Kevin's Watch

In The One Tree, IIRC, it was implied that the Elohim were the basis of everything else which happened in the land. Similar to Amber and it's shadow worlds.

Also, I recall Chance?? being implied to be the creature who's shadow was Lord Foul.

Now in Fatal Revenant the Elohim seem to be just another group of magical creatures no more relevant than the Insequent. What is the true nature of the Elohim?

Also, if Lord Foul was Chance's shadow, who is Infelice's? I've tried to figure that out since TOT.

Mmm... Not quite, I think. The Elohim are Earthpower incarnate. They aren't the basis of everything that happened in the Land or its Earth. But what happens to the Earth happens to them. Sort of like they're, what?, little reflections of the Earth.

And the shadow in each of them is the same shadow, but we were not told what it was. Now we know. Heh.

Fist and Faith wrote:Mmm... Not quite, I think. The Elohim are Earthpower incarnate. They aren't the basis of everything that happened in the Land or its Earth.

Aren't they? I'm not so sure. For all of the humor that I intended with my earth's crust = worm poop in another thread, there is an element of truth to it. There is a pretty good case to be made that the Elohim are the either:

1. the sentience that remains of the consumed stars, just as the surface of the earth itself is a secretion of their physical remains.

or

2. a terrestrial manifestation of the stars which remain.

Although my interpretation was leaning toward the first until the most recent book, the second is given a little more weight at the present time based on Infelice's statement that the rousing Worm will consume every last Elohim.

Had to dig my copy of The One Tree out. Haven't read it in over 10 years so my memory was very foggy. First of all, I couldn't remember Daphin's name and assumed that Infelice was Daphin. I also misremembered Chant as Chance.

Unless we consider Chant and the Elohim to be unreliable narrator's Chant tells Covenant the following:

"These Elohim consider themselves to be the center of the Earth. According to him, everything important happens here. The rest of the world is like a shadow cast by Elemesnedene. Foul and the Sunbane are just symptoms. The real disease is something else - he didn't bother to say exactly what. Something about a darkness threathening the heart of the Earth. He wants my ring. He wants the wild magic. So he can attack the disease."

This passage is what led me to believe the rest of the earth was but a shadow of the Elohim.

I know he is partly an unreliable narrator as we know now he only wants the ring so Linden or TC can't use it to break the arch and not to fix the darkness disease.

One other question I have about the Elohim, and this is still assuming that Lord Foul is a shadow of Chant. Lord Foul can survive the distruction of the Arch. The Elohim cannot. So are we to assume that Lord Foul surpasses the Elohim in power and they could not deal with him even if they chose to?

But I guess that's the biggest question that has ratted around my brain since I first read this in the early 80s. Is Lord Foul a shadow of Chant or is Chant a shadow of Lord Foul?

I think the key word in your quote about the Elohim is the word "consider":

These Elohim consider themselves to be the center of the Earth. [emphasis added]

That doesn't necessarily mean that they are, just that they think they are.

According to him, everything important happens here. The rest of the world is like a shadow cast by Elemesnedene. Foul and the Sunbane are just symptoms. The real disease is something else - he didn't bother to say exactly what. Something about a darkness threathening the heart of the Earth. He wants my ring. He wants the wild magic. So he can attack the disease."

According to whom? Who is the "he" referenced in this passage? (Don't have the book handy to look it up.)

Sorry. This passage is TC relating to Linden what Chant has told him in private. The he/him is Chant.

Thanks, Endymion.

So then that just makes my point. The whole passage is about what the Elohim think their own importance in the world is.

Right and the Elohim aren't the most straight talkers, but most of what we know of the peoples in the Land are what we've been told by groups that have an agenda, like the Haruchai.

It seems to be SRD's style to have at least some truth in what a character tells us about themself.

Endymion9 wrote:It seems to be SRD's style to have at least some truth in what a character tells us about themself.

The key word in that statement being "some."

I agree, in the same way that *some* of what Linden learns from Roger masquerading as TC is true...

And regarding the Elohim, I'm copying something from the GI that I posted in that thread:

SRD wrote:Just because the Elohim *call* themselves "equal to all things" doesn't for a minute mean that they actually *are* "equal to all things".

That SRD quote from the GI doesn't surprise me in the least.

I should've kept the next line too:

SRD also wrote:Anytime a being or beings forget to be humble, it/they set it/themselves up to be humbled.

Oh, yes, that is very important. And interesting.

Relayer wrote:And regarding the Elohim, I'm copying something from the GI that I posted in that thread:

SRD wrote:Just because the Elohim *call* themselves "equal to all things" doesn't for a minute mean that they actually *are* "equal to all things".

Lately, I've begun to wonder if the Elohim were meant to be equal to everything, and given the ego to match. However, they were not "designed" with problems such as Lord Foul or Covenant or Linden in mind.

The Earth was not created with those three in mind. Lord Foul was thrown in afterwards. Just like Earthblood, the Elohim are rather impotent against him, because he isn't part of their creation, their world view.

So we have these guys, who were told they were the be all and the end all, and then the plans changed at the last minute. This would explain their ineffectual arrogance. Everything to do with Foul, Linden, and Covenant are beyond them. But they are too prideful to throw up their hands and quit, nor admit their inadequacy.

In [u]The One Tree[/u] was wrote:"You can fight the Despiser for us."

... "Sun-Sage," she said with a note like sorrow or regret in her voice, "this thing which you name Earthpower is our Würd." Like Daphin, she blurred the sound so that it could have been either Wyrd or Word, "You believe it to be a thing of suzerain might. In sooth, your belief is just. But have you come so far across the Earth without comprehending the helplessness of Power? We are what we are - and what we are not, we can never become. He whom you name the Despiser is a being of another kind entirely. We are effectless against him. That is our Würd.

I think that the elohim are kinda the, keepers of the land. They don't really care about the people within it or anything, they just wanna make sure everything isn't destroyed altogether. And there earthpower incarnet so they could be some manifestation of the land trying to protect itself.

Relayer wrote:I agree, in the same way that *some* of what Linden learns from Roger masquerading as TC is true...

And regarding the Elohim, I'm copying something from the GI that I posted in that thread:

SRD wrote:Just because the Elohim *call* themselves "equal to all things" doesn't for a minute mean that they actually *are* "equal to all things".

MsMary wrote:That SRD quote from the GI doesn't surprise me in the least.

I'm starting to think that Steven Reeder Donaldson IS an Elohim....

Why do they insist that they are "equal to all things" when they are evidently not?

Maybe it goes back to what was said in another thread. If the Elohim really assert themselves, it leads inevitably to a confrontation with the Grey Slayer. If they do away with him, it leads to the fall of the Arch. Therefore their game has to be that they stay at a distance from Lord Foul and yet they do what they can to influence events in the Land so that Foul does not gain control. But they cannot do too much themselves without risking the Arch.

Lately, I've begun to wonder if the Elohim were meant to be equal to everything, and given the ego to match. However, they were not "designed" with problems such as Lord Foul or Covenant or Linden in mind.

The haughtiness and self-pity in Infelice's expression confirms this. If all that happens in the Land is a reflection of what goes on in Elemesnedene, then the suffering of the Land is their responsibility. Yet they seem to posture themselves as victims. Maybe their only options are repulsive to them:
1. they can confront Foul, ending his evil but also ending the Arch and themselves.
2. They can allow Foul to do what he wants, but that also will break the Arch (so Foul hopes).
3. they can allow Foul to corrupt the Land, but try to manipulate things so his success is limited and cyclical. The Arch endures and the Elohim with it, though they and the Land suffer.

How will they rid themselves of the Shadow that lies on their hearts, thereby (presumably) ending the Land's suffering? Maybe they can't because Foul is a fact of their universe that isn't going away. Maybe that's why they're so uptight. They're supposed to be the power and righteousness and beauty of a wondrous universe, but there are things that they can't change, and they have not yet found the serenity to accept that. Maybe they can't.[/quote][/list]

I've been thinking that the theory that the Elohim are the spirits of the stars (a.k.a. the Creator's bright children) devoured by the Worm (a.k.a. the Arch of Time) is correct. I think the Elohim have gained temporary freedom while the Worm is asleep but will be absorbed back into its greater spirit once it's awake, and they don't want that to happen since they would lose their individuality again.

Nerdanel wrote:I've been thinking that the theory that the Elohim are the spirits of the stars (a.k.a. the Creator's bright children) devoured by the Worm (a.k.a. the Arch of Time) is correct. I think the Elohim have gained temporary freedom while the Worm is asleep but will be absorbed back into its greater spirit once it's awake, and they don't want that to happen since they would lose their individuality again.

I tend to agree.