bit is symbolic of the same similar thing. Linded has been too focused on what's outside herself, for sure. She DOES need to "be true", to trust herself. As far as TC is no hero himself, then Linden finding the Covenant-in-Linden is the same thing as finding the white gold within her, as a symbol.

She alone is not the answer, just as TC alone was never the whole solution.

And I do not have any knowledge that you don't, at least not about the Chronicles. TC has not been given his ring back (yet). That part was pure speculation on my part, though the wording I used was clearly not clear.

Word

earthbrah wrote:Worm, I'm not disagreeing with you. Your points are sound enough to not warrant any disagreements. I definitely see what you're saying about the white gold being a symbol of inner strength, insofar as Mhoram's refrain has any merit (and it definitely does!). I also see how the "find me" bit is symbolic of the same similar thing. Linded has been too focused on what's outside herself, for sure. She DOES need to "be true", to trust herself. As far as TC is no hero himself, then Linden finding the Covenant-in-Linden is the same thing as finding the white gold within her, as a symbol.

She alone is not the answer, just as TC alone was never the whole solution.

And I do not have any knowledge that you don't, at least not about the Chronicles. TC has not been given his ring back (yet). That part was pure speculation on my part, though the wording I used was clearly not clear.

Word

I figured you were being an open-minded agnostic about my reasoning, and not negative. TCTC is one of these rare fantasy series that actually gives food for thought, so it's always good to keep an open mind. Of course we know from SRD's GI that it was always his plan to raise the bar in the fantasy genre, and in fact the first Chronicles were released as hardcover literary novels. (Lately he has raised the bar even higher by introducing a few cuss words, but still no f-bomb, right? Maybe he's reserving that word for the Creator Himself when He's cussing out Lord Foul at the end of the last novel.) [-edit- "Covenant" drops the f-bomb fairly often throughout FR.]

I'm working from the assumption that SRD is drawing more and more from the realm of the abstract with each new series. As he stated in one interview I read recently, LFB, and even as I recall the entire First Chronicles, boiled down to a mere physical confrontation. The Second Chronicles progressed beyond this level. And so on. "Find me," when uttered by one of the Dead, is to be considered highly abstract. It is cryptic because that's the way the Dead communicate with the living. And I'm assuming, from Covenant's words at the end of FR, that Linden screwed up big league. This ties in well with everybody's (including the Mahdoubt's) warnings to Linden not to go to Andelain, and adds to her increasing despair.

Every time Linden does something in FR it makes me want to hit myself on the forehead. First she failed to question the false puzzlement of the Demondim, even though she recognized it clearly. She failed to ask why the evil ur-viles are helping her at every desperate need. She failed to ask why Covenant/Roger was not affected by Berek's touch of Earthpower. And so on.

But still, I see hope in Linden's burgeoning sense of despair. I'm certain that, when she hits emotional rock-bottom, it will blast her out of the intellectual complacency and emotionalism which makes her nothing more than a tool and servant of Despite.[/code]

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:"Find me," when uttered by one of the Dead, is to be considered highly abstract.

I'm quite satisfied that it served as a mechanic to help drive the story forward (it gives Linden direction) and to cast suspicion on the riders approaching Revelstone. I'm not really convinced that there needs to be a more cosmic significance, when a more pragmatic significance is so readily available. You'd have to demonstrate how one would serve a purpose in the narrative.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:Every time Linden does something in FR it makes me want to hit myself on the forehead. First she failed to question the false puzzlement of the Demondim, even though she recognized it clearly. She failed to ask why the evil ur-viles are helping her at every desperate need. She failed to ask why Covenant/Roger was not affected by Berek's touch of Earthpower. And so on.

Who could Linden have asked to get an answer about the Demondim? She cannot communicate with the ur-viles. She did not ask about Berek's touch because by then she already suspected them and did not want to give away that she did. And so on.

Wayfriend wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:"Find me," when uttered by one of the Dead, is to be considered highly abstract.

I'm quite satisfied that it served as a mechanic to help drive the story forward (it gives Linden direction) and to cast suspicion on the riders approaching Revelstone. I'm not really convinced that there needs to be a more cosmic significance, when a more pragmatic significance is so readily available. You'd have to demonstrate how one would serve a purpose in the narrative.

Even better: research the GI, the answer is there.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:Every time Linden does something in FR it makes me want to hit myself on the forehead. First she failed to question the false puzzlement of the Demondim, even though she recognized it clearly. She failed to ask why the evil ur-viles are helping her at every desperate need. She failed to ask why Covenant/Roger was not affected by Berek's touch of Earthpower. And so on.

Wayfriend wrote:Who could Linden have asked to get an answer about the Demondim? She cannot communicate with the ur-viles. She did not ask about Berek's touch because by then she already suspected them and did not want to give away that she did. And so on.

Again, I ask WWCD? What would Covenant do? In the long run, his methods never failed him, even when he didn't know he was applying any method except Unbelief.

Unbelief is the key to unraveling Despite.

Even back in the First Chronicles, every positive thing Covenant tried to
do turned to dust. Examples: TC commanded a Ranyhyn to visit Lena
very spring, and what happened to Lena? TC gave Pietten a home with the Ramen, and what happened to Pietten? Even his inaction led to despair: leading High Lord Elena along so that TC wouldn't have to take responsibility for anything didn't work either. Nothing works except Unbelief. And Unbelief, in the context of all those questions I wanted Linden to ask, translates into skepticism.

So it's not so much a question of who Linden would ask about things. She asks plenty of questions as it is. But they are the wrong questions. Linden felt there was something wrong about "Covenant" from the very first (while the voice emanating from Anele felt like Covenant to her), but she never looked further for clues to explain this wrongness.

I think, as far as Linden being a doctor in the "real" world, the Land would be better off with the brilliant Dr. House as white gold wielder.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:Linden felt there was something wrong about "Covenant" from the very first (while the voice emanating from Anele felt like Covenant to her), but she never looked further for clues to explain this wrongness.

But she did. She even went as so far as to refuse him the ring when he first asked for it, in Revelstone, because something was not right.

At first she followed Covenant, but had reservations. As time went on, those reservations increased. Eventually, she realized that more and more of what he said was lies. In the end, she Commanded "Show me the truth" because she was sure she was being deceived.

And all along, she was watching for clues. She WAS looking. She noticed plenty amiss in the Southron wastes. She noticed more in Berek's camp. Even more when she was attacked by Viles. Even more when they entered Earthroot.

The things that she noticed weren't banging her on the head. She had her eyes open and she was watching for them.

The only thing she didn't do was question Covenant too closely. She didn't want to him to know she was looking. She strung Covenant along. Af first, as a matter of the benefit of the doubt. But later, to discover the heart of the deception. The longer Covenant didn't catch on that Linden didn't believe him, the greater the chance that he would reveal more.

It was an excellent plan!

Remember, she didn't have a clue that the deception was that it wasn't TC. There were so many other choices to choose from. That TC had changed after 3,500 years. That TC had changed because he was dead. That TC had changed because he was the Arch. That TC had changed because he had been battling Foul. That TC had changed because he had turned evil in some way. That TC had changed because he was coerced or duped into serving Foul. Etc. etc.

It's not realistic to think that "it's not Covenant" was the first thing that Linden should have thought of.

Wayfriend wrote:Remember, she didn't have a clue that the deception was that it wasn't TC. There were so many other choices to choose from. That TC had changed after 3,500 years. That TC had changed because he was dead. That TC had changed because he was the Arch. That TC had changed because he had been battling Foul. That TC had changed because he had turned evil in some way. That TC had changed because he was coerced or duped into serving Foul. Etc. etc.

It's not realistic to think that "it's not Covenant" was the first thing that Linden should have thought of.

Exactly, and she was also obsessed with (and distracted by) Jeremiah's presence, which made it more difficult for her to condemn Covenant openly -- she was afraid something would happen to her son.

Wayfriend wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:Linden felt there was something wrong about "Covenant" from the very first (while the voice emanating from Anele felt like Covenant to her), but she never looked further for clues to explain this wrongness.

But she did. She even went as so far as to refuse him the ring when he first asked for it, in Revelstone, because something was not right.

At first she followed Covenant, but had reservations. As time went on, those reservations increased. Eventually, she realized that more and more of what he said was lies. In the end, she Commanded "Show me the truth" because she was sure she was being deceived.

And all along, she was watching for clues. She WAS looking. She noticed plenty amiss in the Southron wastes. She noticed more in Berek's camp. Even more when she was attacked by Viles. Even more when they entered Earthroot.

The things that she noticed weren't banging her on the head. She had her eyes open and she was watching for them.

The only thing she didn't do was question Covenant too closely. She didn't want to him to know she was looking. She strung Covenant along. Af first, as a matter of the benefit of the doubt. But later, to discover the heart of the deception. The longer Covenant didn't catch on that Linden didn't believe him, the greater the chance that he would reveal more.

It was an excellent plan!

Remember, she didn't have a clue that the deception was that it wasn't TC. There were so many other choices to choose from. That TC had changed after 3,500 years. That TC had changed because he was dead. That TC had changed because he was the Arch. That TC had changed because he had been battling Foul. That TC had changed because he had turned evil in some way. That TC had changed because he was coerced or duped into serving Foul. Etc. etc.

It's not realistic to think that "it's not Covenant" was the first thing that Linden should have thought of.

I agree that her instincts told her something was wrong, but she never had a plan.