Another Waco?

[jwaneeta]

Link

Authorities Preparing 'For the Worst' As Conflict Escalates at Texas Polygamist Compound


Officers stand at the entrance to the El Dorado Civic Center Friday, April 4, 2008, in El Dorado, Texas, after children were removed in the buses in the background from a nearby polygamist retreat. Child welfare officials and state troopers removed a busload of children from the secretive West Texas religious retreat built by polygamist leader Warren Jeffs following a complaint to state authorities. (AP Photo/Harry Cabluck)
04-05-2008 11:51 PM
By MICHELLE ROBERTS, Associated Press Writer

ELDORADO, Texas (Associated Press) -- Sect leaders at a polygamist compound in West Texas refused Saturday to let authorities search a temple for a teenage girl whose report of abuse led to the raid, and authorities said they were preparing "for the worst."

If no agreement is reached with sect leaders, authorities will forcibly remove the sect's followers "as peaceably as possible," Allison Palmer, a prosecutor in Tom Green County, told the San Angelo Standard-Times.

[Avatar]

Very interesting. Keep us updated Jwaneeta. I wonder if this sort of thing is going to become more common?

And I wonder where the right lies...if the girl was being abused, that seems a fair justification for going in wouldn't you all say?

--A

[Cail]

Churches have been a place of sanctuary for centuries.

If the guy is guilty, then he's a scumbag and deserves jail, but.....Do we really want to start invading churches (well, again) to enforce the law? I doubt these people are as committed as the Branch Davidians, but do we really want to find out?

[Avatar]

True, but on the other hand, do we want people starting "churches" so that they can have sanctuary whenever they want it?

--A

[Cail]

Well, this church wasn't just started.

And no, we don't want that.

But do we want the government bursting into buildings that house people who have nothing to do with that warrant?

I know it's a fine line, and I'm not comfortable with the idea of people scoffing at the law (allegedly), but I'm really not comfortable with the government invading churches.

[Avatar]

I'm in favour of taxing churches, and the whole 1 law for everybody thing. If somebody is a criminal, especially criminal in the "hurting other people" sense, then I don't think the fact that they're hiding in a church should be enough to stop them from being brought to account.

That said though, I do think that using the same tactics as Waco are definitely ill-advised.

--A

[jwaneeta]

Well, it looks like they managed to get in without burning the place down...

Law Enforcement Peacefully Enter Temple on the Grounds of a Polygamist Compound in West Texas


Officials escort two buses Friday April 4, 2008 from the retreat built by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, located near El Dorado, Texas. Child welfare officials and state troopers removed at least one busload of children from the secretive West Texas religious retreat built by polygamist leader Warren Jeffs following a complaint to state authorities. (AP Photo/Harry Cabluck)
04-06-2008 9:50 AM
By MICHELLE ROBERTS, Associated Press Writer

ELDORADO, Texas (Associated Press) -- Law enforcement agents entered an enormous temple on the grounds of a polygamist compound, but by Sunday morning they still had not found a 16-year-old girl whose initial report of abuse led to the raid.

"There were some tense moments last night, but everything has remained calm and peaceful and they are continuing their search," said Allison Palmer, a prosecutor from a nearby county handling the case, early Sunday.

More than 180 women and children were taken Friday and Saturday from the compound built by followers of polygamist leader Warren Jeffs, but Marleigh Meisner, a spokeswoman for Child Protective Services, said Sunday that investigators were still trying to determine whether the girl who called authorities last week was among them.

Many of the girls in the sect are related to one another and share similar names, Meisner said.

A busload of women were seen talking to law enforcement and a lawyer at a civic center early Sunday.

Palmer said Child Protective Services was still trying to identify the 16-year-old, and it wasn't clear if she was among those being interviewed or was even in the area.

State troopers armed with a search warrant raided the compound on Friday to look for evidence of a marriage between the girl, who allegedly had a baby at 15, and 50-year-old Dale Barlow.

Link

I'm all about religious freedom and the rights of people to follow whatever nutjob lights they have, but keeping underage girls in sexual slavery is a crime, eh. I think the authorities did the right thing -- and happily they didn't make a catastrophe out of it.

[emotional leper]

Do we extend the Right of Sanctuary to all places of Worship, or only churches?

Can I legally have the government prohibited from removing a criminal from my Sacred Grove if they've been granted Sanctuary?

[iQuestor]

Do we extend the Right of Sanctuary to all places of Worship, or only churches?

Can I legally have the government prohibited from removing a criminal from my Sacred Grove if they've been granted Sanctuary?

If you are recognized by the federal government as a religious group , I think so. I would have to check the laws.

[Cail]

Actually, I don't think there is an actual "sanctuary law" in the US. It's more of a customary thing (though I could be wrong).

Regardless, it's bad PR to bust down the doors of a church.

[emotional leper]

Isn't Sanctuary part of the English Common Law?

[duchess of malfi]

Warren Jeffs is one of the scummiest "human beings" in the face of the universe. He is someone who is notorious for using his twisted version of Mormonism for building harems of underage teenage girls for himself and hsi closest male followers. So basicly he uses religion as a platform for personal power and molesting young girls. He and other cult members have faced charges in several western states.

I think a question everyone in this thread should be asking is - what is the difference between religion and a cult of personal power and gain? Where does the line between privacy in religious practice and criminality begin? What happens when a religion teaches something that is simply disgusting, illegal, and immoral in the minds of 99% of the people in society at large? (in this case, forcing underage girls to become part of a harem, and letting the "husband" rape them?)

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

I'm fairly liberal in general, and very anti-authority as a rule.... but forget about it. I've got one red button, and that is the sexual abuse of children. I'd like to call myself a pacifist, but having directly experienced abuse and with very few outlets for my anger, I'd really prefer to see heads on pikes at this point. Intellectually I don't agree with this, but emotionally I feel like if that's what's been going on, (IF THAT IS WHAT HAS BEEN GOING ON) they should burn the place down on principle.

Sorry for the vehemence, but really, this is the only issue that gets me this way.

[emotional leper]

Warren Jeffs is one of the scummiest "human beings" in the face of the universe. He is someone who is notorious for using his twisted version of Mormonism for building harems of underage teenage girls for himself and hsi closest male followers. So basicly he uses religion as a platform for personal power and molesting young girls. He and other cult members have faced charges in several western states.

I think a question everyone in this thread should be asking is - what is the difference between religion and a cult of personal power and gain? Where does the line between privacy in religious practice and criminality begin? What happens when a religion teaches something that is simply disgusting, illegal, and immoral in the minds of 99% of the people in society at large? (in this case, forcing underage girls to become part of a harem, and letting the "husband" rape them?)

Ethnocentrism.

[Cail]

think a question everyone in this thread should be asking is - what is the difference between religion and a cult of personal power and gain? Where does the line between privacy in religious practice and criminality begin? What happens when a religion teaches something that is simply disgusting, illegal, and immoral in the minds of 99% of the people in society at large? (in this case, forcing underage girls to become part of a harem, and letting the "husband" rape them?)

The only thing that really matters is the legality. All else is subjective.

In simplest terms, the difference between a cult and a religion is popular acceptance. Sort of like the difference between a freedom fighter and a terrorist.

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

Ethnocentrism, sure. No question.
However, we all have to make decisions on a day to day basis. Having gone through sexual abuse myself, I'm here to tell you that it f***ed me up royally, before I understood that it was in any way illegal or frowned upon by society. Is it a cultural value? Sure, it turns out that it is... but I didn't need culture to tell me that I wanted it stopped.

[duchess of malfi]

Ethnocentrism, sure. No question.
However, we all have to make decisions on a day to day basis. Having gone through sexual abuse myself, I'm here to tell you that it f***ed me up royally, before I understood that it was in any way illegal or frowned upon by society. Is it a cultural value? Sure, it turns out that it is... but I didn't need culture to tell me that I wanted it stopped.

Same here. One of the few things in the world that truly pisses me off is child rape/molestation, because I was on the receiving end, and it is just plain evil and wrong and one of the worst things than can happen to anyone.

To read a lot of background on the Jeffs family, and the way he and his cronies molest girls by marrying them off to their older male relatives at very young ages (pretty much about the time they start having periods and can start having children of their own) - and the way they prevent cult members from speaking out about it - you can read a book called
Under the Banner of Heaven

These guys live in really remote areas in the American West, and in the past the local law enforcement and judges were in their group, so no one ever went after them. The states of Arizona and Utah have really been trying to crack down on the group in the last few years - with the full encouragement of the mainstream Mormon church, who really disapproves of this splinter sect.

It is pretty telling that there are public high schools on the Utah/Arizona border where this cult live where there has never been a female to graduate. Why not? They've all been married off in their early teens, and not allowed to even get a high school education.

[Cail]

Be that as it may, it was not only acceptable but expected for girls to marry off as soon as they reached child-bearing age in the not-too-distant past. Our cultural aversion to "underage" sex is a construct of our society, and a direct result of not needing additional farmhands or other laborers.

Edit-I want to make it clear that I'm in no way condoning adults having sex with minors, nor am I minimizing any pain caused by people that would do such a thing. I'm simply pointing out that this "wrongness" is relatively recent.

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

Sure, societally. However, I bet that the wedding night for the 13 year old girl with the 45 year old guy was kind of a bummer before the cultural mores shifted.

Edit: Side note, Cail, I think you've done more to shape my political and ethical views through opposition than anyone I've ever interacted with Disagreeing with you 90 percent of the time, and coming around to see your side of things 5% of the time, has altered my perception of reality.

[emotional leper]

Sure, societally. However, I bet that the wedding night for the 13 year old girl with the 45 year old guy was kind of a bummer before the cultural mores shifted.

You do understand that Romantic Love is an aberration, right?