WARNING: If you haven't read through to the complete end of DT-7 you may find spoilers here...
Okay, so I know that King's ending to the series is notorious for being either loved or hated. I've been reading the DT series agin (for about the 5th time) and recently saw in the Gradual Interview where Donaldson said he'd rather be dead than feel the way he did after the ending...
I was talking to my wife recently about the ending (what happens after Roland enters the DT..) and she said something I thought a lot about.
The end, she didn't seem to think much of it one way or the other, but then again she hasn't read any of the books. But she did comment on King's in-character comments about people being greedy in nature and that they should appreciate the journey more than the ending.
In her mind those comments were ridiculous and horribly dismissive of people who want great closure to a long series. She's read many other King books as have I, and including comments in another thread here in the way of King never giving us a "good, clear ending" to any of his works. As if he might later be struck by his muse to continue the story so "the door" must be left cracked open a little bit" so to speak. On the other hand his comments in DT-7 may be a smoke screen to make up for what he felt wasn't truly what the series deserved...
Maybe...maybe not.
I for one, liked the ending to the series and came away with some hope for Roland. I wouldn't say I was angered or detested it in anyway...honestly I just felt horrible for Roland and hopeful that he will eventually overcome.
I really wondered, from those of you who have read to the complete end, just why it was you hated the ending....
Opinions on the Dark Tower ending..
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Luke The Unbeliever
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Opinions on the Dark Tower ending..
Brian: Who cured you?
Ex-Leper: Jesus did, sir. I was hopping along, minding my own business, all of a sudden, up he comes, cures me! One minute I'm a leper with a trade, next minute my livelihood's gone. Not so much as a by-your-leave! "You're cured, mate." Bloody do-gooder.
Brian: Well, why don't you go and tell him you want to be a leper again?
Ex-Leper: Uh, I could do that sir, yeah. Yeah, I could do that I suppose. What I was thinking was I was going to ask him if he could make me a bit lame in one leg during the middle of the week. You know, something beggable, but not leprosy, which is a pain in the @$$ to be blunt and excuse my French, sir.
Ex-Leper: Jesus did, sir. I was hopping along, minding my own business, all of a sudden, up he comes, cures me! One minute I'm a leper with a trade, next minute my livelihood's gone. Not so much as a by-your-leave! "You're cured, mate." Bloody do-gooder.
Brian: Well, why don't you go and tell him you want to be a leper again?
Ex-Leper: Uh, I could do that sir, yeah. Yeah, I could do that I suppose. What I was thinking was I was going to ask him if he could make me a bit lame in one leg during the middle of the week. You know, something beggable, but not leprosy, which is a pain in the @$$ to be blunt and excuse my French, sir.
First thing, I have to wonder how the series would have turned out had King not gotten run over by a van in real life.
Secondly, I hated his insertion into the story.
Thirdly, I hated the idea of everyone living happily ever after.
Fourthly, given the choices King made in the last 3 books, I don't see any other way of them ending (as far as Roland's fate was concerned). As much as I disliked many elements in the last 3 books, I thought Roland's fate was very satisfying.
Secondly, I hated his insertion into the story.
Thirdly, I hated the idea of everyone living happily ever after.
Fourthly, given the choices King made in the last 3 books, I don't see any other way of them ending (as far as Roland's fate was concerned). As much as I disliked many elements in the last 3 books, I thought Roland's fate was very satisfying.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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Mortice Root
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Cail wrote
I agree that the happy endings for the questors seemed lame. I mean, I was crying real tears when Eddie died, and to have that reversal just seemed to cheapen it.
The actual ending though - I kinda liked it. Certainly it was different that what I had expected. I suspect that for a lot of people that hated it, part of the reason is that you end up feeling so damn bad for Roland, and there isn't a sense of closure.
Good point. I think this is illustrative of how SRDs writing process differs from SKs. From what I understand, SK doesn't have outlines or even sometimes endings in mind when he starts. He just starts writing, trusting his intuition to get him to a satisfying end. So when something major happens (the van accident) it can seriously alter a work in unforseen ways. I also didn't really like his self-insertion, but can understand why he did it. I think his lack of planning probably hurt DT some.... (the deux ex of the guy from Insomnia etc..). What's really more surprising to me is that SKs style works more often than not.First thing, I have to wonder how the series would have turned out had King not gotten run over by a van in real life.
I agree that the happy endings for the questors seemed lame. I mean, I was crying real tears when Eddie died, and to have that reversal just seemed to cheapen it.
The actual ending though - I kinda liked it. Certainly it was different that what I had expected. I suspect that for a lot of people that hated it, part of the reason is that you end up feeling so damn bad for Roland, and there isn't a sense of closure.
"The plural of antecdotes is not evidence."
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Driving down the razor's edge between the past and the future
Turn up the music and smile
Get carried away on the songs and stories of vanished times
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Driving down the razor's edge between the past and the future
Turn up the music and smile
Get carried away on the songs and stories of vanished times
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Cameraman Jenn
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I was pissed about Eddie and I agree it cheapened it for me. I didn't like King putting himself in the story, it seemed simply lame and too freaking convenient. I didn't understand if it was intended that this timeline was past in which case Roland has no chance because the one time that he could have succeeded was gone or whether or not he actually travelled back in time. I dunno. There was alot about it that left me feeling meh about King. There were also some great aspects to it that I loved. 
Now if I could just find a way to wear live bees as jewelry all the time.....
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Luke The Unbeliever
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Yeah, Eddie's death hit me hard...I still get upset during that part everytime I read it.
I guess I always looked at the "happily ever after" meeting as" meh, okay whatever...because to me, it wasn't the "real" Eddie or "real" Jake...I more or less shrugged it off...so I can agree with most people as to the crap factor on that part of the ending.
I guess I always looked at the "happily ever after" meeting as" meh, okay whatever...because to me, it wasn't the "real" Eddie or "real" Jake...I more or less shrugged it off...so I can agree with most people as to the crap factor on that part of the ending.
Brian: Who cured you?
Ex-Leper: Jesus did, sir. I was hopping along, minding my own business, all of a sudden, up he comes, cures me! One minute I'm a leper with a trade, next minute my livelihood's gone. Not so much as a by-your-leave! "You're cured, mate." Bloody do-gooder.
Brian: Well, why don't you go and tell him you want to be a leper again?
Ex-Leper: Uh, I could do that sir, yeah. Yeah, I could do that I suppose. What I was thinking was I was going to ask him if he could make me a bit lame in one leg during the middle of the week. You know, something beggable, but not leprosy, which is a pain in the @$$ to be blunt and excuse my French, sir.
Ex-Leper: Jesus did, sir. I was hopping along, minding my own business, all of a sudden, up he comes, cures me! One minute I'm a leper with a trade, next minute my livelihood's gone. Not so much as a by-your-leave! "You're cured, mate." Bloody do-gooder.
Brian: Well, why don't you go and tell him you want to be a leper again?
Ex-Leper: Uh, I could do that sir, yeah. Yeah, I could do that I suppose. What I was thinking was I was going to ask him if he could make me a bit lame in one leg during the middle of the week. You know, something beggable, but not leprosy, which is a pain in the @$$ to be blunt and excuse my French, sir.
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Avatar
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Yeah, I think Cail said it all for me. That's mostly how I felt...Cail wrote:First thing, I have to wonder how the series would have turned out had King not gotten run over by a van in real life.
Secondly, I hated his insertion into the story.
Thirdly, I hated the idea of everyone living happily ever after.
Fourthly, given the choices King made in the last 3 books, I don't see any other way of them ending (as far as Roland's fate was concerned). As much as I disliked many elements in the last 3 books, I thought Roland's fate was very satisfying.
I thought Eddie et al "coming back" did diminish the worth of the deaths in the first place. King wimped out there or something.
But the ending was ok. What I hated the most was that we'll never see the slightly different repeat. *sigh*
--A
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Luke The Unbeliever
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I suppose I can see your point there...I really ended up liking Eddie and Jake SOOOOO much that I was entirely heartbroken over their deaths. I guess in the way that I really enjoyed the journey so much I keep re-reading DT...maybe I've got some crazy idea that everything is gonna end up differently the next time I read it.wayfriend wrote:Heck, the way it ended, the worth of everything in the whole entire story was diminished. To zero. It was a do-over!Avatar wrote:I thought Eddie et al "coming back" did diminish the worth of the deaths in the first place. King wimped out there or something.
How sick is that? LOL!
Brian: Who cured you?
Ex-Leper: Jesus did, sir. I was hopping along, minding my own business, all of a sudden, up he comes, cures me! One minute I'm a leper with a trade, next minute my livelihood's gone. Not so much as a by-your-leave! "You're cured, mate." Bloody do-gooder.
Brian: Well, why don't you go and tell him you want to be a leper again?
Ex-Leper: Uh, I could do that sir, yeah. Yeah, I could do that I suppose. What I was thinking was I was going to ask him if he could make me a bit lame in one leg during the middle of the week. You know, something beggable, but not leprosy, which is a pain in the @$$ to be blunt and excuse my French, sir.
Ex-Leper: Jesus did, sir. I was hopping along, minding my own business, all of a sudden, up he comes, cures me! One minute I'm a leper with a trade, next minute my livelihood's gone. Not so much as a by-your-leave! "You're cured, mate." Bloody do-gooder.
Brian: Well, why don't you go and tell him you want to be a leper again?
Ex-Leper: Uh, I could do that sir, yeah. Yeah, I could do that I suppose. What I was thinking was I was going to ask him if he could make me a bit lame in one leg during the middle of the week. You know, something beggable, but not leprosy, which is a pain in the @$$ to be blunt and excuse my French, sir.
I don't understand how the ending can diminish an entire story. The ending was perfect, it couldn't have gone any other way and made sense.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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Luke The Unbeliever
- <i>Elohim</i>
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Yeah, I agree with that.Cail wrote:I don't understand how the ending can diminish an entire story. The ending was perfect, it couldn't have gone any other way and made sense.
I mean, there are some details about the ending that I didn't like but on the whole I loved it. It just seems that a lot of people who've read DT really got "rubbed the wrong way" by how King chose to end the story. I can't help but ask people why...I was beginning to wonder if I missed something.
Brian: Who cured you?
Ex-Leper: Jesus did, sir. I was hopping along, minding my own business, all of a sudden, up he comes, cures me! One minute I'm a leper with a trade, next minute my livelihood's gone. Not so much as a by-your-leave! "You're cured, mate." Bloody do-gooder.
Brian: Well, why don't you go and tell him you want to be a leper again?
Ex-Leper: Uh, I could do that sir, yeah. Yeah, I could do that I suppose. What I was thinking was I was going to ask him if he could make me a bit lame in one leg during the middle of the week. You know, something beggable, but not leprosy, which is a pain in the @$$ to be blunt and excuse my French, sir.
Ex-Leper: Jesus did, sir. I was hopping along, minding my own business, all of a sudden, up he comes, cures me! One minute I'm a leper with a trade, next minute my livelihood's gone. Not so much as a by-your-leave! "You're cured, mate." Bloody do-gooder.
Brian: Well, why don't you go and tell him you want to be a leper again?
Ex-Leper: Uh, I could do that sir, yeah. Yeah, I could do that I suppose. What I was thinking was I was going to ask him if he could make me a bit lame in one leg during the middle of the week. You know, something beggable, but not leprosy, which is a pain in the @$$ to be blunt and excuse my French, sir.
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wayfriend
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Well, you can claim a story is a journey, not a destination.
But I didn't like the ending because it made the sacrifices and the choices of the characters meaningless. And because the Dark Tower was a MacGuffin.
I'm happy for SK giving us The Drawing of the Three, and Wizard and Glass. But he could have ditched the rest.
BTW, I think SK ran out of dirt road long before that van. As evidence, I give you the ending of Wizard and Glass.
But I didn't like the ending because it made the sacrifices and the choices of the characters meaningless. And because the Dark Tower was a MacGuffin.
I'm happy for SK giving us The Drawing of the Three, and Wizard and Glass. But he could have ditched the rest.
BTW, I think SK ran out of dirt road long before that van. As evidence, I give you the ending of Wizard and Glass.
.
Meh, I disagree. I didn't find the sacrifices meaningless one bit, and while you could argue that the Tower itself was a MacGuffin, most stories have them, and the Tower was certainly effectively used.
What was the problem with the ending of W&G?
What was the problem with the ending of W&G?
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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wayfriend
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Dragging in the Wizard of Oz.Cail wrote:What was the problem with the ending of W&G?
It didn't strike me as appalling the first time I read it, just bizarre, and mysterious: King still had my trust. But, looking back, it seems to be possible proof that King was thinking about this "book universe" thing as early as DT4, which was pre-van. (Wasn't it?) With hindsight, I now think the Oz/Flag thing was pretty bad.
.
I can't remember if that was pre-van or not. I dunno, that didn't really bother me.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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duchess of malfi
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I do not see how the ending with Roland could have been anything else? After all, ka is a wheel. 
I was not bothered by the ending of WAG, either, and I think that one was pre-van (in fact, I think it was the last book in that series that was pre-van). However, I think including himself in the series was...a bad decision. It served to lessen the series rather then enrich it (at least to me). 
After all, ka is a wheel. I was not bothered by the ending of WAG, either, and I think that one was pre-van (in fact, I think it was the last book in that series that was pre-van). However, I think including himself in the series was...a bad decision.
It served to lessen the series rather then enrich it (at least to me). Love as thou wilt.
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Menolly
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In the Fresh Journey thread, as I got towards the end, people started confusing me with what they liked and what they hated. I think some thought the ending with Susannah, Eddie and Jake came at the end, and when they said they hated the ending, they were only referring to that, not the ending with Roland.
Yes, I know I got confused with that. To be clear, I liked the ending with Roland, hated the ending with Eddie and the rest.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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Carson Napier
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The Roland ending worked for me, he would have to do it all again, but this time, he had the Horn of Elde on his belt when he started out, so there is hope for him, and his entire quest could be radically different next time around.
The susanah, eddie and jake as his kid brother ending was bad, really bad IMO...I would've prefered not hearing anything of susan after she went through the door, it would've been more powerful when the Gunslinger was reciting their names as he approached the Tower, his fallen Ka-Tet, his family lost in his quest.
I'm still glad that I ploughed through the whole series though! Roland Deschain has to be one of the greatest characters ever concieved IMO, it was a pleasure to hear him brought to life by Frank Muller & George Guidall in the respective audiobooks I listened to.
Oh, and 'Oy' FTW!
CN
The susanah, eddie and jake as his kid brother ending was bad, really bad IMO...I would've prefered not hearing anything of susan after she went through the door, it would've been more powerful when the Gunslinger was reciting their names as he approached the Tower, his fallen Ka-Tet, his family lost in his quest.
I'm still glad that I ploughed through the whole series though! Roland Deschain has to be one of the greatest characters ever concieved IMO, it was a pleasure to hear him brought to life by Frank Muller & George Guidall in the respective audiobooks I listened to.
Oh, and 'Oy' FTW!
CN
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Agreed and agreed...One of the things I always liked about King was that, unlike some others I could mention, he was never afraid to kill off his characters. But he lost his nerve on the Jake/Eddie/Susannah one.Carson Napier wrote:The susanah, eddie and jake as his kid brother ending was bad, really bad IMO...I would've prefered not hearing anything of susan after she went through the door, it would've been more powerful when the Gunslinger was reciting their names as he approached the Tower, his fallen Ka-Tet, his family lost in his quest.
--A
The insertion of himself did appear to be a little bit of self therapy to meAvatar wrote:Yeah, I think Cail said it all for me. That's mostly how I felt...Cail wrote:First thing, I have to wonder how the series would have turned out had King not gotten run over by a van in real life.
Secondly, I hated his insertion into the story.
Thirdly, I hated the idea of everyone living happily ever after.
Fourthly, given the choices King made in the last 3 books, I don't see any other way of them ending (as far as Roland's fate was concerned). As much as I disliked many elements in the last 3 books, I thought Roland's fate was very satisfying.
I thought Eddie et al "coming back" did diminish the worth of the deaths in the first place. King wimped out there or something.
But the ending was ok. What I hated the most was that we'll never see the slightly different repeat. *sigh*
--A
I think the Jake / Eddie Detta incarnation was technically correct (ie many other worlds), but, sadly, had a sense of happy ever after...
I could see the eternally difficult Linden saying "but its not that simple..." !!
[whoops mixing characters here...!)Shihad
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