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Weaving some of these Threads
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:15 pm
by Würd-o
He guided the Lord-Fatherer to the fashioning of the Staff of Law, a weapon against Despite.
-The quote refers to the Creator.
-But, the Theomach took on the role of Berek's guide.
-At least until he gave the Seven Words, and showed the way to the One Tree.
And stayed behind to guard it, until the Haruchai could satisfy themselves that they are the best guardians in the world, which of course meant that he could not prevent Foul from infiltrating the Lords, culminating in the Ritual of Desecration, and the loss of the Staff and the loss of the Words . . .
Oh, so then, the Theomach is the Creator, which makes Foul an opposing Insequent of some kind, and Kenaustin Ardenol bound a-Jeroth with the Arch of Time in an Insequent challenge, necessitating his involvement in preserving the system, though he could not lay hand to it directly.
Perhaps we begin to see why the author has said this work will explore the transcendental nature of mortal inadequacy. The Creator was once an ordinary mortal who made merry, and then decided to make a difference.
-Kenaustin Ardenol is the name of the Creator.
It would certainly explain how a culture with only seven books, some lost, could consistently speak from the deepest recesses of the O.E.D.
-And yet, a shroud is not a robe of ochre.
-Nor can an Insequent rise from the dead.
The Worm of the World's End is roused. Doesn't that mean every Elohim is Appointed?
*a chiaroscuro of bell peals*
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:22 pm
by dlbpharmd
The Theomach is not the Creator. For SRD to do that, everything we've ever been told about the limitations of the Creator would be untrue.
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:49 pm
by Würd-o
That would depend. Does the Theomach become a tool if he chooses as his bailiwick, his knowledge, his contemplation of lore, the enacting of the Creator's will even unto the destruction of his own identity? He's choosing it, not being used.
We could have a sort of Christ allegory going on. The mortal version of the Creator needing to die to save everyone. Thus, he clothes himself in a shroud.
Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:34 am
by MsMary
I also don't buy that the Theomach is the Creator.
Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:53 am
by Ur Dead
Legends of how Berek got to the one tree change over time. We're not sure what killed Alexander the Great but all we know is he died young.
So tales of how Berek got the first SoL is shrouded in mystery and speculation. People presume events differently over time. The story told in the first chronicles was told from that diluted viewpoint.
It's shrouded more when Brinn told his tale about the guardian and who he was in TOT.
SRD never really got into the detail about how it really happen. He just weaved a story from a distant view.
In the broad aspect, you can say yes, the creator was the guide. If you attribute that the creator made the Insequents race. Then he did so, by proxy, guided Berek. Like when he said his two words to TC before the first translation to the Land. He hoped that TC wouldn't fall before Foul's dispair. The creator was the force that made TC succeed.
Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:09 am
by dlbpharmd
We could have a sort of Christ allegory going on.
If this happens - if SRD takes a story that I love dearly and turns it into a CS Lewis knockoff - I will slit my wrists.
Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:26 pm
by Würd-o
I don't think he would do it like CS Lewis. They are not the same author. But, nor does SRD play irresponsibly with language, foreshadowing, and loose ends. Although yes, the quote is Atiaran quoting the lorewardens, still the author chose those words to express the story. The Creator guided the fashioning of the staff of Law. Now, in FR we see that the Theomach guided the fashioning of the staff. The Creator can guide, but cannot take hand. The Theomach can not be a tool, or he risks the arch. But, what about a willing tool? What about a divinatory mortal who is so powerful he can be the Creator's willing surrogate, not through possession, but by exploring the Creator's own mind through his theurgies? Becoming one on earth, stepping outside of Time to protect the Arch, and biding as Hand of the Creator until the Arch is toppling anyway, so that the Creator's foe can be dealt with? I think it's worth contemplating. And, I don't think it would lessen this saga to play with such a universal theme as mortality transcending to the divine. Hasn't Covenant already echoed the Christ allegory, dying for the salvation of the world, flawed though he was? Nor can we ignore the significance of his name. A covenant is a promise from God. Thomas was the doubter. This series could also be titled The Thomas Covenant and make sense. The author isn't wholly unconcerned with these themes. Now, having said that, perhaps using the C-word was a mistake, since this storytelling device is much more than two-thousand eight years old. Many mythos use it. Worm's gullet! SRD would certainly lend such a treatment his own talent, and make it his own. I would be content if it is well done. Hold your instrument! Ward your wrists. The Clave are millennia dead. No blood need flow.
Besisdes, I think SRD is a pananthest if anything real world Judeo-Christian, and his Creator is not unapproachable.
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:22 pm
by Berenford
And, as I'm sure someone has already pointed out elsewhere, "The Theomach" is an interesting name given that theo = God and mach = make, create. But would Donaldson really be this transparent? (On the other hand, Anele = Elena backwards...)
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:01 pm
by amanibhavam
Yes but the latter is unintentional, and I do not think SRD wanted to mislead us when he mentioned it in the GI.
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:02 pm
by amanibhavam
Unless we find out in the last 2 books that The Creator's (or an Insequent's whom we have not yet met) true name is Luof, that is.
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:35 pm
by Rigel
A theomach is one who fights against God / the Gods - a perfect name for someone who managed to defeat an Elohim.
As for Anele, I always assumed it was a pun on "anneal", which would hint at his future role.
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:37 pm
by Relayer
Agreed on both counts.
Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:55 pm
by sweetbread
amanibhavam wrote:Unless we find out in the last 2 books that The Creator's (or an Insequent's whom we have not yet met) true name is Luof, that is.
A quick scan of SRD's "My Documents" folder reveals the following:
Linden lifted her head to the skies above, casting her eyes towards the plume of Dirt that gathered above Andelain like a thunderhead. Her healthsense conveyed to her the atrocities that were being committed there; the atrocities that her companions could not see.
Damnit Esmer, so this is your betrayal?
But this Dirt was different; it was unlike Kevin's Dirt. From afar, it lacked the general sense of wrongness that Linden had seen from Kevin's Watch. Malice seemed to writhe within this Dirt; hatred boiled within, searching for release. Linden saw what was transpiring in Andelain, over 500 leagues away. Her healthsense showed her the the yellow flashes of lightning as they coruscated through the hills. She saw the ground erupt in violence, heaving earth, vegetation, and Earthpower into the air in bouts of fury that could be mocking Esmer's storms. In the instant that her healthsense showed her that horrors that the Dead of Andelain were now subjected to, her resolve was set in stone. She knew what she needed to do now.
"Linden don't...." Covenant's warning trailed off, the importance in his voice went unnoticed.
The tension mounted around her as she stared to the east. The Giants seemed to shuffle restlessly, the haruchai seemed anxious in their composure, like a rubberband stretched taunt. Even the Rhanyhyn seemed to glance around nervously.
Covenant knew that he would be bent to Linden's will. For a moment, his eyes fell upon the gold chain glittering around the back of Linden's neck. If only there were a break in the chain, the chain which held Covenant's white gold ring around Linden's neck, then the ring would fall and Covenant would be free at last; free to protect the time and free from the madness that consumed Linden.
Slowly, he began to stretch his hand towards Linden's neck when she opened her mouth.
"Louf Drol, I compel you!"
The words were no more than a hoarse whisper from Linden's throat, barely loud enough to be heard by Liand. Yet almost immediately, the azure of the afternoon directly in front of her was torn like Martiir's shirt, revealing darkness that was as impenetrable as the Harrow's eyes. A pair of yellow eyes formed within the darkness, around which the darkness swirled and formed and took shape into a man, or at least the figure of a man. The silken darkness wrapped him from head to toe in a mockery of the Theomach's raiment; only his yellow eyes shone from behind the veil of darkness.
Before Linden Avery, Wildwielder and Chosen, stood Louf Drol. She could not hear the cries of alarm from her companions, nor did she hear the warnings the emanated from every thread of her Heathsense. The only sound that fell upon Linden's ears, was the insidious, mocking, laughter from the father of the Insequent.
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:25 pm
by wayfriend
I can't find anything in the text that shows that the Theomach knew where the One Tree was, any more than Berek did. He sought it on Berek's behalf, but he still sought it.
On the other hand, if he has knowledge of the future, he might have knowledge of where Berek would find it. I don't lean this way, however -- supposedly he is reknowned for finding it, and it would not be reknown-worthy if he knew where it was all along.
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:57 pm
by shadowbinding shoe
I thought the thing he was renowned for was defeating the previous One Tree guardian which was an Elohim. Where does it say he was famous for finding it? A lore wise being like him would surely have learned the location beforehand?