Kevin's Watch

Here's a topic I don't think I've seen on the board, and it's been driving me nuts.

On page 86, Linden's crew is describing an Anele incident where he appears to be channeling TC; who doles out messages to each of them.

I have to paraphrase as I don't have the text in front of me but, "I can only say this once. If I even start to say his name he'll stop me."


Who is "he?"

Lord Foul?
Kastenessen?
Anele?
The Creator?


stutt

::edit - end of work day stupidity - "Synchophants" and "Anel"
::re-edit. Changed wording and subject. Decided thread was getting ignored do to misleading verbage.
::re-re-edit. Found Anel in their again. DAMNIT!

Dude, what kind of work day did you have??? How can you give the page number for where this part of the text can be found, yet say that you don't have the text in front of you??? Me all confuse-ed.

But since I do have the text in front of me, and your page number to guide me, I'll chime in here and add some thoughts. (And kudos, Stutty, for bringing up something this important. It's been gnawing away at me too.)

The text isn't clear on whether or not this was actually TC coming through Anele. It states that (middle of pg. 85): Ringthane, it appeared to us that his voice resembled his fashion of speech when he accosted you in the Verge of Wandering, before fire and fury possessed him, and he was struck down for your preservation. And his words held such gentleness and sorrow that our hearts were wrung to hear him. Sounds like TC alright.

But what interests me is the advice he gives each of them.

About Linden he says (middle of pg. 86): She can do this. Tell her I said that. It's hard now. And it's going to get harder. She'll have to go places and do things that ought to be impossible. But I think she can do it. And there's no one else who can even make the attempt. Well, some of what he said here already took place in FR. Traveling back to Berek's time should have been impossible. Wielding white gold and Earthpower together should have been impossible. What else is Linden to make the attempt at doing???

To Liand he says this: I wish I could spare you. Hell, I wish any of us could spare you. But I can't see any way around it. What you need is in the Aumbrie. Stave will show you where that is, whether the Masters want him to or not. You'll know what you're looking for when you touch it. We know what he needed--the orcrest. But what burden would the speaker here like to spare Liand from? I think we've already seen a glimpse into that as well. He's taken on more responsibility for people in the Land, more responsibility with power. What will his fate require him to do that the speaker wants to spare him from?

Next, to Mahrtiir, is stated: You'll have to go a long way to find your heart's desire. Just be sure to come back. The Land needs you. What is meant by a long way? I thought SRD has said that no one will be traveling outside of the Land in these Last Chronicles. And Mahrtiir's heart's desire is something about beholding a great story, right? (Sounds like Foamfollower to me.) And he's been through a lot already, losing his eyes and vision. Damn, what a character!

Lastly, the voice addresses the Cords: In some ways, you two have the hardest job. You'll have to survive. And you'll have to make them listen to you. They won't hear her. She's already given them too many reasons to feel ashamed of themselves. Whoa, wait a minute. Survive? Make them listen to you? I'm assuming the "her" here is meant to be Linden. But who is the "they" that already feel ashamed of themselves? The voice can't be speaking of the Masters here, because he mentioned them explicitly when speaking to Liand. Who then? The Elohim? I'll bet these two non-power wielding mortal Cords of the Land will play a big role in AATE.

And then there's the whole part before the voice addressed all the individuals above. It says (all of these addresses are on pg. 86): I can only say all of this once. And I can't explain it. As soon as he notices what I'm doing, he'll stop me. If I even start to say his name, he'll stop me before I can finish. The whole thing here is: Who is the "he" that the voice is speaking of? I will venture to say that it isn't Anele. He doesn't seem to have any control over his being possessed. It could be Foul or Kastenessen since they both seem to have the power to possess Anele. But if the voice is intending one of these two, which one? Why?

There's a lot here; much good discussion can come from this material. Like most of the small details, this bit will likely prove to be significant as the saga progresses.

I think we need to let Roger be a possible choice.

He was posing as Covenant at the time. His position absolutely required that the real Covenant not show up.

It seems more than reasonable that Roger would have found a way to keep tabs on his Dad just to prevent this sort of problem.

Another possible choice is Voldemort ...

Oh, and who do we know is ashamed, and related to Ramen? The Ranyhyn, of course. If their participation goes awry again, as it seems to have, then they would be doubly ashamed.

Roger's method of keeping tabs on his dad may well be tied up in the fact that he now shares a piece of Kastenessen.

Hmmm......

Consider the Other Direction of defining He....The Creator...

I make the assumption that all previous characters will be dealt with in Last Chronicles..IMHO, The Creator has to be included..and who has absolute say over everything, including TC?...just a thought...Perhaps the line about if he even begins to say his name, he will stop me..is a joke of sorts.

While I don/t know the answer, I'm guessing it's the same person who prevents the ghosts from talking to Linden at the end of the book. Since we have the Harrow and Infelice there, the creator sure sounds like a possibility.

I'm almost positive that the "they" the cords have to reason with are the Elohim. Nobody else has been so sufficiently shamed by Linden - first not having the ring, then making the staff, then the earthblood and the resurrection... who else could it be?

Seppi2112 wrote:I'm almost positive that the "they" the cords have to reason with are the Elohim. Nobody else has been so sufficiently shamed by Linden - first not having the ring, then making the staff, then the earthblood and the resurrection... who else could it be?

But the Elohim would never listen to beings as "lowly" as the Ramen. I think WF is correct, TC is talking about the Ranyhyn. Who else has been referred to as feeling shame?

Are the Masters being totally discounted now? I don't think they should be excluded from the list either. To me, the 'they' is either the Masters or the Ranyhyn.

dw

DukkhaWaynhim wrote:Are the Masters being totally discounted now? I don't think they should be excluded from the list either. To me, the 'they' is either the Masters or the Ranyhyn.

dw

I think the shame part is a big clue - if the Masters were not shamed by Stave at the end of ROTE, why would they feel shame by any action of Linden's?

Short answer is that their Mastery was designed to prevent catastrophic events caused by the misuse of Lore(like the RoD or the Clave's actions). However by depriving the people of the land of Lore they are now open to other just as horrible events that the Masters are unable to stop (example the destruction of first woodhelvin).

The Master respect the Ramen and may listen to them as they would not Linden or a Stonedowner.

As for who prevented TC from saying more I'd say Foul, Kastersen, or one of the Insequent (perhaps the Harrow).

I think that the Masters are a candidate. But the Ramen would not be the best people to make shamed Haruchai listen, I don't suspect.

Why not? The Ramen have a strong sense of duty and long record of service just as the Harachi do.

In a way the Ramen have done better than the Harachi. The Ramen have stayed true to their service while the Bloodguard failed and the Masters have been unable to protect the Land.

I think its Foul who is preventing him. TC is at this time, part of the Arch, and is the flip side of Foul, so i'd imagine they are close together in some sense. I dont think even the Elohim or Insequent could prevent TC from doing anything because of this.

The masters are not shamed by Linden's behavior - not to mention that their moment of decision making has passed already without any word from the Cords.

The Ranyhyn could be it - the Cords would never choose to speak out against the Ranyhyn unless TC pushed them to do so - but I don't think Linden SHAMED the Ranyhyn as they have already chosen to go along with her no matter what she does.

No, the Elohim are the only _them_ I can think of that are both shamed by Linden and still in need of being convinced of anything by the end of FR.

Wasn't the "he" revealed to be the Harrow? Linden recognized his voice during their first encouner. Or am I thinking of a different "he?"

I agree that the speaker was TC. Romeo, I think there was another incident where the Harrow spoke through Anele, but Linden was there... he kept calling her "Lady."

I agree the "he" who would stop TC isn't Anele, but then I have no idea, except to assume it's one of the "bad guys." And it's not Infelice

earthbrah wrote:I thought SRD has said that no one will be traveling outside of the Land in these Last Chronicles. And Mahrtiir's heart's desire is something about beholding a great story, right?

It's closer to "doing something so grand that it becomes a great story." He isn't content to just be of "anonymous" service to the Ranyhyn.

SRD only said that no one would be returning to the "real world." I don't think he said anything either way about leaving the Land itself. "Just be sure to come back. The Land needs you" sure sounds like he's going on a voyage or something. But since Mahrtiir probably won't be a POV character, he might just go off on some errand that we only hear about.

I'm assuming the part about the Cords is referring to the Masters. The comment to Liand only mentioned that the Masters might try to stop him from going to the Aumbrie; but nothing about their fate/role/etc. Presumably the Cords will somehow be able to get the Masters to understand. I don't think it's the Ranyhyn; they are ashamed, but not because Linden "gave them" reasons to be. And I think they would listen to her. It could be the Elohim, but I agree they wouldn't listen to a couple of lowly Cords. Plus, as we've now learned, the Haruchai have a looooong history of shame.

Did the speaker ever say anything about Anele himself? I don't remember.

DukkaWaynhim wrote:

Are the Masters being totally discounted now? I don't think they should be excluded from the list either. To me, the 'they' is either the Masters or the Ranyhyn.

But how can it be the Masters? Sure, they've been shamed by Stave and what he represents: the ability to surpass their so called Mastery by succumbing to the Chosen and her will. But how could they stop Anele from being channeled by TC? I've never gotten the impression that their mental communication powers give them the ability to possess another, or stop another from being possessed.

It could definitly be the Ranyhyn, though. In fact, I like this idea. TC has a relationship with them that he made on the Plains of Ra in the First Chronicles. The fact that Joan was a horse breaker, and TC never liked horses--that the Ranyhyn bowed to Linden and reared to TC--will play a role yet with these beings. But are they shamed? Where is the evidence for it? They seem to disagree with Linden and her purpose, what she did in Andelain, but they didn't try to stop her like the Humbled did.

I agree that it's likely an enemy, Foul or Kastenessen or an Insequent, probably the Harrow.

But are they shamed? Where is the evidence for it?

They're ashamed because of their past failures with Elena, and are trying to rectify that now with Linden. See ROTE "Heedless in rain" for more on this (I'm pretty sure that's the right chapter.)

dlbpharmd wrote

See ROTE "Heedless in rain" for more on this

Chronicles re-reading is my kind of homework!