Fatal Musings: Some Other Perils of Time Travel

Book 2 of the Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant

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Fatal Musings: Some Other Perils of Time Travel

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Should Donaldson have meddled with the Land's past?

Don't fix what's not broken.
-- Robert Atkins

In The Runes of the Earth, Donaldson introduced time travel to the Land. The Laws of Death and of Life are broken, and Joan's wild magic is fracturing the Arch of Time, allowing ceasures to wreak havoc to sequentiality. In addition, powerful beings, who are now capable of time travel -- or who have always been capable -- appear on the story's stage.

Within the first volume of the Final Chronicles, there is a substantial amount of temporal legerdemain. Anele has been snatched from his time and thrown forward by a ceasure, and Liand says that other people in the Land have entered ceasures and are never seen again. Linden uses ceasures with more control, to obtain the Staff of Law and return again. Esmer seems to move about in time at will, and hints that any Elohim could do the same. He is able to carry a horde of Demondim with him as jumps back and forth on the time line, who in turn weild a ceasure to access the Illearth Stone in the Land's distant past.

In all these adventures, the threat of creating a paradox looms. We learn that such paradox threatens the already weakened Arch of Time. And so Linden strives to avoid paradoxes at all costs, even the ones that where thrown under her wheels by Esmer. Even Esmer and the Elohim, in their own mysterious ways, strive to avoid paradoxes as well.

In Fatal Revenant, the perils of time travel reach a new level. Paradoxes can no longer be avoided. Roger's and the Theomach's chicanery place Linden squarely before Berek Lord-Fatherer, and no determination nor skill can prevent past events from being altered.

It turns out that these developments are not fatal to the Arch. The Theomach is able to guide Linden, in some way, through time's nettles safely.
"I assume that what we're doing suits your purpose, whatever that is. But isn't it dangerous? For God's sake, we're about to meet the most famous of the Land's old heroes." Covenant had warned her about ripples. "No matter how careful we are, he'll see and hear things -"

"Lady," the Theomach put in, be at peace." His tone was gentle; meant to soothe her. "I have said that you serve my purpose. Therefore I must serve yours.

"Here the preservation of the Arch need not trouble you. That burden is mine. At great cost, I have garnered knowledge which you lack, and my knowledge is profound. Be assured that I will watch over you. [...]

"Where my guidance is needed, I will provide it. And I will accommodate the effects of both your presence and your deeds. You need only trust in yourself - and heed my counsel. In the fullness of time, my aid will demonstrate its worth."
Accommodate the effects of your presence and your deeds. The Theomach, using his deep well of knowledge, can choose a path for Linden that does not endanger the Arch. Simply put, he makes sure that the ramifications of any actions Linden takes are not greatly different than would occur otherwise. He doesn't prevent time from being changed (if it is, indeed, changed), but he ensures that such changes are small enough that their ripples quickly disappear rather than snowball.

So: Time is mutable, but it is also lenient. You can change the past, if the changes are small enough to be repaired, healed over. It's the gross disruptions that are the danger. The Theomach guards Linden against mistaken actions and unconsidered words, and spins tales to Lord Berek, and Linden even extracts an oath of silence from Berek. In these ways, the Arch is preserved.

Although the danger is averted, Donaldson hasn't yet revealed to us, the readers, how to consider the alternate timeline that was created by Linden meeting Berek. Is there only one version of those events, are are there now two versions, coexisting in some way? Was the sequence of events altered, or have the events that came to pass always been as they were revealed to us? Is there a paradox, or not? We can speculate, but we do not know. The only thing we can be sure of are the events as Linden sees them.

But there are other perils to be faced when we alter the past. Those that are not faced by the characters in the story, but by the author; the aftermath is felt by us, the readers.

Let's introduce a phrase: historical reinterpretation - the process of revisiting something that is in the story's past and, through a new point of view, discovering that those events weren't what we thought they were. First the story establishes "what happened", either as the story unfolds, or through expositional material. Subsequently, usually in the manner of a surprise, heretofore unknown details are discovered that cause us to reinterpret "what happened". We discover that "what happened" wasn't really what we thought had happened at all.

Historical reinterpretation can happen in a number of ways; it is not limited to time travel stories. Sometimes the author can add revelatory passages where the point of view is in the story's past. Or characters may discover diaries, recordings or other kinds of clues that provide new information from the past. Or, as was common in the Gap Cycle, the author can change the point of view to a character who, having different information, interpreted the same event in a different way.

When you link historical reinterpretation with time travel, you get "The Back To The Future Effect". The Back to the Future movies are a familiar demonstration of combining time-travel with historical reinterpretation. When Marty travels back in time and goes to the Under the Sea Dance, it completely revises the audience's understanding of how his parents became a couple; when he goes back again, it changes that understanding again. Historical reinterpretations are layered on, one at a time, each layer unforseen by the one before.

Historical reinterpretation can be an exciting addition to a story. Changing the interpretation of past events can create unexpected plot twists, or resolve apparent mysteries. It can also create an element of suspense in a time travel story, as the time traveller finds a way to navigate through historical events without changing them.

But such things come at a price. When a story provides a new interpretation of past events, the old interpretation must be discarded. If the original way of looking at those elements had any sort of value to the story, then that value is sacrificed in the process.

For readers form opinions and pass judgements on the characters and events in a story; they like or dislike, respect or resent, are turned on or turned off by what they read about. If they like what they read, they are endeared; they invest themselves; they care. So: the reader's good opinion and emotional investment are the things of value that we are speaking of here.

The more a reader cares for certain aspect of a story, the more risk the author takes when they force the reader to revise their opinion of that aspect. If they are skillful, they can replace something enjoyable with something more enjoyable - and that in itself is enjoyable. If they are unwise, the replacement will be inferior, and the reader is disappointed not only in what they lost, and also in the sequence of events that led to the unfortunate re-evaluation.

The author owes us no guarantees that we can continue to look at things the same way forever. And he or she can challenge our intellect and elevate an experience by attacking our assumptions.

But once an opinion is changed, it cannot be restored. Memories and subsequent rereadings are tainted by those opinions. When the reader rereads the initial version of events, they cannot help but remember their revised opinion. Once they learn that the good guy turns out to be the bad guy, they cannot help but suspect everything the bad guy does when they read the story again. Once they learn that an unfortunate event is necessary for the final victory, the event will never seem so unfortunate on further tellings.

This is what makes historical reinterpretation dangerous: the risk that the reader was happier with the original interpretation than he is with the new one. The more the reader has invested in the original, the more dangerous it is to make changes. The worst such changes are considered "sacriligous".

Fans of The Chronicles are certainly invested. In the first Chronicles, we had grown to admire the dedication, the tenacity, and the moral strength of the new Lords. We had come to stand in awe of the Old Lords, who surpassed the new in many ways, and represented a state of grace from which the world had fallen. We loved the idea of the Unfettered, an intellectual freedom cherished rather than subverted by the powers that be. And white gold - the incarnation of wild magic - the beloved and critical link that represents the fated relationship between Thomas Covenant and the Land. These are all sacred things.

As a reader, I was a bit mortified at some of the things that Donaldson was playing with in Fatal Revenant. In my opinion, he had tread too close to the sacred. And I was somewhat disappointed in the end result. I cannot help but feel that some things were better left alone. From reading the comments of others, I'm sure that there are others that feel the same way.

Let's start by considering hurtloam, the healing gift of the Earth. We know that the people of the Land knew of hurtloam. Now we have discovered that they first learned of it from Linden, in Berek's camp, in that far away time prior to the age of the Old Lords, when health-sense was just awakening.
"Have you seen any mud - or fine sand - that sparkles? Gleams? Like it has bits of gold in it? Or flecks of sunlight?"

Berek's frown deepened. "I have, my lady." Plainly he wanted to inquire, What do you know of this? How is it that you comprehend my transformation? But he did not. "It lies along the flow of water in streams and rivers. Sadly, I have no lore to name it."

Her heart lifted a little. "Is there any of it nearby?"

"There is, my lady." Again he did not question her. "We endeavor to place our encampments near water, as armies must. A creek lies a stone's throw distant. When we broke the ice to draw water, I glimpsed a sand such as you describe."

To herself, Linden breathed, Thank God. "It's called hurtloam." Unexpected hope filled her with trembling. "It's full of the same power that's changing you, the same power that you saw in the Fire-Lions. It heals."
Is the Land, or it's people, dimmed in our sight when we learn of this interpretation of history? Is the wonder of hurtloam cheapened when it is used by Linden as leverage for earning Berek's good will? Consider what Lena first said of it:
Lena dropped her eyes and answered quietly, "There is power in the Earth - power and life. You must know this. Atiaran my mother says that such things as hurtloam, such powers and mysteries, are in all the Earth - but we are blind to them because we do not share enough, with the Land and with each other."
The people of the Land believed that hurtloam was a gift from the Earth. And that finding such gifts is made possible through service, to the Earth and each other. But now we can see that they did't find it at all, that it was shown to them in order to expedite Linden's mission. It seems that the people in the Land were mistaken to think that the existance of hurtloam signified anything about their worth. Just as they are mistaken that there are other mysteries which might be revealed if they share enough.

Furthermore, Donaldson further erodes the mystery of hurtloam by providing us with a rationalization, in the spirit of midi-chlorians.
"There are a lot of springs under that mountain," Jeremiah continued. "They come out together at the base of the cliff. Most of them are just water, but one of them is EarthBlood. It's only a trickle, but it's intense — When the Black River pours out into Garroting Deep, it's full of Earthpower. That's part of why the Deep is so deadly. Caerroil Wildwood draws some of his strength from the river.

"Of course, it gets diluted. The Black joins the Mithil, and after that you can hardly tell it comes from Melenkurion Skyweir. But the Last Hills are right on the edge of Garroting Deep. From there, the power of the EarthBlood spreads into the plains. All that hurtloam is sort of a side effect," he concluded. "Earthpower has been seeping out of the mountain practically forever. Maybe that's why the One Forest used to cover the whole Land. Back in those days - ages ago - you could have mined hurtloam along every stream and river in the Center and South Plains."

His explanation saddened Linden.
Donaldson's historical reinterpretation of the Unfettered is more of the same.

In the first Chronicles, we had come to know, respect, and even cherish the idea of the Unfettered. That the Lords were so open, and so respectful of the myriad ways that talent can manifest itself, they they created the institution of the Unfettered, and celebrated the differences of the people who chose the unbeaten path. The Creator works in mysterious ways, and the Lords were humble enough to recognize that they cannot see all ends, or know all truths.

But now we know that the idea of the Unfettered did not originate with the Lords. No, it originated with a crafty lie told by the Theomach to Berek in order to cover Linden's tracks. I can imagine him slyly saying, "Linden is ... an Unfettered ... yeah, that's the ticket."

Sure, the Lords still deserve praise for recognizing a good idea when they see it. But that's not the same as thinking of the idea in the first place. I cannot help but feel that the images of the Lords and the Rites of Unfettering was diminished here. The Lords don't deserve any credit for the invention. Every time I re-read Lord Foul's Bane, and encounter Atairan's introduction to the Unfettered, I won't be able to help remembering the Theomach standing before Berek, making up stories to explain Linden's actions.
"There are those from the Loresraat," she said, "who find that they cannot work for the Land or the Lore of the Old Lords in the company of their fellows-Lords or Lorewardens, the followers of Sword or Staff. Those have some private vision which compels them to seek it in isolation. But their need for aloneness does not divide them from the people. They are given the Rites of Unfettering, and freed from all common demands, to quest after their own lore with the blessing of the Lords and the respect of all who love the Land. For the Lords learned long ago that the desire for aloneness need not be a selfish desire, if it is not made so by those who do not feel it.
And what of the Seven Words?

Yes, it's very exciting to discover what all seven words are. Even more special is discovering what they mean.

But, as with the Unfettered, the seven words are no discovery of the Old Lords. Once again, we have to recognize that seven words did not originate with the Lords, or the people of the Land, but with the Theomach. And that the Theomach provided them to the Old Lords in order to serve his own ambitions. In some way, the stature of the Old Lords is diminished in our eyes; they cannot claim full credit for this accomplishment. It was another kernel of unearned knowledge.

Donaldson seems to have been thinking along these very lines, and perhaps recognized that he could go too far. He manages to contrive events in order to reserve a bit of dignity for poor old Berek.
"Nonetheless," the Theomach continued, "a form of speech occurred. Words became known to you, Words which you did not hear, and which you could not comprehend. Because they had been given to you, their puissance was evident. Also no other course remained to you. Therefore you uttered them aloud. When the Fire-Lions replied, you were as astonished as your foes.

"Since that moment, however, the Words have gone from you. You recall them
only in dreams, and when you awaken, naught but sorrow remains.
The words were granted to Berek, but they left him, and he could not recall them. The Theomach, therefore, only helped Berek recall words he already knew - he did not give them to him outright. And so Berek remains a participant in their discovery, albeit one that requires help, and can claim some credit for the accomplishment of discovering the seven words.

But without the Theomach, he would never have learned what they meant, or how to use them.

In this, and in many other ways, the Lords themselves have been tainted by historical reinterpretation.

Berek was a reluctant warlord plagued by visions he could not comprehend or master when the Theomach joined with him. He was merely the unadept leader of a revolution against his monarch. His experiences on Mount Thunder were an enigma that provided scant help in his battles. Health-sight was an affliction spreading through his troops; not understood, it hindered his men more than it helped them.

To have persevered under these conditions, overcome those obstacles, and to have created from it a governance of the Land by a Council of Lords, would be an awesome accomplishment, worthy of a man called Lord-Fatherer.

But it was the Theomach who is behind all of these good things. "The Theomach found a place as the Lord-Fatherer's tutor", said the Mahdoubt. Under the guidance of the Insequent, Berek learned the Words of Power. Under his continued tutelage, he eventually became a High Lord. Presumably, the Council of Lords, with its premises, traditions, and purposes followed, were all devised with the Theomach's guidance.

The most powerful of the human forces for the preservation of the Land was a side effect of the Theomach's ambition to get to the One Tree.

And, finally, we must speak of the white gold.

There is wild magic graven in every rock,
contained for white gold to unleash or control


White gold and wild magic were a mystery to the people of the Land. It was never something that the knew a lot about, it was rather something that they had heard of, that was hinted at, that was mentioned in murky history of time, in occult foretellings. Prothall said, "Knowledge of white gold has come down to us through the ancient prophecies". And yet, Kevin knew enough about white gold to design Amok so that he responded to it's presence. And Amok said, "It is spoken of softly by the Bhrathair, and named in awe by the Elohim, though they have never seen it. Great Kelenbhrabanal dreams of it in his grave, and grim Sandgorgons writhe in voiceless nightmare at the touch of its name. In his last days, High Lord Kevin yearned for it in vain."

Wild white magic gold. The legendary pinnacle of power, beyond the reach of desire or lore -- never seen until Thomas Covenant arrives in the Land.

If white gold is indeed the substance of the Arch of Time, then you may think that this is sufficient in and of itself to explain why it is known to some in the Land, albeit shrouded in mystery. But it is not. The Creator could not tell anyone, nor would he if he could. The Elohim may know of it, but they would not share such knowledge, even if the people of the Land had actually met them. And no one can actually approach the Arch of Time to take a sample and analyze it. So it is a mystery as to how the people of the Land came to know of it.

Well, at last Donaldson has revealed how the mystery of white gold came to be known.
With the other, she indicated Covenant's hidden ring. "This is white gold." She felt that she was accepting responsibility for all of the Earth's millennia as she said. "It wields the wild magic that destroys peace. But it isn't natural here.

"If you want to know more, you'll have to ask the Theomach."
I don't know about anyone else, but I felt the earth move when I read those lines. She's telling Berek about white gold! In my eyes, she certainly was accepting responsibility for the millenia.

Fortunately, this means nothing to Berek. "It conveys naught," he says. So, there are, as yet, no legends of white gold. Berek doesn't see any significance in her words. She may as well have said, I've got 6 gigs of RAM and a dual core CPU. Linden did not reveal anything.

But the Theomach, we may be sure, subsequently did. Ask the Theomach. We know that subsequent to these events, Berek and the Theomach discussed Linden, for the Mahdoubt tells us that the Theomach claimed she was an Unfettered. And they discussed many other things. The Theomach found a place as the Lord-Fatherer's tutor. So presumably the Theomach imparted knowledge of white gold as well.

But does that fit with what we know? If the Theomach had taught Berek about the white gold, would such knowledge in later years be considered "ancient prophesy"? Would not any knowledge, be it small or voluminous, be as well kept as knowledge of the words of power, or of hurtloam? It doesn't seem to make sense that this knowledge would slip away until almost gone. And surely some would remember that it originated with Berek?!

(Don't even ask why no one remembers that Berek had a tutor of suspiciously unfathomable knowledge. I'm sure that the Theomach took care of that.)

These questions may or may not be significant. What is significant is that the mystery of white gold has been dragged out of the dark corners of the story and brought into the light, where it can be seen to in poor shape - slightly broken, unkempt, and in need of propping up. It was, in many respects, better off where it was. If Donaldson needed to pull the origins of the knowledge of white gold out onto the stage, we have to wonder why it wasn't treated with a little more care - made strong and tight and polished.

After only one reading of Fatal Revenant, my overall impression of Donaldson's use of historical reinterpretation is that I wish he didn't. I cannot help but think that things that I respected and admired and enjoyed ended up worse off for being explored anew. I don't think that the author intended this to happen, nor do I believe it was for a higher purpose. I think that it just suffered, perhaps needlessly. Then, the Final Chronicles are not over, and there is a chance that these dissapointments will fade.
Last edited by wayfriend on Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by dlbpharmd »

Well written as always, WF. I echo this line:
I cannot help but think that things that I respected and admired and enjoyed ended up worse off for being explored anew.
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Post by Seareach »

Yes, well written WF.

I admit that I'm not as "precious" about these things as other people are (and I don't mean the use of the word "precious" in a negative way). And, well, there were a lot of people asking to learn more about the history of the Land.

SRD has always said that time is "linear"...which I don't kinda understand because that would then mean that what Linden did in the past was *always* the way things were...which I would argue they obviously weren't... :? I'll put my hand up and say "I don't get it" :biggrin:

But, taking one of your examples:
The people of the Land believed that hurtloam was a gift from the Earth. And that finding such gifts is made possible through service, to the Earth and each other. But now we can see that they did find it at all, that it was shown to them in order to expedite Linden's mission.
I don't see why *both* explanations for the discovery of hurtloam can't be possible. When I was doing my archaeology degree, what we often talked about was how the same discovery would be made over time in different places over the globe. For example: there is absolutely no reason to believe that the ability to make fire was only discovered once and that that knowledge then fanned out across the globe.

The way I see it, the same can be said about hurtloam. Just because Linden shows Berek and his followers hurtloam does not mean that what Elena says is not/was not/can no longer be true.

When it comes to Linden's actions in the past, I think you've got to think multiple causality. I don't necessarily think Linden's actions in the past completely rewrites history (makes what you've been told in the previous novels inaccurate). But I do understand what you're saying--and for those of you who are "closer" to the text I suppose that the things that happen in Fatal Revenant might leave you thinking "I didn't really want to know that."
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Post by ninjaboy »

Also, you're forgetting that Berek agreed not to speak of Linden or anything which she had done.. The Theomach completely covered up their presence in that time. I don't see that there's any discrepancy. She told Berek the paradox of the White Gold - fair enough,I thought that was very clever - and agreed she began the stories of the Unfetterred Ones.

But Berek would have ensured that all mention of Linden's presence was forgotten, as that was what she'd requested of him. Therefore Berek himself would have been the one to spread the Story of Hurtloam after the war, aas the First of the Lords..

Berek HAD to get that info from Somewhere, and his relaying of the stories - about the White Gold, about Hurtloam, the One Tree - either the Theomach would have told him what to say or Berek would have come up with it himself - and whatever he did actually tell the people about Hurtloam, that evolved over thousands of years and Desecration into what Lena told Covenant in the First Chronichles. He HAD to omit any reference to Lena or the Theomach and the history of the Land has not changed.

The legends are the same, but we just have a better understanding of what actually happenned.. AS if OUR history books of our own damn world are complete..

I really don't see how any of what we read changed anything.. And the other thing about Time travel is - who knows how long the Insequent have meen doing it???
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Post by Ur Dead »

I agree with Ninjaboy on this assesment. I always wondered how the Queens champion was able to become a loremaster and create the first staff of law. How did Berek know where to get the staff? Covenant got his knowledge from the forrestal, so how did a landlover sudddenly in a relative short span of years be able to find the one tree?

I can't recall if Linden was ever told about hurloam in the second chronicles but it was Foul in Runes who showed her what it was. She just passed that knowledge on, in her personal future to a person of the past.
The unfettereds may have been something that the Theomach created to explain Linden to Berek. But it could have been Berek and his son who incorporated it as a path of specialized loremasters to follow an advancement in a particular area. It is expected that they(Berek and his decendants) would teach others and some of the students would show a promise in an area of lore and surpass the teachers ability and knowlege.
Linden ability was to heal and the other lore's are not available to her.
She couldn't create a "Word of Warding", she didn't know how. But she could heal people with amazing results that could have rival or even surpass any of the Old Lords.

The history of the Old High Lords were incomplete and mired in verbal hearsay as ancient legends. Alot of the true history was lost right after Kevin's RoD.
How much of Berek's knowledge and experiences were recorded or not recorded by Berek. There was never a written account of the Old Lord histories mentioned anywhere.
And how much lore was learned by Kevin from his fathers and how much was taught to him by others, as well as his father may have been taught additional lore? We don't have those answers from the first chronicles.

I can't see any paradox right now as these later books are written. It seems it very linear to the Land's history as remembered in the first chronicles.
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Post by amanibhavam »

Very well written, Wayfriend - I would even consider to send it to the GI. SRD often states over there that he does not like unwanted criticism but this is very well presented and argued throughout, hardly a rant.



Finally: although I am not a member, this all sequence of events also has a THOOLAH-aspect to it... It's bad enough that we learn that the main legends of the Land have been reverse-mutated into the history of it, but that it had to be Linden of all persons to initiated all the sacred lores and legends!!... that's a shame. Just imagine now the conversation between the newly resurrected TC and LA: "White gold that destroys peace..." "Yeah I know honey, I told them about it in the first place, now move on..." :twisted:
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Post by Seareach »

amanibhavam wrote:Very well written, Wayfriend - I would even consider to send it to the GI. SRD often states over there that he does not like unwanted criticism but this is very well presented and argued throughout, hardly a rant.
I wouldn't.

The overall vibe of what Wayfriend says is summed up in his last paragraph:
After only one reading of Fatal Revenant, my overall impression of Donaldson's use of historical reinterpretation is that I wish he didn't. I cannot help but think that things that I respected and admired and enjoyed ended up worse off for being explored anew.
...and, well, this is only *my* opinion, but how constructive is that???...

..."half of Fatal Revenant sucks, Mr Donaldson, but *please* get off your ass and get the next novel finished."
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Post by iQuestor »

WF, Well thought, well written, as always.

I see your point on much of this -- I remember a line my Dad used to use:

People who respect the Law, and love sausage, should never watch either being made.

things that seem magical and flawless generally lose their charm when explained.

that being said, yes, Berek lost some shine, as did the Old Lords, but it didnt affect me as deeply as it seemed to affect you. Berek was a man in extraordinary circumstances, and now we find he had some help, got some knowledge from mundane sources rather than divine. He still fought with all he had until he had nothing left, still preserved his people and his beleifs against all odds, was still a great hero and deserving of his legends.
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Post by Usivius »

For me in that instance, Berek is still "the MAN". It did nothing but give him a little bit of 'real' quality, and humanity. We already know he is almost divine in the history and folklore of The Land. To see him like that brought a tear to my eye. I thought it was all extraordinarily beautiful.
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Post by Xar »

Usivius wrote:For me in that instance, Berek is still "the MAN". It did nothing but give him a little bit of 'real' quality, and humanity. We already know he is almost divine in the history and folklore of The Land. To see him like that brought a tear to my eye. I thought it was all extraordinarily beautiful.
I agree here... obviously Berek could not have been as near-divine as he was made to be in the legends of the Land during the time of the New Lords; he was, after all, a mortal man - albeit a special one - and had to have flaws somewhere. I think that the Berek we see in FR is actually more awe-inspiring than the mythical version - mostly because here we see a man who went through an epiphany which he cannot yet comprehend after being seriously wounded and rebelling against his own liegeman for the sake of his Queen, and who STILL has the strength to go on, to lead and rally his troops. How many people could do half as well as he does in the same circumstances? And after all, he HAD to get informations from somewhere - even if you follow the legend to the letter, it's hard to believe that when the earth spoke to him, it revealed the whole lore of Earthpower, the Seven Words, where to find the One Tree, how to build a Staff of Law, what hurtloam was, and so on... Even assuming that the mythical version of Berek had less refined lore than the one possessed by Damelon, Loric and Kevin (after all, the next generations of the Old Lord refined and expanded that lore), it was still an awful amount of lore for Berek to acquire in a single lifetime, even extended by Earthpower. It makes sense that he had a mentor of some sort - and I also appreciate the irony that the knowledge of white gold came to him in the form of a paradox in the first place - Linden, carrying the white gold ring that saved the Land, prompting Berek to learn about white gold, which in turn would lead to him learning about its future role in the Land's survival, which would lead to the prophecy of white gold being passed down the ages until a younger Covenant would hear it and fulfill it before passing the ring on to Linden, who in turn went back in time and... well, you know what I mean. And as for hurtloam - even if it was Linden who explained how to use it for the first time, it does not mean that its existence in the first place might not be linked to the worth of the people of the Land... in fact, upon learning of its properties, it's likely that people would say "why, this mud actually heals people... this must be a gift from our land to help us in our struggle!" regardless of who explained how to use it!

If anything, in short, I think what Donaldson shows us adds to the heroism of Berek and his people by showing us the reality behind the myth of the Lord-Fatherer... And it's very likely that if we could go back in time and meet Julius Caesar or Napoleon or any other legendary historical character, we would find out they, too, are more human and less mythical than our knowledge of them.
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Post by Atrium »

I agree with the general idea that time travel is a perilous device, especially in a fantasy setting. But the examples you bring up didnt make me feel at all let down. I enjoyed the whole first part of FR, and the insights we got into the Lands past. For example i liked the idea that the earth blood running out into the black river had some effect on the region around it. Seems logical. And i guess that the people of the Land would have found out about hurtloam eventually, if Linden hadnt told Berek first.

The worst example to my mind of badly handled timetraveling in the last Chronicles was Lindens first trip to the past to get the Staff of Law. It felt just plain unneccesary to the story. As did the appearence of the Demondim.
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Post by iQuestor »

XAR said
If anything, in short, I think what Donaldson shows us adds to the heroism of Berek and his people by showing us the reality behind the myth of the Lord-Fatherer... And it's very likely that if we could go back in time and meet Julius Caesar or Napoleon or any other legendary historical character, we would find out they, too, are more human and less mythical than our knowledge of them.
well said. i agree.
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Post by dlbpharmd »

Regarding Berek, I always imagined that the Earth just "spoke" to him and told him to find the One Tree and to make a tool to use the Earthpower. Now that I know this isn't the case, there is some detraction from the overall beauty of the story of Berek. However, I think SRD's version, now told, makes much more sense to me.

Someone said above that we (the fans) have clamored for the history of the Land for years now and this is absolutely true - I've often wished for a prequel to 1st Chronicles. It's not SRD's fault that the story he's told us doesn't match what I've daydreamed about for 25 years. I can handle and accept what he's told us about Berek and Linden. The part that bugs me more than anything else is the change in the story of the Guardian of the One Tree. I hope that he provides some better explanation to that as we go along.
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Post by Relayer »

Excellent post WF, I totally understand what you're saying. But I mostly agree w/ the posters who say that this doesn't really change anything, and I enjoyed almost all of the expansion of the history, although it certainly does require that we stretch ourselves to include the new versions of events.
dlbpharmd wrote:It's not SRD's fault that the story he's told us doesn't match what I've daydreamed about for 25 years.
Certainly... we've all had our own fantasies about the untold elements of the Land. If these books came out immediately after 2TCTC, or for someone just reading the whole thing now, this would be much less of a question.

-----

Remember that what someone like Atiaran or Lena tells TC is to essentially a "folk story" passed down over the centuries. Sure, in some ways the people of the Land remember their past better than we do here, but there's certainly room for different interpretations and for the story to modify over time. Especially as ur-Dead says, much was lost after the RoD, like was lost during the Dark Ages of Europe. The people of the Land at the time of the First Chrons are essentially a very simple folk. One of the things that makes them so beautiful.

Also, Donaldson knows what he did, he set it all up first... when he has Covenant (Roger) going on and on about Berek in the "drinking scene" he's preparing us for a new story (although we didn't know it at the time), and then when the Theomach (I think) makes a comment about the "historical stories of the Land are both oversimplifications, and they build up people in unrealistic ways to make them seem more heroic." Which is exactly what we're debating here ;-) ... He's saying that to us as much as to Linden.
Seareach wrote:
The people of the Land believed that hurtloam was a gift from the Earth. And that finding such gifts is made possible through service, to the Earth and each other. But now we can see that they did find it at all, that it was shown to them in order to expedite Linden's mission.
The way I see it, the same can be said about hurtloam. Just because Linden shows Berek and his followers hurtloam does not mean that what Elena says is not/was not/can no longer be true.
I agree with this. In addition, one could say that the gift of hurtloam was given to Berek *because* he was already in service to the Earth - he earned it. And gifts don't always have to come only directly through "supernatural" means... ( It reminds me of that old story of the guy who was trapped by a flood... along comes a boat, but the guy refuses, saying "God will save me." After he drowns he complained to God, who said "heck, I sent you a boat!" So in this case, whatever passes for Great Spirit in the Land said "I sent you Linden and the Theomach." )

I also agree w/ Usuvius, it made Berek more real. Which also was the point of all the tapestry-bashing Roger did (I need to reread that part now that I know what comes later). I wish there had been more scenes w/ Berek. Maybe a battle scene or something, or a longer conversation about his experiences on Mt. Thunder, etc.
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Post by Aleksandr »

Is the Land, or it's people, dimmed in our sight when we learn of this interpretation of history?
IMO, no. Obviously the people of the Land pre-Berek knew nothing of Earthpower and had no health-sense. They would not have fallen for the Ravers' persuasions and certainly would not have felled the One Forest if they had. So they had to learn these things somehow. Nothing I read in FR "cheapened" my perceptions of them or of the Land. They had to learn and someone taught them. What matters is not that they had to be taught, but that they were willing to learn. Imagine applying that lesson to our own world. How easy could we give up our current perceptions and technologies to serve the Earth even if we had some pussiant being at hand to teach us how to use Earthpower so we would not starve or suffer other consequences of abandonning our current way of life? In FR Donaldson shows us a great inflection point in the Land's histiory: the beginning of the Earth-service. That Linden and the Theomach are interjected into it does not trivialize it at all for me.
The people of the Land believed that hurtloam was a gift from the Earth. And that finding such gifts is made possible through service, to the Earth and each other. But now we can see that they did't find it at all, that it was shown to them in order to expedite Linden's mission.
I don't see your point here. Hurtloam remains a gift from the Earth. But the earlier peoples of the Land lacked the knowledge of it. Hurtloam itself is no different in my perceptions after reading FR. All we have here is someone teaching the Landspeople about hurtloam. The alternative to that would be that someone stumbled on its healing powers totally by accident. I actually prefer the teaching route to that knowledge than the random accident route. Much of our science and technology is the result of accidental discovery. I don't think we are the better for it.
Once again, we have to recognize that seven words did not originate with the Lords, or the people of the Land, but with the Theomach.
Actually, it's hinted at they come from the Elohim. And again, I don't have an issue with someone teaching them to the people of the Land. The crucial thing is that the Landspeople were willing to abide by the Words. they aren't just hocus-pocus incantations like the jumbled pseudo-Latin of Harry Potter's world. The Words mean something, something difficult to express in human language, but something vital to their very potency. Learning that made me appreciate them more.
But now we know that the idea of the Unfettered did not originate with the Lords.
I too was bothered by this, but for a rather practical reason: the Unfettered were unfettered from the duties of Lords. Before there were Lords how could there be Unfettered? SRD would have done better to have used Linden as the prototype for the Lords themselves: one dedicated to the Earthservice and capable of working great things with that lore. After all, in FR we see a Land that is still a place of monarchs and warriors; Berek's queen still reigns (I wonder what ultimately became of her?) It's a world that we can recognize from our own ancient history. Somehow the Land has to make the transition from that to the very different (and unknown in our history) social order we meet in LFB. If you think about it that change is an astonishing one, unlike anything we know from our past. I'd be OK with Linden and the Theomach being the cause of it.
But it was the Theomach who is behind all of these good things.
The Theomach is playing the role of Merlin, of Gandalf, of Obi Wan and Yoda. It's a rather standard fantasy role (and literary archetype): tutor to the Hero. Donaldson hasn't used it before this, but I don't see anything fraudulent in it.

And one final comment: I think we have to beware of treating the Legend of Berek Halfhand (and other tales of the Land's far past) the way some Christians treat the Bible, requiring every word to be literally and not just mythically true.
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Post by Stutty »

Wow, what great posts all. It is a tribute to all of Donaldson's writings that he can stir up such ponderance in so many gifted minds.

For my meager opinion, put my mark on the side that likes having the veil pulled back some to reveal the legends' not so legendary bits.

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Post by ninjaboy »

Yay! Some very intelligent postings in here.. Though by 'Intelligent' I mean ones that support my earlier argument..

It is true that meeting some of the Land's old heroes 'in person' has changed our opinions of them.. I suppose this way we can form our own opinions of the people of the Land's historyy, not just through Myths & Legends.. If you get my meaning..

Showing Bereks humanity is not an Unexpected thing.. We all know how human, how weak, how 'unheroic' Covenant was in the First Chronichles, and he's become such a Hero to the people of the land..

That's actually why I loved the books originally, the main Character was so human and had all these expectations on him and only through the love his friends showed him did he survive and eventually get the power to win..

Despite the fact that going to the Lands history allows us to meet all these wonderful characters we'd all heard about, and how much more exciting and scary and just gosh darn crazy the Last Chronichles has become because of it, I have to say there's a part of me that wouldl've preferred Donaldson to write stories of the history of the land, and of other peoples of the land, in a seperate book...
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Post by IrrationalSanity »

Aleksandr wrote:
But now we know that the idea of the Unfettered did not originate with the Lords.
I too was bothered by this, but for a rather practical reason: the Unfettered were unfettered from the duties of Lords. Before there were Lords how could there be Unfettered?
Unfettered simply means that you are free from the bonds of external authority, and able to persue your own vision wherever it may lead. Berek's time had thier own form of authority, it just wasn't the Lords. I'm sure the Theomach explained that such vision must be honored, just as the Giants honor EarthSight when it manifests. (For all we know, visions that result in Unfettering spring from the same source.)

The main difference is that the Land's Unfettered tend to take their visions into private contemplation, whereas the Giants turn theirs into massive quests.
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Post by wayfriend »

Thanks for your replies, folks. Even if they seem to put me in the minority.

I have no disagreement with anyone that showing Berek as being human and fallible and overwhelmed (and balding!) isn't a bad thing. There were no illusions that were shattered for me. (Although I didn't think the comment Re the bible was fair at all.) He came off quite well the way Donaldson wrote of him. I hope I never implied that I had any issues in this area.

What bothers me is the role of the Theomach. A guy with all the answers and knowledge of the future simply walks into Berek's camp and started solving all of his problems.

Deus ex machina. It's a comment that came up before with FR. If the Theomach had walked up to Linden out of the blue, answered all her questions, taught her everything she needed to know, we'd all feel like the story took the cheap way out. I don't feel any different that this is what happened to Berek.

The old Lords are lessened in my eyes. How could they not be? They can't really claim credit for half of what they did ... they had a great teacher.

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In [u]Lord Foul's Bane[/u] was wrote:So that the plight of the Earth would not be utterly without hope, he sought to help his creation in indirect ways. He guided the Lord-Fatherer to the fashioning of the Staff of Lawa weapon against Despite.
Now we know it wasn't the Creator who guided Berek to the Staff ... it was the Theomach, who used Berek as a way to get to the Guardian of the One Tree. Maybe the Creator still was able to help Berek actually create the Staff once he found the One Tree ... but odds are, it was probably the Theomach.
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Post by iQuestor »

What bothers me is the role of the Theomach. A guy with all the answers and knowledge of the future simply walks into Berek's camp and started solving all of his problems.

I get what you are saying, but I would point out having the knowledge isnt the same as doing the work. its one thing to know the location of the One Tree. Its entirely another to get to it alive and then actually make a Staff of Law. It took courage, perserverance, and faith on Berek's part.

Sure, Theomach helped him to know what to do, but I am sure there were some strictures Theo had to follow, rather than just giving Berek a blow by blow of what he had to accomplish. I am assuming Berek had to have the 'necessity of Freedom' to make some of the choices he did, or he would simply be Theomach's tool, which would have been bad.

I guess another way to look at it is that someone had to advise berek on the Lands behalf much like the Creator and Foul guided Covenant in the first chrons. He at least started out with some knowledge and then the Lords and others helped him learn about things he needed to know. Berek didnt have that, no one knew anything about earthpower in those days. I know the analogy isnt dead on, but Berek was just coming to know and use Earthpower, how could he have figured out all he accomplished without someone advising him who knew the higher order.

edit : I also get that your dissapointed that the Old Lords didnt seemingly accomplish as much as they did because they had help. WHat is the difference in the Theomach helping Berek make a Staff than the Creator? If you met someone with the powers of the theomach, would he not seem divine? What if Theo is an avatar of the creator?
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