Kevin's Watch

Has anyone here read "The Ruins" by Scott Smith? I remember looking at this book when it came out in hardback and being very interested as the author had previously wrote "A Simple Plan" which was made into a spectacular movie. Anyway, I went to see Cloverfield the other day and I saw a preview for a movie based upon this book. It reminded me about the book and I picked it up in paperback that very night. The book is almost 400 pages and I finished it in two nights. Needless to say I found the story engaging and extremely tense.

For those that haven't read it, I've cut a quote from Stephen King's review of the book on Amazon which provides a plot synopsis:

Stephen King wrote:You've got four young American tourists--Eric, Jeff, Amy, and Stacy--in Cancun. They make friends with a German named Mathias whose brother has gone off into the jungle with some archeologists. These five, plus a cheerful Greek with no English (but a plentiful supply of tequila), head up a jungle trail to find Mathias's brother…the archaeologists…and the ruins.

Well, two out of three ain't bad, according to the old saying, and in this case; what's waiting in the jungle isn't just bad, it's horrible. Most of The Ruins's 300-plus pages is one long, screaming close-up of that horror.

The actual premise would be laughable if you were told about it but, once you are inside the narrative, it works. I wouldn't recommend this one for the squeamish as the book, overall, is bleak, unrelenting, and brutal in places. But I found I couldn't put it down as I love survival stories. Although it is classified as horror, this book is, essentially, a story of survival and the lengths that people will (and will not) go to to survive. It also provides an excruciating examination of the psychological ramifications of ultra-extreme circumstances. It's a downright nasty bit of fiction and probably would not be to everyone's taste just as Palahniuk's "Haunted" split both readers and critics. I'm not saying that Smith is the equivalent of a Palahniuk but only that this type of fiction has a very polarizing effect on readers.

Has anyone read this book? It leaves several open ended questions and I would love to discuss some theories, and some what-if's if anyone else has the interest.

I'm intrigued...is it gruesome in the Alive sort of way?

So that's what that Indiana Jones knockoff-looking thing I saw was.

Here's the trailer: www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWLZcTAcxoo

I saw this attached to a DVD someplace.

**SPOILERS**


I read The Ruins this afternoon and I found it to be gripping and very well written. I liked that it did not have chapters; There was literally no need for them- the first several pages introduce the players and setting in past tense but switches to present tense for the remainder of the story of which time there are no gaps. You are on this journey with them 24/7 from the moment they decide to go. This is the first Scott Smith novel I've read, and I was impressed with his style. I like the short glimpses into the character's past for example Stacy's drunken uncle admonishing her to plan, and Jeff's dad teaching with parables instead of orders, so to speak.

While the characters could definitely acted more intelligently, no one did anything exceedingly stupid (well letting go of the rope kind of qualifies) as is so common in this genre. The downward spiral was well conceived and imagined. I had some difficulty with the fact that they didn't at least try to attack the vine- would it burn, or smother itself out? I understand it was HUGE, but I would have wanted to learn it's strength.

Which brings up the vine itself which is what I presume you want to discuss. I don't know guys- alien, demon, Mercurio? You tell me. I do believe it was malevolent, and that it enjoyed the terror and suffering before the feasting. I also am curious as to just how strong it actually was- which could help explain a lot of things- including the Mayans arrangement with it. The vine was capable of striking quickly, but was it strong enough to overpower a man if it wanted to. I think so.

danlo wrote:I'm intrigued...is it gruesome in the Alive sort of way?

Yes. Worse in my opinion. I think harbinger nails it in his post below when he says that you are with these characters 24/7 throughout the ordeal. The thing is, Smith refuses to shy away from the brutality. It's not gratuitous but he doesn't let the reader off the the hook in any way shape or form.

******SPOILERS AHEAD**********

Harbinger wrote:I read The Ruins this afternoon and I found it to be gripping and very well written. I liked that it did not have chapters; There was literally no need for them- the first several pages introduce the players and setting in past tense but switches to present tense for the remainder of the story of which time there are no gaps. You are on this journey with them 24/7 from the moment they decide to go. This is the first Scott Smith novel I've read, and I was impressed with his style. I like the short glimpses into the character's past for example Stacy's drunken uncle admonishing her to plan, and Jeff's dad teaching with parables instead of orders, so to speak.

I agree, I thought that there were several well done moments during the flashbacks. I particularly liked the one with Stacy and her uncle...very unsettling. I thought the internal dialogues were also very well done and very realistic.

harbinger wrote:While the characters could definitely acted more intelligently, no one did anything exceedingly stupid (well letting go of the rope kind of qualifies) as is so common in this genre. The downward spiral was well conceived and imagined. I had some difficulty with the fact that they didn't at least try to attack the vine- would it burn, or smother itself out? I understand it was HUGE, but I would have wanted to learn it's strength.

I wondered about that as well but as far as burning goes I don't think it would have worked. If you've ever tried to burn green wood you'll recall that it's very difficult. The fact that the plant was green and apparently had a high moisture content (the acidic sap) leads me to believe that it probably wouldn't burn at all. Also the fact that the plant grew and spread so quickly leads me to believe that, even if they had succeeded in burning a portion of it, it would just re-grow.

Harbinger wrote:Which brings up the vine itself which is what I presume you want to discuss. I don't know guys- alien, demon, Mercurio? You tell me. I do believe it was malevolent, and that it enjoyed the terror and suffering before the feasting. I also am curious as to just how strong it actually was- which could help explain a lot of things- including the Mayans arrangement with it. The vine was capable of striking quickly, but was it strong enough to overpower a man if it wanted to. I think so.

I'm not sure what it was. I haven't really given it much serious thought. Off hand I guess I kind of thought of it as an evolutionary anomoly but alien works for me as well. I agree it was malevolent and intelligent.

I don't think it was strong enough to overpower a human as there were a few times where it was able to hinder their progress as they walked but couldn't actually stop them. I actually think that given the choice it probably wouldn't have minded if one of them escaped as it would, theoretically spread the plant into the jungle and provide the plant with a new source of food. I think the Mayans were effectively enforcing a quarantine. Although now that I think about it, Why would the plant alarm the mayans with the bird sounds when Jeff walked through them on the first night? Wouldn't it benefit the plant to spread throughout the jungle providing it with a whole new hunting ground and habitat?

The questions I wanted to discuss were how did the mayans originally quarantine the plant? How did they sow the earth with salt around the ruins without coming into contact with the plant? I speculate that they may have used slaves (who knows how long this plant has been there!) and then forced them onto the hill after the work was completed.

I also was thinking of what I might have done in the characters place. I was thinking that the only way to escape would be to fight back against the mayans. I would have tried experimenting with the way the plant spread and grew. If it spread through contact (spores maybe?) and was extremely virulent than I would have taken duct tape and attached a small vine to a rock or maybe the frisbee and tossed it into the jungle if the margins of the jungle were close enough to be reached. If repeated this may have given the Mayans something to worry about other than keeping the characters on that hill. Sure I may have jeopardized the continent of North and South America but if the Mayans contained it once maybe it could be done again after we had escaped.

The one thing that puzzled me, if my theory on how it spreads is correct, is why didn't the huge storm near the end, or any other huge windstorm for that matter, ever blow any plant material into the surrounding jungle?

Just my thoughts. Any insights would be appreciated. I'm glad you enjoyed the book though!

EDITThis is a book discussion.
If you see a post by me, assume spoilers.

Now that's clever;

Spoiler

I didn't think about throwing pieces of vine at the Mayans.
But I suspect the sight of a piece in your hand would have brought arrows. I'm like to think of the vine kind of like Tolkein's balrog someone dug too greedily and too deep and unleashed something from beneath the earth.

You've had me thinking about the book off and on all morning. I had to add to this post.

Brinn wrote:I wondered about that as well but as far as burning goes I don't think it would have worked. If you've ever tried to burn green wood you'll recall that it's very difficult. The fact that the plant was green and apparently had a high moisture content (the acidic sap) leads me to believe that it probably wouldn't burn at all.

Did the vine feel pain? You could make an argument for that based on the way it parted for the torch. It was obviously one large organism. I would really have liked to have seen its limits tested in some way, would like to have seen its root, so to speak. The acid could have been inflammable. I admit it's a stretch, but hey, I would have had to start trying things to probe for a weakness or at least a response. I definitely would have started cutting vines. It could have actually had discourse with them. Nobody asked it why it did what it did or yelled "fuck you" or tried to engage it in a conversation.

Brinn wrote:I don't think it was strong enough to overpower a human as there were a few times where it was able to hinder their progress as they walked but couldn't actually stop them.

You're probably right, but I don't feel that we saw its full strength. There were no animals near this thing. A function of learning to stay away? I think it had the ability to capture anything that got near it, but its boredom and wickedness enjoyed a game with humans.

Brinn wrote:The questions I wanted to discuss were how did the mayans originally quarantine the plant? How did they sow the earth with salt around the ruins without coming into contact with the plant?

Excellent topic. Is the plant truly quarantined? Or does it know that it must remain somewhat secret to survive? It stays off the salted clearing, but I was never truly satisfied with the description of the hill. The vine seemed to be capable of growth at will. Why did it not travel through the jungle in other directions? With the amount of rain in that area, it would have taken a hell of a lot of salt and man hours to keep the vine quarantined. The Mayans could very well have had a "live and let live" agreement with it. I didn't view it so much as a quarantine as I did "give unto the vine what is the vine's". But you could make an excellent argument for the quarantine, and I think you're right about the author's intent. I will agree that the humans are quarantined. It wasn't until Amy's ankle was touched that the Mayan's aim shifted from stay off the hill to you're stuck on the hill. And the one guy wanted to free the others, but they evidently don't want the outside world coming back because they released the others. Which brings up the point about spreading spores or viruses. I think the animals would have done it long ago if its intent was to spread, or if it couldn't overpower a large animal. I'm sure the vine is strictly a carnivore and feeds on whatever it can catch. While a mammal might have detected an enemy, I have a hard time attributing that much prescience to insects (no animals are found near it). The vine eats dead meat rapidly, but seems to savor live flesh when it finds a portal of entry. It would have been really interesting to see longer term effects on Eric. Surely, with modern weapons and a fairly close proximity to modern civilization, the Mayans could have imagined something to defeat the vine. Someone, an archaeologist or whatever would have been able to communicate with the Mayans and could have been warned. I recognize that it would be hard to believe and that the vine could have pulled a Warner Bros. "Singing Frog" act. Only one Mayan was proven to be willing to use force to try to keep people away, and I'm not completely convinced that they weren't doomed when the two bowmen showed up, contact with the vine or no. The Mayans could have done a better job concealing the location. As far as the conflict at the bottom of the hill, if it happened like that before, someone would have wimped out at some point, left, and returned with more people and guns. Then of course, there's an accurate map, which means someone has been there and returned. Which led me to believe they have an agreement of sorts with the vine. I'll admit the quarantine is more logical, and probably right, but I can't quite accept it because with the vines level of intellect, it could have already spread somehow.

****SPOILER********


































Yeah, I was thinking of that as well. I guess it would depend on the topography and layout of the hill and the surroundings. Could they position themselves in such a way that would allow them to lob "Plant bombs" into the surrounding jungle without exposing themselves to rifle or arrow fire. Maybe they could use the cover of darkness to do this.

My first thought was to blackmail the mayans with threats of lobbing plant bombs into the jungle but, with the communication issue, it would have definitely exposed the characters to immediate execution through arrow fire or a bullet through the head. My second thought was the one I elaborated in the post above, in the hopes that it could be done without exposing them to death through arrow fire.

I like the balrog idea as well. It would have been neat to explore the passages within the ruins and see where they lead.

Do you think the plant was intelligent? do you think it could communicate?

I added a large edit to my old post above. <edit>

Spoiler

Oh, yeah. calling it malevolent assumed intelligence. But I think it's highly intelligen

t.

Quickly went past the spoilers above, but wanted to say I just started reading this book. A couple kids are down inside now and it's totally gripping. Mainly posting to say that the author has one of the most amazing ways to craft his words as I've read in some time. He really a gift of writing. I want to finish up the novel before the movie cause I know the flick will change many things.

Cool stuff Kil. Make sure you come back after you've read it and join in our little discussion!

Someone gave me a big box of ARC's a while back, and this book was one of them. Sounds like it might be a good read, then?

I might have to dig it out of the box, which has been taking up space down in the basement.

(I've been skipping over any post that looks like it might be spoiley... )

Any updates from the people who were reading this? Any opinions?

I'm 200 pages in (thanks to your suggestion Brinn), and I gotta say I'm hooked. I'm gonna reserve my observations so far until I'm done, but I'm fascinated by the style so far.

OK, a couple of things....

Spoiler

The style was great. I kept waiting for there to be some significance to the POV only being from the four Americans, not Pablo or Matthias. Alas, there was no explanation.

I thought the lack of ideas like the ones Brinn and Harbinger bring up reinforce the idea that these are your typical boneheaded college kids who have never encountered any sort of adversity in life. Jeff is the only one who thinks even a little bit clearly about what's happening, the other three are simply vapid, self-absorbed narcissists.

I find that fascinating. There are no John McClanes in this story. The six of them are basically cattle, and we're as lost as they are. We, in the comfort of our homes, can easily say, "well, I'd have my cell phone" or, "I'd do 'X'", but we're not these pathetic knuckleheads. I mean, Amy stumbles onto the hill trying to properly frame a picture of her friends being threatened with a camera that takes lousy, out-of-focus pictures.

The ending was kick-ass. Nice and open. We don't know what the vine is, what the deal with the Mayans is, or anything else. There's absolutely no resolution, which is a refreshing change.

Glad you liked it Cail. I liked the ending as well and was wondering why they changed it for the movie. Especially given the fact that Smith was involved in writing the screenplay. After checking the reviews on RottenTomatoes I'm thinking I might actually enjoy the movie despite the change of ending.

I liked Jeff as a character. Actually they all rang pretty true to me. As you said, no heroes among them just a bunch of scared college kids in a very bad spot...although some were certainly more psychologically prepared for the ordeal and that gives the reader some hope for their prospects.

P.S.
Now that you've read one of my recommendations and enjoyed it could I impose upon you to read "Gates of Fire" by Steve Pressfield if you haven't already. That books kicks major ASS!!!

I've heard that the ending was changed for the film, and I have to wonder why. I'm not a huge gore fan, so I think I'll probably skip the film, but I am curious to see if it can match the tension that the book creates.

I will disagree with you though, I don't think there's a bit of hope at all, especially after the cell phone thing.

Yeah, yeah, "Gates of Fire". It's on the list.

I got "The Ruins" a couple of days ago, and am about halfway through it now. I really like this book. Very tense. I think Smith's writing style really adds to the tension. The writing itself feels claustrophobic.

I agree with a point made earlier by Cail, that's it's odd that only the four Americans are POV characters. I'm not sure why that would be - ok, maybe not the Greeks - as they don't speak English (though maybe that would add something too - their impressions of the Americans....) but the German guy at least seems like he'd be a good POV character.

I have read it,a great novel,funny he is not better known.