Kevin's Watch

Looking at Covenant's Pocket Knife in the shop got me to thinking.

Jay wrote:Great for shaving the stubble off of your face or for creating abstract bargains that no one understands.

For the same reason, he began carrying around a sharp penknife. Whenever he felt his discipline faltering, felt threatened by memories or hopes or love, he took out the knife and tested its edge on his wrist.

Ok, so not really all that connected to his bargain, but could the leading impulse be the same? Regardless, shaving is a distinct part of his ritual. I think he shaves about seven times total in Lord Foul's Bane alone.

Without water or a mirror, he was perilously close to slitting his throat, and the dryness of his beard caused him pain as if he were using the knife to dredge his face into a new shape. But this risk, this pain, was part of him; there was nothing impossible about, it. If he cut himself, the dirt on his skin would make infection almost instantaneous. It calmed him like a demonstration of his identity.

Ok, so then there's his decision to give up shaving.

If he wanted proof of delusion, he would have to make it for himself.

He faced the prospect with trepidation. Anything he might do would take a long time to bear fruit. It would not become proof, brookless and unblinkable, until his delusion ended-until he had returned to his real life. In the meantime, it would do little to sustain him. But he had no choice; his need was urgent.

He had available three easy ways to create a definitive discontinuity: he could destroy his clothes, throw away his penknife-the only thing he had in his pockets-or grow a beard. Then, when he awakened, and found himself clothed, or still possessed of his penknife, or clean-shaven, he would have his proof. The obvious discrepancy of his healed forehead he did not trust. Past experience made him fear that he would be reinjured shortly before this delusion ended. But he could not bring himself to act on his first two alternatives. The thought of destroying his tough, familiar apparel made him feel too vulnerable, and the expedient of discarding his penknife was too uncertain. Cursing at the way his plight forced him to abandon all the
strict habits upon which his survival depended, he decided to give up shaving.

When at last he summoned the courage to leave his rooms and go into the Keep in search of breakfast, he brandished the stubble on his cheeks as if it were a declaration of defiance.

It would have been so much simpler if digital watches were around in '77. I wonder if there's enough EM interference in being summoned/returned to blank it out. Would a digital watch even work in The Land?

But his decision to measure himself by himself is an interesting one. It's a bargain of an entirely different sort. He gives up an important ritual in order to judge the passage of time as it effects him physically.

Oddball question: If Linden gave up shaving her pits (let's assume she does... and leave out other grooming habits), would that mean she stays until she finds Loric's Venus (though if anything can dull the Krill when it's active, it'd be a woman shaving with it) and spends a few minutes to put things in order?

Anyway... So Covenant later gives up his test, showing acceptance if not faith.

Covenant tugged at his beard, and watched hopelessly as Elena and Morin
followed Amok.
Then, as abruptly as gasping, he exclaimed, "Wait!" The fingers of his right hand tingled in his beard. "Hang on." The High Lord looked questioningly at him. He said, "I need a knife. And some water. And a mirror, if you've got one -- I don't want to cut my throat."

(He's always so worried about cutting his throat. Maybe I would be too if I used a straight razor.)

"I've made another deal-like the one I made with the Ranyhyn. I'm not trying to prove that the' Land isn't real anymore." In the back of his mind, he pleaded, Please don't ask me anything else. I don't want to lie to you.

She probed him with her eyes. "Do you believe, then -do you accept the Land?" In his relief, he almost sighed aloud. He could look at her squarely to answer this.

"No. But I'm willing to stop fighting about it. You've done so much for me."

What he doesn't want to lie about is that he's bargaining, like an alcoholic bargaining to God. 'I'll shave the beard; you solve this problem without making me feel like even more of an asshole.'

One problem of this, I'd guess, is that he's bargaining getting what he wants for something else that he wants (a return to the way he is). He's not really sacrificing. Just saying, 'Ok, I'll stop pushing if you just fix this.'

Of course, he just makes things worse for himself as well as making the whole beard thing useless.

Anyway, just my thoughts on it.

Syl wrote:What he doesn't want to lie about is that he's bargaining, like an alcoholic bargaining to God. 'I'll shave the beard; you solve this problem without making me feel like even more of an asshole.'

One problem of this, I'd guess, is that he's bargaining getting what he wants for something else that he wants (a return to the way he is). He's not really sacrificing. Just saying, 'Ok, I'll stop pushing if you just fix this.'

Well said. Guess it goes back to that "fundamental question of ethics" that old beggar was bugging TC about. To me, this is Covenant at his slimiest, setting up a secret bargain against his own daughter - even if she is just imaginary according to his Unbelief.

He's definitely trying to thrust the onus of responsibility onto someone else. But I would not go so far as to say it was "slimy".

Elena was a pretty potent character. She was the best person to defeat Lord Foul that was around. It's not like he was foisting responsiblility on someone who could not handle it, or who did not want it.

Furthermore, it was a responsibility he felt was foisted on him, which he did not want, and which he could not handle.

And he was sacrificing. He was sacrificing his position that the Land was a dream, in exchange for having that onus of responsibility changed. Do not underestimate the importance of that sacrifice. In LFB, and in early IW, we have come to understand how important his unbelief was to his surviving as a leper. He was essentially giving up taking care of his leprosy. And the first chapters of TPTP illustrate how much he paid for that decision back in the real world.

I wasn't a nice thing Covenant did here. But you should not say it was slimy. It wasn't a Milos Taverner.

In fact, you could argue that the Creator did worse to him than he did to Elena by this bargain.

Wayfriend wrote:In fact, you could argue that the Creator did worse to him than he did to Elena by this bargain.

Or, perhaps more understandably, that Foul did worse to him (SRD's said somewhere in the GI that it was Foul, not the Creator, who chose Covenant).

I always had problems with Covenant's bargains. A lot of the time, he seemed to be trying to bargain using things that are intangible and beyond him. Not a good position to take. He tried to bargain in order to give himself some degree of control, I think, but he had no real control even over the bargains themselves.

Cracked me up. LA not shaving her pits. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one out here wondering stuff like that. Covenant shaves his beard, but other than that, and a few mentions of baths, there aren't many hygiene issues brought up. Linden is in her 30's when she goes to the Land, correct? So wouldn't she have certain issues that a man wouldn't have? Not mentioned. Armpit hair and leg hair aren't what I mean. And how many of us could go that long without brushing our teeth? Aside from my children.... What about waxy ear buildup? Or changing underwear? I know a couple of mentions of washing clothes, but only in water, as they didn't have soap. I don't know about you, but using sand to wash my underwear would not be pleasant, at least not when you put them back on. Well I have satisfied my juvenile side for today. Tune in next week.....

Wayfriend wrote:He's definitely trying to thrust the onus of responsibility onto someone else. But I would not go so far as to say it was "slimy".

Elena was a pretty potent character. She was the best person to defeat Lord Foul that was around. It's not like he was foisting responsiblility on someone who could not handle it, or who did not want it.

Furthermore, it was a responsibility he felt was foisted on him, which he did not want, and which he could not handle.

And he was sacrificing. He was sacrificing his position that the Land was a dream, in exchange for having that onus of responsibility changed. Do not underestimate the importance of that sacrifice. In LFB, and in early IW, we have come to understand how important his unbelief was to his surviving as a leper. He was essentially giving up taking care of his leprosy. And the first chapters of TPTP illustrate how much he paid for that decision back in the real world.

I wasn't a nice thing Covenant did here. But you should not say it was slimy. It wasn't a Milos Taverner.

In fact, you could argue that the Creator did worse to him than he did to Elena by this bargain.

Syl wrote:
Oddball question: If Linden gave up shaving her pits (let's assume she does... and leave out other grooming habits), would that mean she stays until she finds Loric's Venus (though if anything can dull the Krill when it's active, it'd be a woman shaving with it) and spends a few minutes to put things in order?

This made me laugh.

I'm a second one that has some problems with Coevenant's bargain. My mind works in a different way than his, and I have a difficult time tyring to understand why he does what he does. When I first read the Chrons, my family commented that I was almost insufferable--it affected my mood so much!

wayfriend wrote:Elena was a pretty potent character. She was the best person to defeat Lord Foul that was around. It's not like he was foisting responsiblility on someone who could not handle it, or who did not want it.

I'm gonna disagree with this because of Elena's lack of character, obsession with power, and the fruit of her choices. Then, I know I still have soooo many "unresolved issues" with who that character (Elena) is, myself. *cough*

I'm also going to pick a bone with you because if there's one thing the books were "supposed" to teach us, wasn't it that character was so necessary for significant success in the Land, and that nobody was meant to be FORCED to "go it alone"?

Wyldewode wrote: I'm a second one that has some problems with Coevenant's bargain. My mind works in a different way than his, and I have a difficult time tyring to understand why he does what he does.

Amen! There were so many deep things that I think I got out of the story, but I am sure there is just TONS that I'm missing in terms of understanding about Covenant's bargaining.

If Digital Watches were around...it would be proof of the lands existence...the time on the watch and the days and months would go by at a faster rate as far as actual time spent in the land it would show a month or so went by ..compared to real time while your out cold. when you got back it might show a month went by if you were out for 3 days or whatever the time exchange rate is

Why do I have an inkling that a digital watch would have been broken in the fall (as he falls to the ground in front of the police car)?

Elaborating a bit on the digital watch statement....l am re-reading the First Chrons (then the rest) right now, and at least three times already (I'm on TPTP now), other people have undressed Covenant because he was unable to do it himself. I have sheepishly wondered why there was no awe over the elastic in his underwear, or the Spiderman screenprints, or Scooby Doo, or Fruit of the Loom, or whatever it was. Not to mention the technology of the zipper on his jeans, or the buttonholes on his shirt. I know, it's dumb to wonder these things, but I can't help it.

Remember that the denizens of the Land thought that TC was the return of Berek ...... and who would the first to have a go at what he was wearing??

e.g. "Hey catch the weird outfit on that stranger" [one intense blast of wild magic later] "err cool threads dude..Berek rocks!!"

Wyldewode wrote:I'm a second one that has some problems with Coevenant's bargain. My mind works in a different way than his, and I have a difficult time tyring to understand why he does what he does.

Well for a start, many of them don't appear to be "bargains" in the sense that we would generally use the word. A bargain takes two to agree to it and many of the "bargains" TC mentions are just his personal decisions / adopted viewpoints, it seems to me.

And thinking specifically about his secret bargain with Elena, I've always thought there was something much more sinister about it. Obviously Elena would like TC's aid in defending the Land and up to this point he has refused to assist - in fact, although his unbelief is waning, his viewpoint is still that it is unreal (he needs it to be unreal to maintain his ability to deal with his leprosy in the real world and hence his sanity). Now he "bargains" (ie decides independently really) that he will assist her - up to a point. That is he will assist her to reach Kevin's Seventh Ward so that she can use it and stand in his place as the hope of the Land.

But, this "bargain" arises just as he has witnessed her apocalyptic nature. He now sees the destructive force that she is capable of. Despite his affection for her, he is still really focussed on a return to his real world. He may no longer choose to positively disbelieve, but he hasn't changed his view that the Land is ultimately dangerous to him.

So he looking for a way out of not only the responsibility the Land lays at his door but also a way back to his real world. He knows from LFB that his return depends on the death of his summoner. It is a terrible bargain, but he decides to help Elena reach the Seventh Ward in the belief that she may destroy herself and return him to his real life....

Barnetto wrote:Well for a start, many of them don't appear to be "bargains" in the sense that we would generally use the word. A bargain takes two to agree to it and many of the "bargains" TC mentions are just his personal decisions / adopted viewpoints, it seems to me.

A person may make a bargain with himself. For example, a person might think to himself, if I lose ten pounds by the end of the month, I'll by myself a new video game.

As I see it, these kinds of self-bargains have to do with motivation, where you promise yourself a reward for modifying your behavior, or with guilt, where you convince yourself certain actions mitigate the guilt of other actions.

Covenant's TIW bargain seems to me to be of this second kind. He told himself that if he acted in certain ways (help Elena defeat Foul) it would mitigate the guilt of other actions (not attempting to defeat Foul himself).

In this light, it seems to me that this bargain means that Covenant was beginning to feel bad about not trying to be the Land's savior, although he still felt that it would be disasterous to try to. For if he didn't feel bad about not making the attempt (which was more or less his position early in LFB) there would be no need for any bargains.

Prothall might say that guilt, like bitterness, is a sign of concern.

Rocksister wrote:Elaborating a bit on the digital watch statement....l am re-reading the First Chrons (then the rest) right now, and at least three times already (I'm on TPTP now), other people have undressed Covenant because he was unable to do it himself. I have sheepishly wondered why there was no awe over the elastic in his underwear, or the Spiderman screenprints, or Scooby Doo, or Fruit of the Loom, or whatever it was. Not to mention the technology of the zipper on his jeans, or the buttonholes on his shirt. I know, it's dumb to wonder these things, but I can't help it.

...not dumb...just gay...for most guys

wayfriend wrote:A person may make a bargain with himself. For example, a person might think to himself, if I lose ten pounds by the end of the month, I'll by myself a new video game.

Agreed, but I don't think TC's "bargains" even fall into this category of if I do A then I will do/get B. SD strains to make them seem this way but taking his secret bargain relating to Elena as an example, what he is really saying is that "I am going to give up my passivity and strive to help Elena reach the Seventh Ward because that may mean that she takes on the role of the Land's saviour". It's an example of if I do A then hopefully someone else will do B. Or I will do A because then someone else will do B. Not if I do A then I will do/get B.

At the end of TIW it is presented as "I promised myself that I would do everything I could to help you find this Ward. And in return I promised myself that I would do everything I could to make you take my responsibility." But that is rather forced to me.

It's all semantics at the end of the day though

wayfriend wrote:As I see it, these kinds of self-bargains have to do with... guilt, where you convince yourself certain actions mitigate the guilt of other actions.

Covenant's TIW bargain seems to me to be of this second kind. He told himself that if he acted in certain ways (help Elena defeat Foul) it would mitigate the guilt of other actions (not attempting to defeat Foul himself).

In this light, it seems to me that this bargain means that Covenant was beginning to feel bad about not trying to be the Land's savior, although he still felt that it would be disasterous to try to. For if he didn't feel bad about not making the attempt (which was more or less his position early in LFB) there would be no need for any bargains.

Excellent - I think this is what I was missing - from my perspective, they aren't "bargains" at all - but from TC's perspective he is seeking to make his actions/decisions into something more than they actually are - so the use of the term "bargain" reveals more about TC (even though using the term gets confusing, especially in LFB). Especially agree with the guilt analysis as regards the Elena bargain.

Barnetto wrote:Agreed, but I don't think TC's "bargains" even fall into this category of if I do A then I will do/get B.

Well, neither do I, as I subsequently explained.

Barnetto wrote:It's an example of if I do A then hopefully someone else will do B. Or I will do A because then someone else will do B.

I agree that people might do things because it causes things they dislike to not happen, or in general helps them avoid something they don't like.

However, I discount that in this situation, as that's not really something anyone would call a "bargain", even to oneself. Covenant freely called his decision a bargain in his own terms. To me, that implies that in some way Covenant believed he was making a trade with himself, something for something else.

Covenant is travelling on a character arc from avoidance to acceptance, and it seems to fit that a bargain which signifies a tiny smidge of acceptance at this time is appropriate. And Covenant may not even be aware of the significance of such a bargain in these terms - his acceptance may be sneaking up on him.

At the end of LFB, Covenant returned from the Land, and his first and foremost thought was that he had saved the Quest. It was important to him that he saved it. Which means that the Land was becoming important to him. He was beginning to accept responsibility for it.