Kevin's Watch

The Illearth War. Page 231, last paragraph:
"Trothgard had borne the name Kurash Plenethor, Stricken Stone, from the last years of Kevin Landwaster until it was RECHRISTENED when the new Lords swore their oath of service after the Desecration."

I would imagine that what was meant was "renamed". I find the use of the term "rechistened" alludes to the possibility that Trothgard originally was "Christened:? This is a surprising reference to Christianity, which, as far as I have read, was not mentioned or recognized in the Land.[/b]

wow. Good catch. I never though tof that. Probably a bad choice of words is all. and SRD is a master of words.

One of the meanings of christen is "to name and dedicate", as in to christen a ship.

True, it's a word that no one in the Land would use, as it's a word that originated in christianity, although it has come to have a meaning outside of religion.

On the other hand, the word "christ" comes from a greek word for "anoint". So you can make a claim that Donaldson needed that word more than God did.

Christianity predates modern English. It's bound to have an affect. Vulcanize comes from the god Vulcan, as does volcano. Mercury, the element or the root of 'mercurial.' Should SRD avoid those words since the Greek pantheon never made an appearance?

And there's many common words used that differ from their historical roots. For instance, the word 'upset' wasn't used as a noun until after a long-odds horse beat the current favorite (Man o' War). The horse's name was Upset.

There's even the modern usage of the word 'nice.' It wasn't until around the last half of the century that the word became synonymous with 'good.' The common usage used to be along the lines of 'exact' and 'precise.'

*shrug*

On the other hand, the word "christ" comes from a greek word for "anoint". So you can make a claim that Donaldson needed that word more than God did.

lol.

Syl wrote:Christianity predates modern English. It's bound to have an affect. Vulcanize comes from the god Vulcan, as does volcano. Mercury, the element or the root of 'mercurial.' Should SRD avoid those words since the Greek pantheon never made an appearance?

And there's many common words used that differ from their historical roots. For instance, the word 'upset' wasn't used as a noun until after a long-odds horse beat the current favorite (Man o' War). The horse's name was Upset.

There's even the modern usage of the word 'nice.' It wasn't until around the last half of the century that the word became synonymous with 'good.' The common usage used to be along the lines of 'exact' and 'precise.'

*shrug*

I tend to agree. I mean, words derived from religion, myth and lore have all been introduced into modern English. Even if they are derived from ancient myth and lore, and a lot of religion, they are still words with different meanings in modern English in their own right. A lot of the words in dialogue wouldn't be usable if it was the case of creating/using an older, more genuine version of English.

Syl wrote:
There's even the modern usage of the word 'nice.' It wasn't until around the last half of the century that the word became synonymous with 'good.' The common usage used to be along the lines of 'exact' and 'precise.'

*shrug*

Oh, even better than that... Just check the incredible journey of that tiny little word nice[/]...

www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=nic ... hmode=none

Syl wrote:Christianity predates modern English. It's bound to have an affect. Vulcanize comes from the god Vulcan, as does volcano. Mercury, the element or the root of 'mercurial.' Should SRD avoid those words since the Greek pantheon never made an appearance?

And there's many common words used that differ from their historical roots. For instance, the word 'upset' wasn't used as a noun until after a long-odds horse beat the current favorite (Man o' War). The horse's name was Upset.

There's even the modern usage of the word 'nice.' It wasn't until around the last half of the century that the word became synonymous with 'good.' The common usage used to be along the lines of 'exact' and 'precise.'

*shrug*

well, if TC went back to his world, wouldnt it be jarring to have the lady at the Bell Telephone counter exclaim: Melnkurion Abatha!! I've torn a nail!

(I assume, I havent looked extensively) but I beleive christen comes from Christ and is specifically related to Christianity; Christ was never in the land, at least, not using that name. Neither was vulcan, or any Pantheon god. if SRD were being draconian, those words you mention would never have arisen in the Land and therefore wouldnt exist, except as an amazing coincidence. So yes, I agree, they should be avoided in a perfect scenario. I admit, that would be pretty hard because we rarely think of the etymology of words we use, and it would be doubly hard for a writer writing in such a world to completely control that.

However, we do have suspension of disbelief -- they are speaking english in a world where they shouldn't have english at all! Its a whole different world.

edit: One could argue that ALL of modern english relies on events that happened in the distant past, and that ALL english words would be innapropriate for the Land Denizens to use.

I guess that point could digress into a discussion of whether Land denizens speaking english is an indication that the Land is a figment or otherwise related to our world, rather than a separate world with separate origins.


unless perhaps another visitor brought those words with him/her?

All the Covenant books are woven around religious mythology.

the world is purposely created

ultimate good & ultimate evil exists

original sin brought on by the actions of evil

a savior is prophesized

a savior arrives and is misunderstood.

Those who do not follow the good magic are subhuman

All can be redeemed by following the good magic

iQuestor wrote:So yes, I agree, they should be avoided in a perfect scenario. I admit, that would be pretty hard because we rarely think of the etymology of words we use, and it would be doubly hard for a writer writing in such a world to completely control that.

All words have an etymology, and all etymologies incorporate historical and cultural underpinnings. So it's impossible to avoid.

So I'm not disturbed by "christen" or "volcano" or even "Elohim" in Donaldson's writings. Or idioms either.

What would be jarring and offputting would be for Mhoram saying, "Chill out, dog. You're freaky bling will own Foul, word."

The difference, of course, is that we're more conscious of the cultural and historical underpinnings of modern words than we are of long established ones.

As long as it doesn't pull you out of the story, it's okay. I suppose there'll always be cases that affect some poeple... such as johanngrivet ... everyone has different susceptibilities.

iQuestor wrote:(I assume, I havent looked extensively) but I beleive christen comes from Christ and is specifically related to Christianity;

Christen and chrism have the same root. Chrism is the oil used to anoint one during a christening. 'Christ' means "anointed one".

Religion and spirituality are used throughout the first trilogy. I am always struck by TC's attendance at the tent revival in the 'real world'. The image of a modern leper seeking a public Christian absolution and being essentially denied it is powerful for me... and I could be wrong on this one, but doesn't at least one of the FC books take place over Easter weekend?

However, after saying all that, I state my opinion that the use of the word 'rechristened' was perhaps purposely chosen both for its denotation of 're-naming or re-invocation' as well as its connotations of religious or spiritual rebirth. It is SRDs talent for simultaneous exposition and word-painting that makes him The Man.

dw

wayfriend wrote:

iQuestor wrote:So yes, I agree, they should be avoided in a perfect scenario. I admit, that would be pretty hard because we rarely think of the etymology of words we use, and it would be doubly hard for a writer writing in such a world to completely control that.

All words have an etymology, and all etymologies incorporate historical and cultural underpinnings. So it's impossible to avoid.

So I'm not disturbed by "christen" or "volcano" or even "Elohim" in Donaldson's writings. Or idioms either.

What would be jarring and offputting would be for Mhoram saying, "Chill out, dog. You're freaky bling will own Foul, word."

The difference, of course, is that we're more conscious of the cultural and historical underpinnings of modern words than we are of long established ones.

As long as it doesn't pull you out of the story, it's okay. I suppose there'll always be cases that affect some poeple... such as johanngrivet ... everyone has different susceptibilities.

It didnt disturb me or jar me, Indeed, I didnt even notice the word Christen it till it was brought up on this thread; now that I am aware, though, I am just waxing on what would be proper, and what would not be.

I didn't pay any special notice to it either. As has been said, there are so many words which have olden etymologies. And we haven't even mentioned words from other languages, like samadhi, moksha, and turiya, all of which are Hindu/Sanskrit references to states of enlightenment. I'd guess that some of the names of the Ramen have meaning in their original language (Marathi?) but being English speakers we have no context for them. Are there any Indians on the Watch that can shed light on those? Of course, SRD might have simply liked the sound of the words, rather than any possible meaning. (We know this isn't the case w/ the Ravers' names, as he's said that they see themselves as being enlightenment).

And assuredly some of the names he uses for locations, other characters, etc, have meaning in other languages/contexts...

I just had to quote this again:

"Chill out, dog. You're freaky bling will own Foul, word."

wayfriend wrote:

iQuestor wrote:
What would be jarring and offputting would be for Mhoram saying, "Chill out, dog. You're freaky bling will own Foul, word."

Rolling in the floor. That is the funniest thing I have seen in ages. As far as the Land's denizens speaking English, you could have similar discussions for citizens of ANY fictional place, like R. A. Salvatore's Menzobarranzan, or any science fiction book where we are taken to other galaxies. Did anyone else think it was strange that EVERY planet the USS Enterprise visited spoke perfect English? And they used words that derived from our history, which is 100% of our words! It wasn't until The Next Generation that universal language translators came into use. Remember the episode of the original ST series where they visited a planet where Apollo ruled? Apollo is an ancient Greek god, but he didn't speak Greek, he spoke ENGLISH. IF a guy on Mars writes a book, what language does he write it in? Martianese, of course. And if Tolkein had written his books in Sindarian Elvish, who could read them? You have to write for the audience. I know, I'm reaching way beyond the intention of this discussion, but it made me think, so I rattled on. Interesting question, very very thought-provoking.

wayfriend wrote: What would be jarring and offputting would be for Mhoram saying, "Chill out, dog. You're freaky bling will own Foul, word."

The problem with that sentence being inappropriate apostrophe usage.

Rocksister wrote:Did anyone else think it was strange that EVERY planet the USS Enterprise visited spoke perfect English? And they used words that derived from our history, which is 100% of our words! It wasn't until The Next Generation that universal language translators came into use. Remember the episode of the original ST series where they visited a planet where Apollo ruled? Apollo is an ancient Greek god, but he didn't speak Greek, he spoke ENGLISH.

Umm, they had a universal translator in the original series of Star Trek. They mentioned it obliquely a couple of times, but also showed it in one episode. Long tubey thing. Built into the computers.

"Chill out, dog. You're freaky bling will own Foul, word."

Yeah, I think I noticed that too, but after wading through all the other borrowed words (notably the Sanskrit) I hardly blinked.

"Ramen". There's one whose meaning has changed in the last 20 years!

deer of the dawn wrote:"Ramen". There's one whose meaning has changed in the last 20 years!

In [u]The Illstomach War[/u] was wrote:Covenant brandished the package of dried noodles like a threat. "You can't defeat Foul with pasta and some spice!" he spat.

"No," replied Mhoram quietly. "But hope lies in serving good food."

"That's nothing but cheap groceries."

"Groceries? I do not know this word."

"It's an economical way of purchasing things to eat and to clean with, and maybe get yourself a candybar at the checkout. As if through getting more with less, you can live better."

Probing again, Mhoram said, "Then do you truly believe that you are what you eat?"

... we pick up the story 7 years later ...

Quaan: "High Lord, do you therefore trust the Unbeliever?"

Mhoram: "I trust that indigestion is not the sum of life."

Maybe so, Guilfoyle, but they didn't take that down to the planets they visited. I am a Trek Geek, so I KNOW. But since it's fiction, and science fiction at that, maybe the away teams injected themselves with fluid running through the tubes of the translator before they went down. Ha! Enough of that junk. Sorry.