Kevin's Watch

Why did the Creator call Linden his daughter?

Interesting question. It could have some deeper meaning. Or, its just an "elderly" thing, someone older referring to someone younger as "daughter" or "son." The old beggar called TC "my son" in LFB.

I for one hope it has a deeper meaning for both of them.

Starkin wrote:Interesting question. It could have some deeper meaning. Or, its just an "elderly" thing, someone older referring to someone younger as "daughter" or "son." The old beggar called TC "my son" in LFB.

I for one hope it has a deeper meaning for both of them.

It's probably a reference to Christianity. I believe that one subtext of the Chronicles is Christian. At the very least we know that Covenant's first and last names can be directly related back to the Bible. Then there is Covenant's Jesus-like (Son of God) sacrifice in WGW. Weren't his arms splayed out in a cross-like configuration?

But I'm not saying that it's all Biblical.

And if there's a Son why not a Daughter?

I can't discuss this anymore here because of spoiler-based speculations.

One important note to address: When linden got her first detailed look at the Creator's face, she freaked out because of his striking similarity to her father. I am just recently re-listening to The Wounded Land, and this struck me as a good topic of discussion, and since it has already been delved into to some small degree i am adding my two cents.

possibilities of implications anyone?

Corwin wrote:One important note to address: When linden got her first detailed look at the Creator's face, she freaked out because of his striking similarity to her father. I am just recently re-listening to The Wounded Land, and this struck me as a good topic of discussion, and since it has already been delved into to some small degree i am adding my two cents.

possibilities of implications anyone?

Wasn't the blood-shedding ritual strikingly similar to the way Linden's father died? Was the Land slowly bleeding to death, in a sense?

definitely a personal connection thing... the Creator had a stake in the Land, and Linden was (about to become) someone who had a stake in the Land. Given what the Land is and that it is a thing that few ppl from the "real world" shared, that's a very personal connection.

Also, since he Chose her and knew what would happen to her, maybe he knew her personally, and had caring tenderness towards her? It seemed a very tender interaction to me! (too intimately fatherly-tender for Linden at the time, but...)

In a sense, the guy (insofar as he is Creator of the Land and sent her into it) is also sort of her spiritual father... in that he gave her a commission and was committed to her own personal spiritual growth. (by setting her up w/ a scenario that would uncover the places in her heart that she didn't want to face) There's something in The One Tree or WGW where Linden reflects on how she is sorta glad about the person she's become as a result of coming to the Land.

Feel free to cut this analysis to shreds... not very lucid.

In The Wounded Land, he does not call her "my daughter."
He says, Daughter.
It is, as discussed above, a way of an older man talking toa younger woman. Formal.
I don't think she said he looked like her father. I think she thought he was as desperate and frenetic looking AS her father.
If her father had lived to that age, he might have been that frenetic figure, I believe is the way the phrase is constructed. I do not, as some do, go to the books for the exact phrasing. Very hard to hold a paperback and transcribe.
And the only time the Creator appears to her is at the beginning of the Wounded Land.
Covenant appears to her at the end, calling her Beloved.
NOW, there were several references to the fact that Covenant, with a beard, looked like the figure Linden saw on the road. Perhaps phrased, i.e. parsed, the same way. But not all, i think.
What does THAT suggest?
Covenant and the Creator are one? It is an internal struggle, after all.

There's an idea that I think I'm borrowing from a friend of mine who deeply, personally understands the books. (far moreso than I do)

He has this idea that sometimes you come across a person, and there's a spiritual challenge as to "am I going to treat this person rightly, in spite of the things I don't like about him or her?"

And then maybe you come across "that same person" again. Except it's actually a different person, of course. Maybe you come across someone who has the same brokenness that you didn't handle gently. Maybe you come across a person who has the same personality trait that you weren't strong enough to stand up to. And so you have a second chance to deal rightly with this challenge.

Of course, my friend who has this theory never directly said that was from the books, but knowing him, I'm pretty sure it was.

SRD's writing has many, many, many different levels. I think there's no reason why most of the ideas mentioned on this thread are somehow playing in to what he was saying. The "snapshot" of the guy saying "my daughter" WAS clearly supposed to be very memorable and heavily meaningful.

SGuilfoyle1966 wrote:It is, as discussed above, a way of an older man talking to a younger woman.

I agree. But I also think it conveys the idea that Linden and the Creator have become tied by bonds of shared commitment. Similar to "brothers in arms". Linden has sided with the Creator, fought for him, in essence. They are kindred in spirit. "My daughter" is recognition of that kinship.

Normally, I'd say it's just the expected form of a god addressing a mortal. But since it's also the title of the chapter, I'd say it's that plus a hint at Linden's past.

Syl wrote:Normally, I'd say it's just the expected form of a god addressing a mortal. But since it's also the title of the chapter, I'd say it's that plus a hint at Linden's past.

Agreed. I'll have to drop my previous interpretation. I think though
that the 'my daughter' is a reference to redemption. By saving
the Land (which was bleeding to death in a way because of the
Sunbane) Linden can save her father in a psychological sense.
And as I recall the blood-letting ritual was taken by Foul
directly from Linden's experience. Linden in the Land was forced
to live through her nightmare with her father day after day,
and this was worsened by her health-sense. In the end I fear
she may end up doing to the Land what she did to her mother.

A more common interpretation of that theme would not be the Land, but...

Syl wrote:A more common interpretation of that theme would not be the Land, but...

Is there a common interpretation out there that I should know about?

Girls and their fathers, that's all I'm saying.

"My father -- " There she nearly faltered. She had never exposed this much of herself to anyone. But now for the first time her craving to be healed outweighed her old revulsion. "He was about your age when he died. He even looked a bit like you." And like the old man whose life she had saved on Haven Farm. "Without the beard. But he wasn't like you. He was pathetic."

Syl wrote:Girls and their fathers, that's all I'm saying.

"My father -- " There she nearly faltered. She had never exposed this much of herself to anyone. But now for the first time her craving to be healed outweighed her old revulsion. "He was about your age when he died. He even looked a bit like you." And like the old man whose life she had saved on Haven Farm. "Without the beard. But he wasn't like you. He was pathetic."

Physician, heal thyself!

I wish i knew who Linden was talking about in that quote.

I believe that one subtext of the Chronicles is Christian. At the very least we know that Covenant's first and last names can be directly related back to the Bible.

There's also the fact that the First Chronicles take place (in the Real World) during the forty days of Lent plus the seven days of Holy Week (47 years pass in the Land) with Covenant awakening back to life on Easter morning.

Aleksandr wrote:

I believe that one subtext of the Chronicles is Christian. At the very least we know that Covenant's first and last names can be directly related back to the Bible.

There's also the fact that the First Chronicles take place (in the Real World) during the forty days of Lent plus the seven days of Holy Week (47 years pass in the Land) with Covenant awakening back to life on Easter morning.

How did you figure that out?

Wow. Yea, uh, I wanna know as well how you figured out the Lent thing, Worm. I'm one of those readers who reads for enjoyment and doesn't try to figure out stuff like chronology. But now you make me want to go back to the First Chrons and re-read to see where you picked up the timeline.

Speaking of Christian-related themes, we could go on and on about this one. Blood is a recurring theme in the TC books, particularly the 2nd Chrons. The Blood of Christ is central to the Christian faith. Without the spilling of that Blood, there would BE no Christian faith. Martyrs exist in plenty, but only One that had resurrected. And I can't talk about THAT in this forum. Man, we have to be so carefull!!!!!!!

Rocksister wrote:Wow. Yea, uh, I wanna know as well how you figured out the Lent thing, Worm. I'm one of those readers who reads for enjoyment and doesn't try to figure out stuff like chronology. But now you make me want to go back to the First Chrons and re-read to see where you picked up the timeline.

You've responded to the wrong person, someone else out figured
out the "Lent thing."

Rocksister wrote:Speaking of Christian-related themes, we could go on and on about this one. Blood is a recurring theme in the TC books, particularly the 2nd Chrons. The Blood of Christ is central to the Christian faith. Without the spilling of that Blood, there would BE no Christian faith. Martyrs exist in plenty, but only One that had resurrected. And I can't talk about THAT in this forum. Man, we have to be so carefull!!!!!!!

I haven't read the 2nd Chrons since 25 years ago. And I don't
know what you're being so careful of, whatever the forum rules
are I don't believe anybody in charge has banned discussing
Christian faith or martyrdom.

Syl wrote:Normally, I'd say it's just the expected form of a god addressing a mortal. But since it's also the title of the chapter, I'd say it's that plus a hint at Linden's past.

Nailed it in one, IMO.

EDIT: Hmmm, maybe an ironic response given the last few posts. I don't know whether SRD is a Christian or not, but blood and blood rites are pretty common in a variety of religions.