Kevin's Watch

Hi all,

First post, but long time fan of SD (first read Chronicles back in 1991 when I was in yr 9!). I hope this hasn't been discussed elsewhere (I did a search but couldn't find a thread)...

I've got to say that once it got going I liked FR a lot more than Runes. But...one thing that really bugged me was the the seemingly incessant regurgitation of phrases that TC, Foul, Kastenessan or other characters uttered in previous books. I hope you know the ones I mean, I think they are all written in italics.

I'm guessing that SD is using it to act as a counterpoint to what the character is experiencing (or perhaps just to remind us of what happened previously?). Whatever the reason, it really started to give me the !@#$'s during the first few chapters and made it really difficult to get into the book. I did tail off though further into the book.

It feels to me like he's not treating the readers with the respect that they deserve. What do you think...??

D.

ps. I can't believe someone else has grabbed 'Danlo' as their username!! I guess they've got style though...

danloringess wrote:Hi all,

First post, but long time fan of SD (first read Chronicles back in 1991 when I was in yr 9!). I hope this hasn't been discussed elsewhere (I did a search but couldn't find a thread)...

I've got to say that once it got going I liked FR a lot more than Runes. But...one thing that really bugged me was the the seemingly incessant regurgitation of phrases that TC, Foul, Kastenessan or other characters uttered in previous books. I hope you know the ones I mean, I think they are all written in italics.

I'm guessing that SD is using it to act as a counterpoint to what the character is experiencing (or perhaps just to remind us of what happened previously?). Whatever the reason, it really started to give me the !@#$'s during the first few chapters and made it really difficult to get into the book. I did tail off though further into the book.

It feels to me like he's not treating the readers with the respect that they deserve. What do you think...??

D.

ps. I can't believe someone else has grabbed 'Danlo' as their username!! I guess they've got style though...

Naw, it didn't bother me, bit regarding danlo and style....You, my new watchmate, do not know the HALF of it.

Welcome to the Watch!

I doesn't really bother me either. Sure, at one level it's repeating what we know... but I look at it like "this is what Linden is thinking" ... SRD wants us to be in her head, and so we get to experience her thought process. Though there are certainly many here who hate it.

And frankly, there's so much in these books that I can't remember everything. So for each time he repeats something I know ("Good cannot be accomplished...) she'll think about something I forgot, or I'll understand a deeper context for it.

(first read Chronicles back in 1991 when I was in yr 9!).

/reflects back.

I read the first Chronicles in 79 when I was 25...

/raises hand..

Durn Kids! Get out of my yard!!

Ur Dead wrote:

(first read Chronicles back in 1991 when I was in yr 9!).

/reflects back.

I read the first Chronicles in 79 when I was 25...

/raises hand..

Durn Kids! Get out of my yard!!

You can't own property, man!

Yes, that bugged the hell out of me. However, I see this technique used over and over again my many authors and none of them really do anything different with it - it's always some cryptic phrase, or maybe some dubious ethical statement, until some scene at the end of the story finally "makes sense" out of it. Seems a bit contrived to me.

That's not to say that in reality we don't run around remembering phrases that people say - but her rolodex of cryptic phrases and moral generalizations are a bit strung out...maybe even psychotic?

What I also find interesting is how Linden (or even Covenant in the second series) will recollect what someone said - WORD for WORD. Even if it was only said once, 10 freaking years ago. They seem to remember every single little detail of everything that happens. Truly remarkable...

danloringess wrote:I can't believe someone else has grabbed 'Danlo' as their username!! I guess they've got style though...

I am not just someone I am the soul of the Watch! Glad you said "style", if you got pissy I'd have to fenester your lightship into an infinite tree!

ParanoiA wrote: What I also find interesting is how Linden (or even Covenant in the second series) will recollect what someone said - WORD for WORD. Even if it was only said once, 10 freaking years ago. They seem to remember every single little detail of everything that happens. Truly remarkable...

I'm glad I'm not the only one!

Glad you said "style", if you got pissy I'd have to fenester your lightship into an infinite tree!

Shanti my friend...

The echoing of earlier words has been part of Donaldson's style since day one. It's been with us ever since. I think he's used it in every single book he's written.

Nor did I notice it being used more in FR than in other writings.

I think you just finally noticed it.

What Wayfriend said. I don't think he is using it any more in FR than he has in all the other SRD books I have read.

You're quite right you know. When I first read the series I was 14(?) and didn't notice a thing, when I read the second time I was about 23 and started to notice it but wasn't annoyed by it, and this time around I'm 30 and can't stand it (but it's not enough to stop me enjoying it)!!

Probably says more about me than the author...now if I could only work out what that was....

D.

Wayfriend wrote:The echoing of earlier words has been part of Donaldson's style since day one. It's been with us ever since. I think he's used it in every single book he's written.

Nor did I notice it being used more in FR than in other writings.

I think you just finally noticed it.

Wait, are you responding to the echoing of earlier phrases (the OP), or the ridiculous verbatim memory power of SRD's characters?

I've always noticed both, although the repeated quotes from various characters that Linden goes over in her head have doubled, at least. But I think it's necessary since the Last Chronicles seems to almost read like more of a mystery novel, trying to figure out what's going on.

From the GI:

Of course, the whole "lietmotif" technique that became so prominent in the GAP books has been continued in "The Last Chronicles." I've been trashed for this: "All Donaldson ever does is repeat his own sentences." But I think of it as a form of weaving: picking up thematic, emotional, and psychological threads (as well as the occasional simple reminder) from the past of the story and bringing them into the present. A blatant attempt on my part to enrich the narrative tapestry

On the whole, I think it works very successfully.

ParanoiA:

I don't find the verbatim memory that much of a problem. Although, that may be because I remember things like that myself.

Seven Words wrote:ParanoiA:

I don't find the verbatim memory that much of a problem. Although, that may be because I remember things like that myself.

Well, I should probably be more clear that I find that more humorous than anything else. I mean, to stumble through the limitations of actual human memory would be...silly and inefficient.

But I still got to laugh when they recite a freaking paragraph of 10 year old ramblings spot on...

Or, maybe I've just fried so many brain cells that I'm the odd man out here.

Holy Moley! What a username! And you both even went with lower-case letters! Well, I expect you'll be visiting the Hanger, danloringess?

I noticed that some of the flashback quotes in FR seemed a bit out of place...like they had little to do with what was going on.

You're right there drew. The use of the technique by SRD isn't really a problem to me, it's more the way that he (over) uses it to the point that it loses it's effectiveness for me and turns into an annoyance.

It actually reminds me of something I noticed when reading the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan. I can't remember which book it was, but it seemed that on every page he made comment that "Nynaeve sniffed" (ie. in reproach). It didn't take long for me to start keeping a mental tally of how many times Nynaeve sniffed in one day (perhaps she had a cold... ).

D.

I agree with people that say it is SRD style. It is not really new he has used it in all the books of this series. I like it. I think it adds to the story. Makes the characters a bit more real and puts varying contexts to the cryptic messages. Sometimes when they come up u see that the context is slightly different than u suspected.

I love the technique. I love it so much that I've stolen it for my own work. I now consider it just a part of story-telling. It's part of a writer's bag of tricks. No different from foreshadowing, or symbolism, or similes, or any other "trick." Its effectiveness lies in how it is used. Sure, it can be overdone. But I think Donaldson walks that line well.

I especially like when he uses it in a way that it doesn't seem to fit, when the repeated sentence doesn't immediately have an obvious reference. Because I know this is intentional, it must mean that I'm missing something, that there's a deeper resonance here that I must look for. I don't think Donaldson uses the technique in an arbitrary way at all. Those repeated sentences are perhaps his most focused, most intentional sentences in the entire narrative. Those are the clues to what is really going on.